TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

Zafer · Jan 29, 2024

Sai said:
KF21 is more like a 4.5-gen. It do not super cruise and has no internal bay.

We are talking about making the plane reliable enough to go to production which makes it reliable enough to test prototype engines with and not about actually going into production.

Bozan · Jan 29, 2024

Has any of the manufacturing process been shown ?

Sai · Jan 29, 2024

Bozan said:
Has any of the manufacturing process been shown ?

View attachment 65135

KF21? Report says they will commence production starting this year. The Korean aerospace industry is very mature, so it's very possible. But they are rushing to capture the market, for sure.

Bozan · Jan 29, 2024

Sai said:
KF21? Report says they will commence production starting this year. The Korean aerospace industry is very mature, so it's very possible. But they are rushing to capture the market, for sure.

No, Kaan

Rooxbar · Jan 29, 2024

Bozan said:
No, Kaan

Well, yeah. Too much of it actually if you ask me.

Spitfire9 · Jan 29, 2024

Sai said:
India waited for the engine deal. She didn't want to rely on American Engines; they can cut off supply at any time. Recently, France and India agreed on joint collaboration to make a 110KN engine. So now, funds will be released. CCS approval was stalled in April 2023. But I am guessing KAAN will be out before AMCA anyway.

Until a contract between India and Dassault is signed including exactly what is required of a new engine, what techologies are to be transferred from Safran, workshare breakdown, cost etc - it's not a done deal. I will not be surprised if CCS approval is stalled until after engine contract signature.

PS Turkiye is in a different position. While developing an engine for AMCA within 10 years looks impossible for India on her own, developing an engine for Kaan within 10 years does not look impossible for Turkiye on her own.

TR_123456 · Jan 29, 2024

mohammadtd said:
What is the status today for domestic engine? is it in design phase? or prototype building phase? Thank you in advance.

Currently,they are working on the TF10000 engine,after this TF35000(KAAN engine).

Chocopie · Jan 29, 2024

Sai said:
KF21? Report says they will commence production starting this year. The Korean aerospace industry is very mature, so it's very possible. But they are rushing to capture the market, for sure.

Koreans rushing because we urgently need to replace ageing 80 F-5E/F and 19 F-4 Phantom II fighter jets which are literally falling from the sky due to mechanical failures and airframe fatigue.

ROKAF has postponed retirement of both aircraft models several times. A dozen crashes since 2000 are killing our pilots. The first batch of 20 KF-21 Block I (LRIP 2024-2026) is for domestic use only - production for export market unthinkable before 2028-2030.

Spitfire9 · Jan 29, 2024

Chocopie said:
Koreans rushing because we urgently need to replace ageing 80 F-5E/F and 19 F-4 Phantom II fighter jets which are literally falling from the sky due to mechanical failures and airframe fatigue.

ROKAF has postponed retirement of both aircraft models several times. A dozen crashes since 2000 are killing our pilots. The first batch of 20 KF-21 Block I (LRIP 2024-2026) is for domestic use only - production for export market unthinkable before 2028-2030.

I think that KF-21 and Kaan are planned for a production rate of 20 a year. If, for example, Philippines wanted to order, would KAI raise the production rate? Same thing could be asked if a country wanted to order Kaan in its early production years.

Chocopie · Jan 29, 2024

Spitfire9 said:
I think that KF-21 and Kaan are planned for a production rate of 20 a year. If, for example, Philippines wanted to order, would KAI raise the production rate? Same thing could be asked if a country wanted to order Kaan in its early production years.

Depends on sales. KAI opened new production lines due to high demand and raised annual capacity from 36 up to 48 for T-50/TA-50/FA-50 series.

KF-21 is estimated to reach a rate of 2-3 per month, so 24+ units annually if all production kinks are smoothed out.

Cash strapped countries like Philippines usually order very small batches not more than 12 units: that wouldn‘t be enough IMO to open new production lines. Highly automated smart factory lines are very expensive to set up although flexibly scalable.

dBSPL · Jan 29, 2024

Spitfire9 said:
I think that KF-21 and Kaan are planned for a production rate of 20 a year. If, for example, Philippines wanted to order, would KAI raise the production rate? Same thing could be asked if a country wanted to order Kaan in its early production years.

The production line being set up for KAAN has been planned according to the capacity to rollout two aircraft per month starting from 2029. The main plan is 24 per year, but it was stated directly by the TAI GM that there is a plan to exceed this in case of external demand. In the 2030s, deliveries will be made not only to the TAF, but also to the Azerbaijan Air Force, which is participating in the development phase of the program. Accordingly, an off-set agreement with Azerbaijan is also on the agenda. In a broader plan, Azerbaijan will be among the main operator countries for most of the aviation programs under development in Turkiye, as these platforms enter mass production.

If I turn to TAI, in the 2020-2030 period, it will be a company that has grown several times in terms of closed area and machine park on the fixed wing aircraft side. Since we don't bring it up on every page here, it has been left behind, but in the Ankara Kazan Space and Aviation Specialized Organized Industrial Zone, probably the largest aviation organized industrial zone in Europe is being established, including TAI and other KAAN subsystem suppliers. We can say that the main infrastructure and machinery investments are already geared towards production side. If we can successfully carry KAAN to that stage, I believe that our work will be a little more comfortable as we have already taken early measures on the production side.

Huelague · Jan 29, 2024

@MADDOG
Can we expect an advanced nozzle design in the future and maybe a multi TVC?

Scott Summers · Jan 29, 2024

dBSPL said:
The production line being set up for KAAN has been planned according to the capacity to rollout two aircraft per month starting from 2029. The main plan is 24 per year, but it was stated directly by the TAI GM that there is a plan to exceed this in case of external demand. In the 2030s, deliveries will be made not only to the TAF, but also to the Azerbaijan Air Force, which is participating in the development phase of the program. Accordingly, an off-set agreement with Azerbaijan is also on the agenda. In a broader plan, Azerbaijan will be among the main operator countries for most of the aviation programs under development in Turkiye, as these platforms enter mass production.

If I turn to TAI, in the 2020-2030 period, it will be a company that has grown several times in terms of closed area and machine park on the fixed wing aircraft side. Since we don't bring it up on every page here, it has been left behind, but in the Ankara Kazan Space and Aviation Specialized Organized Industrial Zone, probably the largest aviation organized industrial zone in Europe is being established, including TAI and other KAAN subsystem suppliers. We can say that the main infrastructure and machinery investments are already geared towards production side. If we can successfully carry KAAN to that stage, I believe that our work will be a little more comfortable as we have already taken early measures on the production side.

Not a good idea to let Azerbaijan unconditionally participate in our Wunderwaffen-programs.

Azerbaijan is a very Israel-friendly country and the Mossad is everywhere in Azerbaijan. Definitely not a good idea.

Windchime · Jan 29, 2024

DBdev said:
That's not how engines work. You can't synchronize or control 2 different engines without destroying the plane. It is tricky as it gets when its the same make and model.

Why do you think so? There's FADEC these days so there are much more flexibility in terms of how you operate engines.

Chocopie said:
Koreans rushing because we urgently need to replace ageing 80 F-5E/F and 19 F-4 Phantom II fighter jets which are literally falling from the sky due to mechanical failures and airframe fatigue.

ROKAF has postponed retirement of both aircraft models several times. A dozen crashes since 2000 are killing our pilots. The first batch of 20 KF-21 Block I (LRIP 2024-2026) is for domestic use only - production for export market unthinkable before 2028-2030.

No, F-4s are already being replaced by F-35s, hence they are going to be retired this year. KF-21 is replacing the F-5 variants and F-16PBU.

Chocopie · Jan 29, 2024

Windchime said:
No, F-4s are already being replaced by F-35s, hence they are going to be retired this year. KF-21 is replacing the F-5 variants and F-16PBU.

True, retirement of the last F-4 squadron in Suwon this June 2024 already

I was mistaken they would fly as long as F-5s until ~2030.

So, then only Türkiye, Greece and Iran left with active F-4E Phantoms!

Farewell post with cool old F-4 pics (in Korean): https://www.joongang.co.kr/article/25225062

Sai · Jan 29, 2024

Spitfire9 said:
Until a contract between India and Dassault is signed including exactly what is required of a new engine, what techologies are to be transferred from Safran, workshare breakdown, cost etc - it's not a done deal. I will not be surprised if CCS approval is stalled until after engine contract signature.

PS Turkiye is in a different position. While developing an engine for AMCA within 10 years looks impossible for India on her own, developing an engine for Kaan within 10 years does not look impossible for Turkiye on her own.

I am very aware of Turkiye capabilities, but building a jet engine is no easy task. Even China, which has reverse-engineered Soviet engines and stolen data from the US, took them two decades. And they have spent huge chunks of money on the engine program. I am not talking about TF10000, but if TAI managed to make a reliable TF35000 (155KN) engine within a decade, that would become a turning point in the Turkish defense industry.

Zafer · Jan 29, 2024

Sai said:
I am very aware of Turkiye capabilities, but building a jet engine is no easy task. Even China, which has reverse-engineered Soviet engines and stolen data from the US, took them two decades. And they have spent huge chunks of money on the engine program. I am not talking about TF10000, but if TAI managed to make a reliable TF35000 (155KN) engine within a decade, that would become a turning point in the Turkish defense industry.

Modern engineering tools that were not available 5-10 years in the past such as machine learning, high fidelity simulation, AI, additive manufacturing and more can help speed up the development process.

Isbara · Jan 30, 2024

Spitfire9 said:
Does anybody seriously believe that Kaan will fly with a domestic engine before the 2030's? The 2028 target is based on what? Optimism of the most extreme order, I think. Or nothing at all - just a convenient, fictitious date.

Is there some need to convey the impression that if the US blocked F110 supplies due to political differences, it would not cripple the programme since Turkiye would only need it during the prototype development and testing phase?

And on the other hand, there's no project declared by the officals yet. Kale, TrMotor, TEI all talking about their efforts to develop Kaan's engines but there's no ongoing official project.

Strong AI · Jan 30, 2024

Isbara said:
And on the other hand, there's no project declared by the officals yet. Kale, TrMotor, TEI all talking about their efforts to develop Kaan's engines but there's no ongoing official project.

Sure. And Haluk Görgün is no official, right?

"A separate team has been working on KAAN's engine for a long time. TR Motor is part of this process. Our plan is for our self-produced engine to meet the requirements for mass production."

Görgün, explaining that the platform and engine development started together, said, "We began with a motor design that could meet the thrust and energy needs of the aircraft, and it continues. We do not want any situation where we cannot obtain our engine when we start mass production. There is no partnership in KAAN's engine production in Turkey."

Sai · Jan 30, 2024

Zafer said:
Modern engineering tools that were not available 5-10 years in the past such as machine learning, high fidelity simulation, AI, additive manufacturing and more can help speed up the development process.

No sir, they won't help much. There is a huge difference between TF35000 and TF10000. Why? You see, as the thrust requirement increases, the intake temperature at the turbine increases. The only limit on this temperature is due to metallurgical constraints. And no one will share with you the metallurgy because this is decades of research. Even in the US-India F414 engine deal, where the US agreed to share 80% of the TOT, the metallurgy details were not included. China has struggled with jet engine technology for years. Why? The jet engine blades run at extreme temperatures, and the challenge of overcoming the heat problem has plagued China until now. The blades overheated at higher output levels, causing premature failure and forcing engineers to reduce power output so the engines would have a reasonable lifespan. Aerodynamics, thermodynamics, material science, structural integrity, and control systems are very complex for optimized performance and efficiency. It is no easy task to bring a high-thrust output engine to life in less than a decade.

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