TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Chocopie]

KF21? Report says they will commence production starting this year. The Korean aerospace industry is very mature, so it's very possible. But they are rushing to capture the market, for sure.

Koreans rushing because we urgently need to replace ageing 80 F-5E/F and 19 F-4 Phantom II fighter jets which are literally falling from the sky due to mechanical failures and airframe fatigue.

ROKAF has postponed retirement of both aircraft models several times. A dozen crashes since 2000 are killing our pilots. The first batch of 20 KF-21 Block I (LRIP 2024-2026) is for domestic use only - production for export market unthinkable before 2028-2030.

 

[Spitfire9]

Koreans rushing because we urgently need to replace ageing 80 F-5E/F and 19 F-4 Phantom II fighter jets which are literally falling from the sky due to mechanical failures and airframe fatigue.

ROKAF has postponed retirement of both aircraft models several times. A dozen crashes since 2000 are killing our pilots. The first batch of 20 KF-21 Block I (LRIP 2024-2026) is for domestic use only - production for export market unthinkable before 2028-2030.

I think that KF-21 and Kaan are planned for a production rate of 20 a year. If, for example, Philippines wanted to order, would KAI raise the production rate? Same thing could be asked if a country wanted to order Kaan in its early production years.

 

[Chocopie]

I think that KF-21 and Kaan are planned for a production rate of 20 a year. If, for example, Philippines wanted to order, would KAI raise the production rate? Same thing could be asked if a country wanted to order Kaan in its early production years.

Depends on sales. KAI opened new production lines due to high demand and raised annual capacity from 36 up to 48 for T-50/TA-50/FA-50 series.

KF-21 is estimated to reach a rate of 2-3 per month, so 24+ units annually if all production kinks are smoothed out.

Cash strapped countries like Philippines usually order very small batches not more than 12 units: that wouldn‘t be enough IMO to open new production lines. Highly automated smart factory lines are very expensive to set up although flexibly scalable.

 

[dBSPL]

I think that KF-21 and Kaan are planned for a production rate of 20 a year. If, for example, Philippines wanted to order, would KAI raise the production rate? Same thing could be asked if a country wanted to order Kaan in its early production years.

The production line being set up for KAAN has been planned according to the capacity to rollout two aircraft per month starting from 2029. The main plan is 24 per year, but it was stated directly by the TAI GM that there is a plan to exceed this in case of external demand. In the 2030s, deliveries will be made not only to the TAF, but also to the Azerbaijan Air Force, which is participating in the development phase of the program. Accordingly, an off-set agreement with Azerbaijan is also on the agenda. In a broader plan, Azerbaijan will be among the main operator countries for most of the aviation programs under development in Turkiye, as these platforms enter mass production.


If I turn to TAI, in the 2020-2030 period, it will be a company that has grown several times in terms of closed area and machine park on the fixed wing aircraft side. Since we don't bring it up on every page here, it has been left behind, but in the Ankara Kazan Space and Aviation Specialized Organized Industrial Zone, probably the largest aviation organized industrial zone in Europe is being established, including TAI and other KAAN subsystem suppliers. We can say that the main infrastructure and machinery investments are already geared towards production side. If we can successfully carry KAAN to that stage, I believe that our work will be a little more comfortable as we have already taken early measures on the production side.

 

[Huelague]

@MADDOG
Can we expect an advanced nozzle design in the future and maybe a multi TVC?

 

[Scott Summers]

The production line being set up for KAAN has been planned according to the capacity to rollout two aircraft per month starting from 2029. The main plan is 24 per year, but it was stated directly by the TAI GM that there is a plan to exceed this in case of external demand. In the 2030s, deliveries will be made not only to the TAF, but also to the Azerbaijan Air Force, which is participating in the development phase of the program. Accordingly, an off-set agreement with Azerbaijan is also on the agenda. In a broader plan, Azerbaijan will be among the main operator countries for most of the aviation programs under development in Turkiye, as these platforms enter mass production.


If I turn to TAI, in the 2020-2030 period, it will be a company that has grown several times in terms of closed area and machine park on the fixed wing aircraft side. Since we don't bring it up on every page here, it has been left behind, but in the Ankara Kazan Space and Aviation Specialized Organized Industrial Zone, probably the largest aviation organized industrial zone in Europe is being established, including TAI and other KAAN subsystem suppliers. We can say that the main infrastructure and machinery investments are already geared towards production side. If we can successfully carry KAAN to that stage, I believe that our work will be a little more comfortable as we have already taken early measures on the production side.

Not a good idea to let Azerbaijan unconditionally participate in our Wunderwaffen-programs.

Azerbaijan is a very Israel-friendly country and the Mossad is everywhere in Azerbaijan. Definitely not a good idea.

 

[Windchime]

That's not how engines work. You can't synchronize or control 2 different engines without destroying the plane. It is tricky as it gets when its the same make and model.

Why do you think so? There's FADEC these days so there are much more flexibility in terms of how you operate engines.

Koreans rushing because we urgently need to replace ageing 80 F-5E/F and 19 F-4 Phantom II fighter jets which are literally falling from the sky due to mechanical failures and airframe fatigue.

ROKAF has postponed retirement of both aircraft models several times. A dozen crashes since 2000 are killing our pilots. The first batch of 20 KF-21 Block I (LRIP 2024-2026) is for domestic use only - production for export market unthinkable before 2028-2030.

No, F-4s are already being replaced by F-35s, hence they are going to be retired this year. KF-21 is replacing the F-5 variants and F-16PBU.

 

[Chocopie]

No, F-4s are already being replaced by F-35s, hence they are going to be retired this year. KF-21 is replacing the F-5 variants and F-16PBU.

True, retirement of the last F-4 squadron in Suwon this June 2024 already

I was mistaken they would fly as long as F-5s until ~2030.

So, then only Türkiye, Greece and Iran left with active F-4E Phantoms!

Farewell post with cool old F-4 pics (in Korean): https://www.joongang.co.kr/article/25225062

 

[Sai]

Until a contract between India and Dassault is signed including exactly what is required of a new engine, what techologies are to be transferred from Safran, workshare breakdown, cost etc - it's not a done deal. I will not be surprised if CCS approval is stalled until after engine contract signature.

PS Turkiye is in a different position. While developing an engine for AMCA within 10 years looks impossible for India on her own, developing an engine for Kaan within 10 years does not look impossible for Turkiye on her own.

I am very aware of Turkiye capabilities, but building a jet engine is no easy task. Even China, which has reverse-engineered Soviet engines and stolen data from the US, took them two decades. And they have spent huge chunks of money on the engine program. I am not talking about TF10000, but if TAI managed to make a reliable TF35000 (155KN) engine within a decade, that would become a turning point in the Turkish defense industry.

 

[Zafer]

I am very aware of Turkiye capabilities, but building a jet engine is no easy task. Even China, which has reverse-engineered Soviet engines and stolen data from the US, took them two decades. And they have spent huge chunks of money on the engine program. I am not talking about TF10000, but if TAI managed to make a reliable TF35000 (155KN) engine within a decade, that would become a turning point in the Turkish defense industry.

Modern engineering tools that were not available 5-10 years in the past such as machine learning, high fidelity simulation, AI, additive manufacturing and more can help speed up the development process.

 

[Isbara]

Does anybody seriously believe that Kaan will fly with a domestic engine before the 2030's? The 2028 target is based on what? Optimism of the most extreme order, I think. Or nothing at all - just a convenient, fictitious date.

Is there some need to convey the impression that if the US blocked F110 supplies due to political differences, it would not cripple the programme since Turkiye would only need it during the prototype development and testing phase?

And on the other hand, there's no project declared by the officals yet. Kale, TrMotor, TEI all talking about their efforts to develop Kaan's engines but there's no ongoing official project.

 

[Sai]

Modern engineering tools that were not available 5-10 years in the past such as machine learning, high fidelity simulation, AI, additive manufacturing and more can help speed up the development process.

No sir, they won't help much. There is a huge difference between TF35000 and TF10000. Why? You see, as the thrust requirement increases, the intake temperature at the turbine increases. The only limit on this temperature is due to metallurgical constraints. And no one will share with you the metallurgy because this is decades of research. Even in the US-India F414 engine deal, where the US agreed to share 80% of the TOT, the metallurgy details were not included. China has struggled with jet engine technology for years. Why? The jet engine blades run at extreme temperatures, and the challenge of overcoming the heat problem has plagued China until now. The blades overheated at higher output levels, causing premature failure and forcing engineers to reduce power output so the engines would have a reasonable lifespan. Aerodynamics, thermodynamics, material science, structural integrity, and control systems are very complex for optimized performance and efficiency. It is no easy task to bring a high-thrust output engine to life in less than a decade.

 

[Zafer]

No sir, they won't help much. There is a huge difference between TF35000 and TF10000. Why? You see, as the thrust requirement increases, the intake temperature at the turbine increases. The only limit on this temperature is due to metallurgical constraints. And no one will share with you the metallurgy because this is decades of research. Even in the US-India F414 engine deal, where the US agreed to share 80% of the TOT, the metallurgy details were not included. China has struggled with jet engine technology for years. Why? The jet engine blades run at extreme temperatures, and the challenge of overcoming the heat problem has plagued China until now. The blades overheated at higher output levels, causing premature failure and forcing engineers to reduce power output so the engines would have a reasonable lifespan. Aerodynamics, thermodynamics, material science, structural integrity, and control systems are very complex for optimized performance and efficiency. It is no easy task to bring a high-thrust output engine to life in less than a decade.

Even protein folding research benefit from advanced technology so will metallurgy field. As far as we can see Türkiye has already achieved some levels in hot section parts of engines. I guess we can achieve F110 engine power levelc already and looking for better performance. We will know what we are made of when the engine is built. Or I would say as early as when the TF10000 is built.

 

[Isbara]

Sure. And Haluk Görgün is no official, right?

"A separate team has been working on KAAN's engine for a long time. TR Motor is part of this process. Our plan is for our self-produced engine to meet the requirements for mass production."

Görgün, explaining that the platform and engine development started together, said, "We began with a motor design that could meet the thrust and energy needs of the aircraft, and it continues. We do not want any situation where we cannot obtain our engine when we start mass production. There is no partnership in KAAN's engine production in Turkey."

Is there any project annaunced by the SSB or MSB ? No..
We all know something going on about this matter but there's nothing clear. What made you think that I'm unaware of Mr. Gorgun's statements but that's not the case.
Kale is working on something, TrMotor've been working on something so does TEI ? But who is actually responsible for the project ? Who's the main contractor ? Who are the sub-contractors ? Many things still remain undecided.

 

[Zafer]

Is there any project annaunced by the SSB or MSB ? No..
We all know something going on about this matter but there's nothing clear. What made you think that I'm unaware of Mr. Gorgun's statements but that's not the case.
Kale is working on something, TrMotor've been working on something so does TEI ? But who is actually responsible for the project ? Who's the main contractor ? Who are the sub-contractors ? Many things still remain undecided.

It is TR Motor's job to design the engine, TEI's job to manufacture it and other companies can be used to outsource parts production.

 

[Iskander]

Not a good idea to let Azerbaijan unconditionally participate in our Wunderwaffen-programs.

Azerbaijan is a very Israel-friendly country and the Mossad is everywhere in Azerbaijan. Definitely not a good idea.

It is wrong to imagine that Mossad agents in groups of 3-5 people roam the central streets of Baku, as if at home, in search of how to harm the interests of Turkiye here or learn its secrets.
As for KAAN, Azerbaijan is confidently ahead of everyone in the queue for its acquisition. No Italians will be able to elbow us out of here

 

[Scott Summers]

You probably don't know that we at the UN always vote for Palestine and against Israel! But, despite this, Israel has always supported us in the Karabakh problem and even during the war did not stop supplying us with weapons. This may seem counterintuitive, but it is nonetheless true. Nobody sold us the weapons that we purchased from them 15 years ago. Türkiye either did not have them or did not have the right to export them. I can give you a whole list.
It is wrong to imagine that Mossad agents in groups of 3-5 people roam the central streets of Baku, as if at home, in search of how to harm the interests of Turkiye here or learn its secrets.
As for KAAN, Azerbaijan is confidently ahead of everyone in the queue for its acquisition. No Italians will be able to elbow us out of here

It's not about Israel only. Azerbaijan has a own foreign policy and must defend their interests. That is logical. But fact is that the intelligence services of Azerbaijan and Israel work together at high levels.

But Turkey has is own interests too and should not share their newest technologies of category A directly with other countries, even if that is Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Pakistan etc.

We can share the tech of a 5th gen fighter after we produced a 6th gen fighter. Like Russia only exported the S400 after they produced the S500.

The USA for example doesnt sell the F-22 Raptor to any friendly country, not even to Israel.

Your countries highest tech should only remain in your own country.

 

[Afif]

It's not about Israel only. Azerbaijan has a own foreign policy and must defend their interests. That is logical. But fact is that the intelligence services of Azerbaijan and Israel work together at high levels.

But Turkey has is own interests too and should not share their newest technologies of category A directly with other countries, even if that is Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Pakistan etc.

We can share the tech of a 5th gen fighter after we produced a 6th gen fighter. Like Russia only exported the S400 after they produced the S500.

The USA for example doesnt sell the F-22 Raptor to any friendly country, not even to Israel.

Your countries highest tech should only remain in your own country.

Except that is not how it works. USA do sell its latest product, I.e. F-35.
Which is no less than F-22. UK, Italy & Japan is planning to export Tempset. S-500 isn't an upgrade of S-400. It is different system. Neither replaces the other. And Russisa did try to market S-500 to India.

But more importantly, no exporter country is sharing any tech. Where did you get the idea exporting means sharing tech? USA didn't share any sensetive tech of F-35 with any of the partner country. Also, trying to reverse engineer anything require dismantling the platform. No country can do that without being caught.

 

[Sai]

Except that is not how to works. USA do sell its latest product, I.e. F-35.
Which is no less than F-22. UK, Italy & Japan is planning to export Tempset. S-500 isn't an upgrade of S-400. It is different system. Neither replaces the other. And Russisa did try to market S-500 to India.

But more importantly, no exporter country is sharing any tech. Where did you get the idea exporting means sharing tech? USA didn't share any sensetive tech of F-35 with any of the partner country. Also, trying to reverse engineer anything require dismantling the whole platform. No country can do that without being caught.

True to some extent. But export versions are always downgraded versions of the original ones.

 

[DBdev]

The USA for example doesnt sell the F-22 Raptor to any friendly country, not even to Israel.
Your countries highest tech should only remain in your own country.

If America can sell F-35s, a plane that now beats F22 easily on Red Flag without compromising it's national security so can we sell KAAN without creating any national security problems for us. It is all in the software. Codes will stay with us. So will the true control of the planes.

I say sell it to every nation under the sun with money to order at least 10 billion USD KAAN contracts except those known to have advanced reverse engineering capabilities, like Korea, Japan and West.

Also RCS of American F35s and the export versions are not the same. It can even be adjusted for each country the way RAM skin of our F35s were looking completely different from all others not just American ones.