TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

"i wAs DeCieVeD"

Yasar_TR said:

Japan Offers IHI XF9-1 Engine for India’s AMCA Program, GTRE Invited for Technical Review Amid Global Competition - Indian Defence Research Wing

SOURCE: RAUNAK KUNDE / NEWS BEAT / IDRW.ORG In a significant development for India’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program, Japan has offered its advanced IHI XF9-1 low-bypass afterburning turbofan engine for co-development and potential local production, as first reported by Indian...

idrw.org

Japan has offered XF9-1 engine to India for their AMCA stealth fighter.

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Just would like to mention idrw, dsa, eurasiantimes and some other sites like that are more "rumour mill for rumour mill sake" kind of fluff mostly.

Past that, IHI and Japanese defence ecosystem in general are very US-reliant (in the IP or geopolitically past that). If and when that XF9 engine matures to something applied in the end as it does, US will very likely veto anything (in their ally ecosystem) to whomever they are already vetoing against on their end for their own engines.

There s one thing that is most disturbing about the latest meeting between Trump and RTE.
When asked about if F35 planes will be delivered to Turkey and Caatsa sanctions will be lifted, Trump said “First, Mr Erdogan needs to do something for me. Then we will see”

This means that there is a difficult decision to be made by RTE. And the lifting of Caatsa etc will depend on the outcome of that decision.

If we were to elaborate and extrapolate from similar events:

1. US has asked Japan and South Korea to invest in USA so that they will get favourable customs duty tariffs. For the two nations this is in excess of 900 billion dollars. In fact recently they have been asked to make this as an upfront cash payment. Has he asked RTE for something similar?

2. Is it something to do with rich Rare-Earth ore we have in Eskisehir?

3. Has he been asked to give large concessions in Syria?

4. Has he been asked to relinquish S400 in one way or another? Has he been asked to stop all oil and gas trade with Russia?

5. Is Baykar’s potential investment in US, part of point 1?

Something smells real dirty and fishy with all this at the aftermath of the meeting at White House.

Nilgiri said:

Just would like to mention idrw, dsa, eurasiantimes and some other sites like that are more "rumour mill for rumour mill sake" kind of fluff mostly.

Past that, IHI and Japanese defence ecosystem in general are very US-reliant (in the IP or geopolitically past that). If and when that XF9 engine matures to something applied in the end as it does, US will very likely veto anything (in their ally ecosystem) to whomever they are already vetoing against on their end for their own engines.

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These two sites seem quite confident about the legitimacy of the news. These are not the only ones by the way. There are quite a few that claim that the Japanese have offered xf9 engine.

Whether it is wishful thinking or fake news, it is however the right type of engine that AMCA needs albeit being on the higher thrust than required side. With 2 x 24250lbf dry thrust, AMCA wouldn‘t need an afterburner. I guess the engine core can be de tuned to bring down thrust level.

Of course, the issue of US interference is a big handicap to overcome. Both for Turkiye and India.

Yasar_TR said:

There s one thing that is most disturbing about the latest meeting between Trump and RTE.
When asked about if F35 planes will be delivered to Turkey and Caatsa sanctions will be lifted, Trump said “First, Mr Erdogan needs to do something for me. Then we will see”

This means that there is a difficult decision to be made by RTE. And the lifting of Caatsa etc will depend on the outcome of that decision.

If we were to elaborate and extrapolate from similar events:

1. US has asked Japan and South Korea to invest in USA so that they will get favourable customs duty tariffs. For the two nations this is in excess of 900 billion dollars. In fact recently they have been asked to make this as an upfront cash payment. Has he asked RTE for something similar?

2. Is it something to do with rich Rare-Earth ore we have in Eskisehir?

3. Has he been asked to give large concessions in Syria?

4. Has he been asked to relinquish S400 in one way or another? Has he been asked to stop all oil and gas trade with Russia?

5. Is Baykar’s potential investment in US, part of point 1?

Something smells real dirty and fishy with all this at the aftermath of the meeting at White House.

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I think the quickest way is to hand over the keys to Turkiye to Israel and the US.

We are experiencing an example of how a country cannot be governed.

May Allah have mercy on us and save us from this politicians. Otherwise, our childs, youngs and destiny will be squandered in the hands of politicians.

Currently, no party has the capacity or awareness to govern Turkiye.

Yasar_TR said:

Japan's XF9-1 Engine Offers A Scalable Power Solution for India's AMCA Fighter, Allowing Future-Ready Upgrades for 6th-Gen Variants

Japan has officially offered its state-of-the-art IHI XF9-1 engine to India for co-development and domestic manufacturing, positioning it as a powerful contender to be the heart of the nation's...

defence.in

Rolls-Royce Offers Jet Engine Co-Development Deal to India, Aims to Outpace Japanese Competition - Global View

In a high-stakes bid to power India's next-generation fighter aircraft, Rolls-Royce has offered to co-develop and manufacture a jet engine tailored to Indian requirements, potentially boosting thrust capacity up to 280 kN. This move follows Japan’s rare offer of its XF9-1 engine and signals...

globalview.org.in

These two sites seem quite confident about the legitimacy of the news. These are not the only ones by the way. There are quite a few that claim that the Japanese have offered xf9 engine.

Whether it is wishful thinking or fake news, it is however the right type of engine that AMCA needs albeit being on the higher thrust than required side. With 2 x 24250lbf dry thrust, AMCA wouldn‘t need an afterburner. I guess the engine core can be de tuned to bring down thrust level.

Of course, the issue of US interference is a big handicap to overcome. Both for Turkiye and India.

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Yah, it is just hard to trace down what/where the original source was etc...because they all start quoting each other in syndicated fashion. So I basically wait for anyone "tougher" to follow through on something meaty...but so far I haven't really seen it with the Japanese one compared to say safran/France (to transition away from GE F414 should that become imperative downstream).

India it was somewhat self-inflicted goal in various ways....as the issue already popped up in 80s when the Viggen was a serious candidate, but the "Volvo engine" it had is a PW one at its core and 80s was still heavy cold war mistrust between US and India....and the US basically vetoed this (even though Sweden was a non-NATO country at that point that got India interested in first place, US had leverage through the engine).

This solidified the mirage 2000 pick instead.

Mind you US was supposedly offering the F-20 Tigershark (using the F404) for that program, but India wasn't interested in it.

This coincided with Reagan admin starting a GE404 relationship on the early LCA program Rajiv Gandhi admin had greenlighted at the time.

Now why India didnt basically design the LCA (later to be the tejas) to be bigger around the mirage 2000 (m53) powerplant was a monumental error in judgement given Indian nuclear tests later that stymied the whole F404 given the sanctions applied (literally overnight iirc... HAL engineers couldnt access even their own "integration" work product given fine print in their deputation to GE facility in US) for 10 years or so till relations warmed under W. Bush. But its part of why/how the Tejas is now behind in delivery.

In Indian case, French have been more reliable as strategic partner, but then thats its own subject as to why India didnt feel good putting all eggs in the French basket on strategic tech supply/transfer/RnD at the time.

During the 90s the US brought pressure against Russia in cryo rocket engine export to India too (that was before the nuclear tests too)....yet Indian establishment still didnt factor this in as they should have w.r.t the F404 dependence which is far more direct lever US had.

Remember that stuff I posted about US-Japan ToT in aero-engines and general warplanes during cold war era before? By the 90s maturation and post-plaza accords "capital account neutering" and even with Japan as demonstrably chastised close ally...... the US STILL put an amount of pressure into a Japanese warplane project at that time (the Japanese wanted to evolve the F-2 into a next generation platform, I forgot the name but I might have the file somewhere) regarding such things as the radars iirc where they detected the Japanese could potentially make an equal that the US didnt want to see happen.

Edit: I think I found it here regd what I mean: https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports/2007/MR612.1.pdf

Yasar_TR said:

There s one thing that is most disturbing about the latest meeting between Trump and RTE.
When asked about if F35 planes will be delivered to Turkey and Caatsa sanctions will be lifted, Trump said “First, Mr Erdogan needs to do something for me. Then we will see”

This means that there is a difficult decision to be made by RTE. And the lifting of Caatsa etc will depend on the outcome of that decision.

If we were to elaborate and extrapolate from similar events:

1. US has asked Japan and South Korea to invest in USA so that they will get favourable customs duty tariffs. For the two nations this is in excess of 900 billion dollars. In fact recently they have been asked to make this as an upfront cash payment. Has he asked RTE for something similar?

2. Is it something to do with rich Rare-Earth ore we have in Eskisehir?

3. Has he been asked to give large concessions in Syria?

4. Has he been asked to relinquish S400 in one way or another? Has he been asked to stop all oil and gas trade with Russia?

5. Is Baykar’s potential investment in US, part of point 1?

Something smells real dirty and fishy with all this at the aftermath of the meeting at White House.

Click to expand...

Only time will tell tbh

However, and this is just my opinion, I believe that if the condition to cancel CAATSA is either one of points no. 2,3,&5 then I would prefer Turkey to remain under CAATSA sanctions for 5 years more rather than laying down the seeds that will 100% destroy the country in the future.

Its not like Turkey will go to war with either Greece or Israel in the near future! Moreover, if there is anything that we have learned from the recent conflicts such as the Ukrainian-Russian war and the Israeli bloodbath in Iran, then current warfare isnt only dependent on fighter jets; you need to have strong EW capabilities, robust AD systems, and proper internal security

Turkey is one of the leading countries in EW capabilities, Turkey already nationalised most of the critical AD systems, including missiles reaching 150 km and radars reportedly reaching 400-500km. Turkey is also a leading player in drone warfare with stealth drones like Anka 3 and Kizilelma and Turkey has Kargu loitering munitions as well. Finally, MIT is not too shaby to allow an internal attack/public chaos as long as the SDF doesnt announce their independence in their Syria

Finally, with the firing of TEI TF-6000, it is only a matter of a couple of years till Turkey reaches the TEI TF-10000 and TF-35000. The fact that Turkey managed to fire and sustain the operation of a Turbofan engine means that Turkey have crossed the most difficult path for engine production. Thus, suffering for 2-3 more years for the greater benefit of the nation is a no brainer. Just watch what will happen when the Altay with the domestic powerpack rolls out next year; the Germans will regret the day they ever embargoed Turkey and the same will occur with the US albeit a bit later

I also want to mention that Hakan Fidan clearly said that if Turkey didnt get the engine from the US, then it will look for other suppliers and f**k the US.

In theory, wouldn't be the thrust of EJ200 engines enough for a pure A-A bread KAAN? And isn't it the most urgently needed role right now? Of course an integration of EJ200 in KAAN is a different story.

Strong AI said:

In theory, wouldn't be the thrust of EJ200 engines enough for a pure A-A bread KAAN? And isn't it the most urgently needed role right now? Of course an integration of EJ200 in KAAN is a different story.

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Unfortunately no.

EJ200 engine develops 13500lbf dry and 20200 wet thrust.
Even in war thrust settings which can not be sustained for too long, it can only manage 15500lbf dry and 23000lbf wet thrust.

For a smaller TFX, RR had offered to redevelop EJ230 engine further to give 17500lbf dry and 27000lbf wet thrust. But at the time, this was not acceptable to us as the plane was being redesigned to get bigger.

For A-A missions you will need high thrust levels. Especially if you have to avoid incoming missiles. Both dry thrust and the wet thrust will have to be commensurate with the size of the plane to achieve required agility.


EDIT

KAAN with f110 engines can not supercruise. Its maximum speed is 1.8 Mach.
A similar sized F22 with F119 engines can supercruise at 1.8 Mach and can achieve top speed of 2.25Mach.
Powerful engine is king in the air for fighter planes. That is why we really want the TF35000 engines.

Rooxbar said:

I'm just happy to see the progress on the new prototype (the new CEO seems more professional and trustworthy imo; would be also nice if we could hear something about the RCS facility and the testbed). Also we don't really know the details of the discussions and what they will entail. Trump might whip some congressmen for all we know, although it's not that likely. But time will tell. Fidan's press conference contained great insights for the average akp voter if they had ears to hear. You can't have a fully indigenous defense industry. That's a ridiculous goal to have, to isolate yourself from R&D expenditure of much bigger economies.

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It's clear that only a few large countries have a fully national defense industry. But we see what's happening around F-35 deliveries. Moreover, it's not just about this or the KAAN engine. There's been much discussion here, so I won't repeat what's already been said.
The point is that Turkey shouldn't subordinate its foreign policy to the whims of more powerful countries, even if they're its allies. We remember the embargo imposed by one of its allies 50 years ago, at the height of the military operation in Cyprus. Ten years ago, Turkey, after the downing of a Russian bomber, found itself in a vulnerable position again.
I watched a film about the Turkish national car, the "Devrim." The engine stalled, and they abandoned it. (That damn engine again.) So they shouldn't have stopped at anything...
In the end, everything worked out with TOGG.
Why should, say, Turkic countries constantly beg the Russians for weapons? Look where our Kazakh brothers have been expecting danger for the last 150 years? Exclusively from the north! From Russia. And now look at who the Kazakhs are constantly forced to buy weapons from? From Russia! This is absurd!
Unfortunately, it's not just the Kazakhs who find themselves in this absurd situation. We are all in this dire straits.
Turkey now has the opportunity to break out of this vicious cycle and give us a chance to defend ourselves from our eternal enemy.
Before the industrial age, we possessed superior weapons for centuries.
Turkey must not become disheartened and stop halfway, as happened with Devrim. Someday it will have to carry out its own "revolution." You have suffered setbacks in the past, but today you are very close to your goal, and I have reason to believe that the current generation will be able to achieve it.

There are reports that the engines needed for Kaan prototypes have arrived. Since a total of six prototypes will be produced, we could have 12 engines in stock. Furthermore, if we use the spare engines we have for the F16s, there's a possibility of adding a squadron of Kaan fighter jets to the inventory while the TF35000 engine is developed. What are your thoughts on this possibility?

begturan said:

There are reports that the engines needed for Kaan prototypes have arrived. Since a total of six prototypes will be produced, we could have 12 engines in stock. Furthermore, if we use the spare engines we have for the F16s, there's a possibility of adding a squadron of Kaan fighter jets to the inventory while the TF35000 engine is developed. What are your thoughts on this possibility?

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Good news if at least the engines for the prototypes are here.
f16 engines are for f16s. You can’t use them on any other plane.
F16 uses F110GE129B and set up for single engine use.

Kaan uses F110GE129E and set up for twin engine use. It is the same engine used in F15EX.

Yasar_TR said:

Good news if at least the engines for the prototypes are here.
f16 engines are for f16s. You can’t use them on any other plane.
F16 uses F110GE129B and set up for single engine use.

Kaan uses F110GE129E and set up for twin engine use. It is the same engine used in F15EX.

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The F110-GE-129 engine used in the F16 block50s and the engine used in Kaan are the same model, if it is possible to use it in Kaan by changing the FADEC software settings and there is no political obstacle, this path can be followed.

begturan said:

The F110-GE-129 engine used in the F16 block50s and the engine used in Kaan are the same model, if it is possible to use it in Kaan by changing the FADEC software settings and there is no political obstacle, this path can be followed.

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No they are not. The latest f16 engines we have got for our f16s are f110GE129B . It is set up for single engine use.

President of Defense Industries (SSB) Haluk Görgün announced:

All engines required for the KAAN prototype aircraft have been procured and delivered to Turkey. Production of our prototype aircraft continues at full speed.

Yasar_TR said:

No they are not. The latest f16 engines we have got for our f16s are f110GE129B . It is set up for single engine use.

Turkish Air Force Continues F-16 Operation With GE F110 Power | GE Aerospace News

EVENDALE, Ohio -- The Turkish Air Force (TuAF) has ordered F110-GE-129B engines to power its 30 new Lockheed Martin F-16E/F aircraft. Value of the order, including 42 engines and

www.geaerospace.com

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I got it so there is no way to intagrete them into Kaan.

On a whim, I'm sure with enough time and tinkering 110-129Bs can be used for twin jet configuration.

Two issues with that. 1st, is spitting in the face of US export controls, giving another very nice silver plate to US to use for embargoes; 2nd, literally cannibalizing our already low number of fighter aircraft in a 2 for 1 equation. To make 20 Kaans, we would have to cannibalize 40 F-16s. How is that a good thing by any format? Using the spares, which I believe we have less than 30(?), we would put our F-16 readiness rates to the gutter.

I've heard 10 engines. So that's only good for 4 operational planes and one set of spares if we remove and reuse engine from p0 etc. No engines until caatsa is gone and s400 is gone, which likely isn't happening because Russia doesn't allow us to get rid of it

Sanchez said:

2nd, literally cannibalizing our already low number of fighter aircraft in a 2 for 1 equation. To make 20 Kaans, we would have to cannibalize 40 F-16s. How is that a good thing by any format? Using the spares, which I believe we have less than 30(?), we would put our F-16 readiness rates to the gutter.

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And don't forget the spare engines for those Kaan's. It's a genocide of F-16's!

uçuyorum said:

. No engines until caatsa is gone and s400 is gone, which likely isn't happening because Russia doesn't allow us to get rid of it

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Are you reading what you are writing?