TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

mTT said:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1987785076386443752

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This is not Kızılelma!

Zafer said:

This is not Kızılelma!

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That IIR/TV looks very different from earlier models.
Perhaps a cheaper seeker that is good enough for mam L and other rather short range cheap weapons maybe even for cirit then we would have an equal to APKWS II

I don't want to be overly critical. Aselsan makes excellent subsystems. but the build quality of the airframe itself needs to be improved by Baykar. To the level you see with TAI's KAAN prototype.

Afif said:

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I don't want to be overly critical. Aselsan makes excellent subsystems. but the build quality of the airframe itself needs to be improved by Baykar. To the level you see with TAI's KAAN prototype.

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Eh, it's Baykar mate, I would reserve judgement until we see an actual serial production model if I were you. They've always been "move fast and break things" kind of prototype builders. Even now, these latest prototypes have improved compared to earlier ones.

Afif said:

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I don't want to be overly critical. Aselsan makes excellent subsystems. but the build quality of the airframe itself needs to be improved by Baykar. To the level you see with TAI's KAAN prototype.

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And perhaps test every six months?

When Baykar promised to start production in 2026 I was skeptical. I am really a big fan of their agile methodologies. It was just early 2023 when Kızılelma had its first flight. After that time Baykar upgraded their Ukrainian engine 2 times I guess, used first time AESA radar, Karat and Toygun. It is unbelievable for a country producing these techs first time. It is really a big joy to listening their promises since we know that they will keep it as much as possible. And one more last good thing is about Aselsan. They are unseen heroes on the stage.

So I think in the big picture of Kızılelma milestones, Baykar is about to complete first milestone which will be first version of Kızılema. I am curious what we will see in the Kızılelma B and Kızılelma C. Previously they mentioned about dual engines and supersonic capabilities but I guess Baykar will make more surprises.

Can Kizilelma really perform all the tasks of an F-16? I don't quite understand what Kizilelma is actually supposed to do. Realistically speaking, how feasible is it for a drone to perform the tasks of a manned fighter jet? No one in the world believes this. I want to believe it, but I just can't convince myself.

2033 said:

Can Kizilelma really perform all the tasks of an F-16? I don't quite understand what Kizilelma is actually supposed to do. Realistically speaking, how feasible is it for a drone to perform the tasks of a manned fighter jet? No one in the world believes this. I want to believe it, but I just can't convince myself.

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Kızılelma will have some communication latency of 2+ seconds that creates some disadvantage in dogfights. It has a smaller payload capacity than the F16. Feel free to break down what else you think is a shortcoming.

2033 said:

Can Kizilelma really perform all the tasks of an F-16? I don't quite understand what Kizilelma is actually supposed to do. Realistically speaking, how feasible is it for a drone to perform the tasks of a manned fighter jet? No one in the world believes this. I want to believe it, but I just can't convince myself.

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The point is to have an unmanned stealth platform which also can operate with manned 5th gen platforms. So you can have an edge over your adversaries in BVR or to penetrate deeper in enemy airspace.
Let's say one KE with full sensor/weapons package and twin-engines costs like half of KAAN. Would you choose 80 KAANs or 60 KAANs with 40 KE? Considering BVR you would have more AESA Radar/IRST in the air. Combine that with sensor fusion. Thus you would have an edge over your adversaries. If your adversarie would have more 5th gen platforms, then you could compensate with half of the costs for it.
So KE is not here to perform all tasks of an F-16, it fills a different gap. No countrie will replace its fleet with KE-like platforms, they will strengthen their fleet.
This is just my opinion.

2033 said:

Can Kizilelma really perform all the tasks of an F-16? I don't quite understand what Kizilelma is actually supposed to do. Realistically speaking, how feasible is it for a drone to perform the tasks of a manned fighter jet? No one in the world believes this. I want to believe it, but I just can't convince myself.

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Why not? Which tasks do you think it cannot perform?

I'm going to set aside the engine questions for now, as KE will sooner or later get an engine strong enough to fulfil all of its potential, but let's look at what we know about it.

It has a stealth geometry, it is going to be coated in RAM paint and it is going to have an AESA radar. KE is going to have 1500 kg payload capacity, and we know it is going to have an inner weapon bay. We know its weapon bay is going to be able to fit at least 3.75 metre because that is how long Gökbora is and Roketsan said it is going to fit in KE. So, 1500 kg capacity with 375 cm inner bay (presumably more) and I'm going to assume it can carry 2 missiles inside, what else can it carry then?

Obviously, two Gökbora and other a2a missiles. 2 Çakır and UAV-230 would easily fit as well (maybe even 4 of them as they are not that heavy), and SOM-J (if the weapon bay is a bit larger) and potentially new SOM-M, since it is being designed for Kaan, it is possible they are keeping KE in mind as well. It'll also be able to carry 4 Tolun inside, iirc. What else... Possibly our bunker busters that are based on MK-82 and MK-83, with their guidance kits, as well as thermobaric bombs of similar weight.

So, can it do anything F-16 do? Well, it will be able to carry bvr a2a missiles and stand off missiles, however, it won't be able to carry as much payload as an F-16 and I don't think it'll be as versatile in its payload for a mission. And as of now, it is quite slow for a jet, so using it to intercept enemy might be hard, and probably won't be as good in patrol missions. But for SEAD or DEAD missions or a2a missions? It should be fine, imo.

And, let's not forget, as @Strong AI it might not work alone in any case, but used together with other aerial assets, whether it is Kaan or other drones.

Will the KIZILELMA replace the F-16? Answer: It won't, but it will radically change its role and make it the most important player on the team.

-AESA Radar
Can track multiple targets simultaneously and prioritize threats.
Can detect at much longer ranges than the F-16's mechanically scanned radar. Can blind enemy radars with EW.
Can detect low-RCS targets (stealth aircraft, cruise missiles) much more effectively.

-KARAT transforms the KIZILELMA into a "battlefield ghost."
Jamming enemy radar.
Intercepting enemy communications: Disrupts the coordination of ground forces.
Passive listening: Detects enemy locations without activating its own radar.

-TOYGUN
Can simultaneously direct different munitions to different targets.
It can coordinate automated weapons between Unmanned-Unmanned (KIZILELMA-KIZILELMA) and Unmanned-Manned (KIZILELMA-F-16/KAAN).

Advantages against manned fighter aircraft:
-Air Superiority A-A Missiles. Maneuvering above 9G. Unmanned advantage.
-Air Defense Suppression (SEAD/DEAD): Attacks high-risk targets without pilot concerns.
-Precision Ground Attack: Same capability as SOM, LGK, and MAM-L.
-Reconnaissance & Surveillance: Cheap and optimized. Capable of maintaining long-term watch.
-Time-Sensitive Strike: Faster deployment, no need to rush back to base for fuel.
-Electronic Warfare (EW): Natural capability with KARAT and Murat100. Can attack simultaneously while conducting EW.

KIZILELMA is a system that strengthens and complements the F-16 and Kaan. Beyond the "Loyal Satellite" concept, it is now being developed to "Main Combat Aircraft" status.

The KIZILELMA is nearing technical capability to perform almost all the missions performed by the F-16 on its own. However, its true strength will be revealed when teamed with platforms like the F-16 and KAAN. The F-16 + 2x KIZILELMA will be a "team" that will provide unrivaled superiority in the air.

Thanks to Özgür's modernization, our F-16s will likely attain this 6th generation capability, which the Kaan also possesses.

Will the stealth capability really be sufficient?

The speed is slow.

There is a 2-second data delay.

Will the engine be able to generate enough energy for the electronic set and radar?

How much control will the pilot have over the aircraft due to the data delay? Will the AI be given firing authority?

2033 said:

Will the stealth capability really be sufficient?

The speed is slow.

There is a 2-second data delay.

Will the engine be able to generate enough energy for the electronic set and radar?

How much control will the pilot have over the aircraft due to the data delay? Will the AI be given firing authority?

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Kızılelma will be re-engined in a couple of years and will probably be already supersonic with one TF10000 engine, (needs to be seen yet). A twin engine version can be more capable naturally. Coms latency is only relevant in close combat, can possibly be improved in the future.

Zafer said:

Kızılelma will be re-engined in a couple of years and will probably be already supersonic with one TF10000 engine, (needs to be seen yet). A twin engine version can be more capable naturally. Coms latency in only relevant in close combat, can possibly be improved in the future.

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In close combat, AI will take over and there will be no delay.