TR Defence Exports & Updates

Khagan1923 said:

We need shipyard capacity for ourselves, why would we "rent" it out to another country so said shipyard builds their ships which aren't even Turkish products.

Big fat no from me. Especially not for Belgium which has upheld embargos on the Turkish defense industry for decades for the pkk.

They can purchase I-Class or TF2000 if they wish to benefit from Turkish shipyards.

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Because we need the revenue (€/$), to produce and purchase our ships.

Saithan said:

I understand why he's saying it. And normally a country would have enough Shipyards working to cycle through navy's needs without having to be rented out. Aside from that some Shipyards would be for commercial purposes.

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That's not really a thing. Noone save for China have enough state owned shipyards for its own needs and a big navy.

Khagan1923 said:

Currently all shipyards are full with orders. @Anmdt touched on this multiple times, we sure as hell don't need to built ships from Damen for the Belgium for our shipyards to survive.

Like I said they want to benefit from our industry they can order Turkish ships with their own subsystems anything else they can fuck off.

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We know from the Istif to Indonesia spat that shipyards are unhappy with financing and want more.

Naval Shipyards are not commercial Shipyards, so wanting more money is redundant behavior. Considering the size of Türkiye and our navy, we don't need this greedy behavior. Which is why I'd say that building Naval ship fast should be possible, but not absolutely necessary and speeding up is not a good thing because we want to be able to keep these Shipyards working year around forever without running out of work to do.

When you think like that. Creating more Shipyards capable of producing Milgem and such is nice, but only if they can produce for other nations needs.

But you can't permit these Shipyards to misuse design plans and such of TN vessels.

My take is that there are too many Shipyards and there aren't enough work to go around the next 15 years.

Because the production line is filled up, but only for a few years after that who are they going to build ships for ?

Well there is still TCG who has rotted away...

Saithan said:

Naval Shipyards are not commercial Shipyards

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Only naval "shipyards" we have are the Istanbul Naval shipyard in Pendik and Gölcük for submarines. Rest are all commercial. It's a tight rope.

For the Indonesian deal, looks like they found the correct compromise.
F-519 and F-521, first and last ships of the second Istif batch will be delivered to Indonesia starting from 2027.

Sanchez said:

Only naval "shipyards" we have are the Istanbul Naval shipyard in Pendik and Gölcük for submarines. Rest are all commercial. It's a tight rope.

For the Indonesian deal, looks like they found the correct compromise.
F-519 and F-521, first and last ships of the second Istif batch will be delivered to Indonesia starting from 2027.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2058774067079942538

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So,why this change of mind?

TR_123456 said:

So,why this change of mind?

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Türkiye is becoming more assertive in our claims of sea regions and need to backup with more navy.

Zafer said:

Türkiye is becoming more assertive in our claims of sea regions and need to backup with more navy.

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You didnt get it.
We talked about this where we made our position clear.
First Turkish navy,then the rest.
I guess the listened.

TR_123456 said:

You didnt get it.
We talked about this where we made our position clear.
First Turkish navy,then the rest.
I guess the listened.

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I don't think so. What do you know about who needs what.

Zafer said:

I don't think so. What do you know about who needs what.

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You know, trying to spin every decision as if it is the right one is getting old.
If one wants people to respect one one cant be blindly accepting following agreeing(with) everything our leaders do regarding our Armed Forces.
We need to be able to criticize everything that is wrong.
Selling those Istif class frigates was wrong and they knew it so they came up with a solution.

You claimed it was the right decision then and now you come up with this statement:''Türkiye is becoming more assertive in our claims of sea regions and need to backup with more navy.''


So,what is it now?
If they sell them its for money for our shipyards but if it we keep them its good for our power projection.
Do you see a contradiction in these statements?

TR_123456 said:

So,why this change of mind?

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It's all speculation of course. We can guess that Indonesia and shipyards wanted soon to be ready ships to be delivered. Qataris are financing it so Indonesia would get 2 ships in 2 years and shipyards would get a nice billion in the same time frame along with more orders from navy.

Knockback from the navy and some public discourse may or may not have changed some minds, which is good. I don't put much thought into thinking that twitter chatter helped a lot, but if it did, good. We have culminated some very nice relations with Indonesia in the last 3-4 years. Almost all ships in their navy will be carrying some Turkish subsystem in the future. It's good to keep that relationship solid. Regardless, F-519 and 521 can be delivered in 2 years, again a shorter timeframe than any other builder can offer at this time.

Khagan1923 said:

We need shipyard capacity for ourselves, why would we "rent" it out to another country so said shipyard builds their ships which aren't even Turkish products.

Big fat no from me. Especially not for Belgium which has upheld embargos on the Turkish defense industry for decades for the pkk.

They can purchase I-Class or TF2000 if they wish to benefit from Turkish shipyards.

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Belgian Defense Minister Theo Francken's recent visit to the Sedef Shipyard in Istanbul and his statement that "Turkiye is rising as a quiet force in military maritime" is not simply a diplomatic courtesy visit. Behind it lies a massive logistical and financial crisis shaking the European defense industry. Belgium and the Netherlands were jointly commissioning the construction of next-generation Anti-Submarine Warfare frigates through a partnership between Damen and Thales. The plan was simple: the first ship was to arrive in Belgium in 2027. However, due to design, integration, and labor crises in the Netherlands, the timeline was delayed by a full seven years. The delivery date was postponed to 2034. The initial cost, estimated at €600 million per ship, has now exceeded €1 billion: the integration costs of the new generation radar and combat management systems were unforeseen, labor costs increased excessively, and there is significant inflation.

The Belgian Navy's current frigates (Leopold I and Louise-Marie) are old and scheduled to be decommissioned before 2034. Belgium faces the risk of being left without frigates (a capacity gap). Turkish shipyards not only offers the advantage of launching three ships in 36 months, but also allows for significant budget savings. Türkiye partnering with Belgium eliminates the risk of being without frigates over rapid production, and could provide budget savings of up to half a billion euros.

On the other hand, given our advanced design and outfitting capabilities, I am not keen on Turkish shipyards being used only as subcontractors for hull construction on a combat ship designed and owned by other countries. If the Turkish shipbuilding industry were to utilize its capacity to the maximum extent for military production, we have the potential to produce a capacity equivalent to the entire European continent. However, The world is arming itself at an incredible pace, and as existing navies are modernizing rapidly, every capacity, every dock in military shipbuilding capability is extremely valuable. If we are to provide Belgium with such a valuable option, we must receive an equally valuable return, and this certainly cannot be limited to cash flow.

(On an off-topic note, we might also need a new generation ASW 'heavy frigate' from the mid-2030s onwards, and I think we could meet that need with a derivative class based on the TEPE class destroyers. So, I don't see 6-8K tons displacement heavy frigates as a very distant future for our Turkish navy either.)

Sanchez said:

It's all speculation of course. We can guess that Indonesia and shipyards wanted soon to be ready ships to be delivered. Qataris are financing it so Indonesia would get 2 ships in 2 years and shipyards would get a nice billion in the same time frame along with more orders from navy.

Knockback from the navy and some public discourse may or may not have changed some minds, which is good. I don't put much thought into thinking that twitter chatter helped a lot, but if it did, good. We have culminated some very nice relations with Indonesia in the last 3-4 years. Almost all ships in their navy will be carrying some Turkish subsystem in the future. It's good to keep that relationship solid. Regardless, F-519 and 521 can be delivered in 2 years, again a shorter timeframe than any other builder can offer at this time.

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It is not about Indonesia.
First they needed money for the shipyards but all of a sudden there is no talk of needing any money and the designation of those ships changed to the navy.
What happened,did they win a lottery or something?
It just shows that some people wanted to make money fast but some higher ups decided it would be wrong,probably some damn politics again.

TR_123456 said:

It is not about Indonesia.
First they needed money for the shipyards but all of a sudden there is no talk of needing any money and the designation of those ships changed to the navy.
What happened,did they win a lottery or something?
It just shows that some people wanted to make money fast but some higher ups decided it would be wrong,probably some damn politics again.

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They still need money for the shipyards, as seen by Sedef courting Belgians to build Damen designed Belgian ships in Turkey. This barely ever happens.

I'd think they evaluated shipyards screaming for money and navy's need for frigates asap and decided on a course of action that works for everyone.

dBSPL said:

Belgian Defense Minister Theo Francken's recent visit to the Sedef Shipyard in Istanbul and his statement that "Turkiye is rising as a quiet force in military maritime" is not simply a diplomatic courtesy visit. Behind it lies a massive logistical and financial crisis shaking the European defense industry. Belgium and the Netherlands were jointly commissioning the construction of next-generation Anti-Submarine Warfare frigates through a partnership between Damen and Thales. The plan was simple: the first ship was to arrive in Belgium in 2027. However, due to design, integration, and labor crises in the Netherlands, the timeline was delayed by a full seven years. The delivery date was postponed to 2034. The initial cost, estimated at €600 million per ship, has now exceeded €1 billion: the integration costs of the new generation radar and combat management systems were unforeseen, labor costs increased excessively, and there is significant inflation.

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No,those ships were to be made in Romania by Damen Romania.
The costs were low already.
Something must be wrong at the Damen shipyards in Romania.

dBSPL said:

The Belgian Navy's current frigates (Leopold I and Louise-Marie) are old and scheduled to be decommissioned before 2034. Belgium faces the risk of being left without frigates (a capacity gap). Turkish shipyards not only offers the advantage of launching three ships in 36 months, but also allows for significant budget savings. Türkiye partnering with Belgium eliminates the risk of being without frigates over rapid production, and could provide budget savings of up to half a billion euros.

On the other hand, given our advanced design and outfitting capabilities, I am not keen on Turkish shipyards being used only as subcontractors for hull construction on a combat ship designed and owned by other countries. If the Turkish shipbuilding industry were to utilize its capacity to the maximum extent for military production, we have the potential to produce a capacity equivalent to the entire European continent. However, The world is arming itself at an incredible pace, and as existing navies are modernized, every capacity and every pool in military shipbuilding capability is extremely valuable. If we are to provide Belgium with such a valuable option, we must receive an equally valuable return, and this certainly cannot be limited to cash flow.

(On an off-topic note, we might also need a new generation ASW 'heavy frigate' from the mid-2030s onwards, and I think we could meet that need with a derivative class based on the TEPE class destroyers. So, I don't see 6-8K tons displacement heavy frigates as a very distant future for our Turkish navy either.)

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How does this answer the below question?


''We need shipyard capacity for ourselves, why would we "rent" it out to another country so said shipyard builds their ships which aren't even Turkish products.''

Sanchez said:

They still need money for the shipyards, as seen by Sedef courting Belgians to build Damen designed Belgian ships in Turkey. This barely ever happens.

I'd think they evaluated shipyards screaming for money and navy's need for frigates asap and decided on a course of action that works for everyone.

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Who says Sedef is courting them and not the other way around?

TR_123456 said:

No,those ships were to be made in Romania by Damen Romania.
The costs were low already.
Something must be wrong at the Damen shipyards in Romania.




How does this answer the below question?


''We need shipyard capacity for ourselves, why would we "rent" it out to another country so said shipyard builds their ships which aren't even Turkish products.''

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The Romania branch of Damen only builds 'Empty Hull'. Yes, Damen Galati in Romania is contracted to build the raw steel hulls of the ASW frigates. And Romania's labor costs are indeed lower comparing to Netherlands. However, an empty steel hull is only about 20-25% of a modern frigate's total cost (labor + materials).

The real bottleneck is in Netherlands. Once the hulls are finished in Romania, they are towed to Damen Naval’s main shipyard in Vlissingen, Netherlands. This is where the real complex work happens: outfitting, installing the AWWS by Thales, and integrating the battle management software and dozens of other systems. So the 7-year delay is not because Romanian workers can't weld steel fast enough. The delay is happening because Damen Naval and its European software subcontractors are facing massive integration crises. And they cannot finalize the blueprint designs because the combat management software and next-gen radar integration are taking years longer than expected.

Because of these software and engineering delays in the Netherlands, engineering hour costs have skyrocketed due to inflation. Damen’s similar F126 frigate program for Germany is facing the exact same structural, software-driven delays(at least four years) right now. Furthermore, the total cost of the project is expected to increase by over 50%.

I am definitely not claiming that these ships will be equipped with Turkish weapons or Turkish radars. Belgium will of course keep its own choice of Western systems (Thales, Raytheon, etc.).

My point about shipyard and engineering capability and fully integrated service. The current 7-year crisis in the Netherlands is not because the Thales radar is not work; it is because the Dutch shipyard infrastructure faces a massive shortage of engineering hours and labor to physically install, wire, and integrate those complex systems into the hull on schedule. When the Belgian Minister looks at Türkiye, he sees shipyards that have proven they can take any system the customer requests (whether it's Western, local, or mixed, as seen in recent Ukrainian and Pakistani corvette/frigate programs), install them onto the ship, test them, and deliver a combat-ready platform within 36 months. So, to be very clear: The hull can be welded anywhere, the systems will remain Western, but the integrating shipyard might need to change if Europe wants these ships before 2034. I believe that, that is why Türkiye is on the table.

TR_123456 said:

You know, trying to spin every decision as if it is the right one is getting old.
If one wants people to respect one one cant be blindly accepting following agreeing(with) everything our leaders do regarding our Armed Forces.
We need to be able to criticize everything that is wrong.
Selling those Istif class frigates was wrong and they knew it so they came up with a solution.

You claimed it was the right decision then and now you come up with this statement:''Türkiye is becoming more assertive in our claims of sea regions and need to backup with more navy.''


So,what is it now?
If they sell them its for money for our shipyards but if it we keep them its good for our power projection.
Do you see a contradiction in these statements?

Click to expand...

I am supporting decisions of the leadership and I am asking for more.

There is a slippery ground in the geopolitical power games and we have to juggle our assets wisely. Our capabilities and responsibilities are changing quickly. As the MoD disclosed last week there are 4-5 other countries that are asking from us to get the same treatment as Somalia is getting. So we need to allocate our resources to a wider geography stretching thin little by little. These are unforeseen quick developments you can't closely keep up with. So we need to re-arrange our priorities. Add to that that we need to determine our next steps in our coastal seas for particularly hydrocarbon explorations and other interests and respond to developing circumstances affected by all the players playing in this circus. There will be more shuffling of assets in our disposal as developments unfold.

You need to consider that we have a bigger footprint now than just a few years ago and we will probably have an even bigger footprint in the coming years. We are an industrialized country and we have ample room for growth still. We can respond to demands from friendly nations and expand our industrial base. We can do this. Consider the Korea's offer to the US to make 20 frigates per year for them alone; yet where are we, like 4-5 a year. This capability has to grow.

However we don't need the larger navy to respond to the next door neighbor Greece, our artillery can take care of that. So Greece buying this and that is not a big concern for us, in my thinking. But at times my thinking does not prevail when you need to address the perception rather than the reality, so you want to look big to deter the old school way.

Zafer said:

I am supporting decisions of the leadership and I am asking for more.

There is a slippery ground in the geopolitical power games and we have to juggle our assets wisely. Our capabilities and responsibilities are changing quickly. As the MoD disclosed last week there are 4-5 other countries that are asking from us to get the same treatment as Somalia is getting. So we need to allocate our resources to a wider geography stretching thin little by little. These are unforeseen quick developments you can't closely keep up with. So we need to re-arrange our priorities. Add to that that we need to determine our next steps in our coastal seas for particularly hydrocarbon explorations and other interests and respond to developing circumstances affected by all the players playing in this circus. There will be more shuffling of assets in our disposal as developments unfold.

You need to consider that we have a bigger footprint now than just a few years ago and we will probably have an even bigger footprint in the coming years. We are an industrialized country and we have ample room for growth still. We can respond to demands from friendly nations and expand our industrial base. We can do this. Consider the Korea's offer to the US to make 20 frigates per year for them alone; yet where are we, like 4-5 a year. This capability has to grow.

However we don't need the larger navy to respond to the next door neighbor Greece, our artillery can take care of that. So Greece buying this and that is not a big concern for us, in my thinking. But at times my thinking does not prevail when you need to address the perception rather than the reality, so you want to look big to deter the old school way.

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Lets say i acknowledge your answer.

Until TN receives her Frigates I am not counting my eggs yet.

Khagan1923 said:

Currently all shipyards are full with orders. @Anmdt touched on this multiple times, we sure as hell don't need to built ships from Damen for the Belgium for our shipyards to survive.

Like I said they want to benefit from our industry they can order Turkish ships with their own subsystems anything else they can fuck off.

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I concur with you when it is about SEDEF shipyard that is already busy with building ships for our navy.

But!

We have about 70 shipyards, there are many shipyards available to take the job. Why say no against business. Let them come and bring in their money and orders, shipyards like: Dearsan, RMK marine etc. etc. Never chase away a customer (let Norway do that!)