TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

TheInsider · Jul 5, 2026

Bogeyman said:
I can't wait to hear the news that it's been added to the inventory.

That might shake some things in our immediate neighbourhood.

MonteCarlo · Jul 5, 2026

IMHO hitting a drifting 7/12 meters long boat is enough to call it a moving target. To hit a 7 meter target which is speeding you would need a precision in the class of MAM-L. And even then you are almost always firing 2 mam-Ls to hit a USV just to make sure, like it was done at last 2 Naval exercises. Waiting something like that from a ballistic missile with 700+ km range would be absurd

Edit: as another note you probably wouldn't be able to hit the same target with harpoon block 2 from 100+ km range which is crazy to think about lol

Yasar_TR · Jul 5, 2026

MonteCarlo said:
IMHO hitting a drifting 7/12 meters long boat is enough to call it a moving target. To hit a 7 meter target which is speeding you would need a precision in the class of MAM-L. And even then you are almost always firing 2 mam-Ls to hit a USV just to make sure, like it was done at last 2 Naval exercises. Waiting something like that from a ballistic missile with 700+ km range would be absurd

I am afraid I can’t agree with you .
If a missile is deemed to be AShM class it has to be able to hit a vessel moving at up to 25 to 30 knots. (Most modern carriers need to have almost this speed to help with take off as well as recovery of aircraft).

- There are certain tests that need close scrutiny and have to be done without explosives and real targets in order to obtain correct data..
- To test an AShM with explosives to hit a towed ship is dangerous and expensive business.
- This is why quite often more than one specific test is carried out for a missile before it is accepted.
- As far as I know there were no videos of moving ship targeting for Atmaca missile. There is no way our Navy would have accepted to install them on our ships if they did not carry out a truly moving target firing. But due to certain details these tests are not for our eyes.
- Same will happen with Tayfun. To hit a static target with explosives was more effective to show to the public. But real moving target test was most likely already carried out.

MonteCarlo · Jul 5, 2026

M

Yasar_TR said:
I am afraid I can’t agree with you .
If a missile is deemed to be AShM class it has to be able to hit a vessel moving at up to 25 to 30 knots. (Most modern carriers need to have almost this speed to help with take off as well as recovery of aircraft).

- There are certain tests that need close scrutiny and have to be done without explosives and real targets in order to obtain correct data..
- To test an AShM with explosives to hit a towed ship is dangerous and expensive business.
- This is why quite often more than one specific test is carried out for a missile before it is accepted.
- As far as I know there were no videos of moving ship targeting for Atmaca missile. There is no way our Navy would have accepted to install them on our ships if they did not carry out a truly moving target firing. But due to certain details these tests are not for our eyes.
- Same will happen with Tayfun. To hit a static target with explosives was more effective to show to the public. But real moving target test was most likely already carried out.

My argument wasn't that this test is enough to admit it to the inventory but rather that there is nothing "misleading" about calling this test a moving target test. Of course you would also need to test it against a manuevering real size warship. The thing I was emphasizing is that this test is definitely not same as the tests we saw for for Tayfun block 2 with anchored CEP circle and there is nothing wrong with calling it a moving target test

Angry Turk !!! · Jul 5, 2026

Ripley said:
Meanwhile, let’s not forget that Turkey is a signatory state to Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) and International Code of Conduct against Ballistic Missile Proliferation AKA Hague Code of Conduct (HCOC).
Turkey has voluntarily signed these treaties and is bound by their regulatory limitations.

I'll wipe my ass with that. When push comes to shove, only winning the war matters, rest is irrelevant.

Ripley · Jul 5, 2026

Angry Turk !!! said:
I'll wipe my ass with that. When push comes to shove, only winning the war matters, rest is irrelevant.

Right. Or cover your walls with the treaty as wallpaper for all I care. Some members were worried that we’d be selling them left and right so it was a reminder that it also gives Turkey a legal shield.
These are voluntary treaties and as such gives your development programs legitimacy.

Of course, Turkey, if needed, can send such weapons to friendly nations ‘under the counter’ and yeah, if it’s serving Turkey’s interests, go for it.

dBSPL · Jul 5, 2026

Looking at the Tayfun Block 3 discussion, an interesting picture emerges. Barbaros coastal defense system's high-mobility horizontal saturation capacity with Atmaca and Çakır already covers the subsonic, low-altitude layer. Now Tayfun Block 3, however debated it may be, adds a ballistic/hypersonic ASBM layer at the other end of the spectrum. So we have two ends, one crawling under the radar horizon at subsonic speed, the other coming down from above at hypersonic terminal velocity as a ballistic weapon.

I think the interesting question is this: there's nothing in the middle of these two ends. Although network-centric warfare and swarm engagement approaches capable of carrying specific payloads pose significant challenges to countermeasures; Atmaca/Çakır leaves the enemy a certain reaction window, because subsonic speed and a fixed altitude profile are relatively predictable. Tayfun on the other hand is a completely different engagement logic, strategic-scale threat. Between the two, there's a missing horizontal supersonic layer that would compress both detection and reaction time simultaneously.

This is where TÜBİTAK SAGE's liquid-fueled ramjet architecture developed for Gökhan/ER comes to mind. Let me be clear here, Gökhan today is a known motor technology project in the air-to-air class, not the anti-ship program I'm describing, I'm only talking about where this motor infrastructure could theoretically be taken. The advantage of a liquid-fueled ramjet over solid-fuel is being able to adjust fuel flow throughout the flight (throttling), which theoretically makes two different profiles possible with a single motor. At low altitude with full sea-skimming, a range around 150 km, terminal speed realistically stays in the Mach 2-3 band because the heating limit at sea level makes anything higher impractical. At altitude in a Hi-Lo profile, reaching the 400-500 km band and hitting Mach 3-4+ in the terminal dive is a more sensible design space.

For the airframe, roughly 1.1-1.3 tons launch weight and 50-54 cm diameter could be considered, again these aren't a specification, just a reasonable design range for this class of munition. This range also theoretically makes MIDLAS integration possible. A warhead around 150 kg, fragmentation/armor-piercing, would be enough for a mission kill effect at this scale.

On the swarm attack side, the leader-follower logic we've seen in P-800 Oniks, (and also in our current AShMs like Çakır's) promotional material could carry over here too, with a leader missile at altitude turning on its radar and collecting target data while followers stay silent and sea-skimming to bypass EW systems. It's basically taking two concepts that already exist separately in Atmaca/Çakır and Tayfun and moving them into a third, middle layer.

If it materializes, the integration side also makes sense, it could go into mobile Barbaros batteries as an additional option, and on Istif class frigates a hybrid loadout of 2 Atmaca + 2 supersonic missiles amidships could give a single platform three different speed/altitude profiles at once. But to stress again, this is entirely a conceptual proposal, there's no such goal in Gökhan's official scope, I just see it as a sensible technical bridge to fill the existing gap.

Pokemonte13 · Jul 5, 2026

dBSPL said:
Looking at the Tayfun Block 3 discussion, an interesting picture emerges. Barbaros coastal defense system's high-mobility horizontal saturation capacity with Atmaca and Çakır already covers the subsonic, low-altitude layer. Now Tayfun Block 3, however debated it may be, adds a ballistic/hypersonic ASBM layer at the other end of the spectrum. So we have two ends, one crawling under the radar horizon at subsonic speed, the other coming down from above at hypersonic terminal velocity as a ballistic weapon.

I think the interesting question is this: there's nothing in the middle of these two ends. Although network-centric warfare and swarm engagement approaches capable of carrying specific payloads pose significant challenges to countermeasures; Atmaca/Çakır leaves the enemy a certain reaction window, because subsonic speed and a fixed altitude profile are relatively predictable. Tayfun on the other hand is a completely different engagement logic, strategic-scale threat. Between the two, there's a missing horizontal supersonic layer that would compress both detection and reaction time simultaneously.

This is where TÜBİTAK SAGE's liquid-fueled ramjet architecture developed for Gökhan/ER comes to mind. Let me be clear here, Gökhan today is a known motor technology project in the air-to-air class, not the anti-ship program I'm describing, I'm only talking about where this motor infrastructure could theoretically be taken. The advantage of a liquid-fueled ramjet over solid-fuel is being able to adjust fuel flow throughout the flight (throttling), which theoretically makes two different profiles possible with a single motor. At low altitude with full sea-skimming, a range around 150 km, terminal speed realistically stays in the Mach 2-3 band because the heating limit at sea level makes anything higher impractical. At altitude in a Hi-Lo profile, reaching the 400-500 km band and hitting Mach 3-4+ in the terminal dive is a more sensible design space.

For the airframe, roughly 1.1-1.3 tons launch weight and 50-54 cm diameter could be considered, again these aren't a specification, just a reasonable design range for this class of munition. This range also theoretically makes MIDLAS integration possible. A warhead around 150 kg, fragmentation/armor-piercing, would be enough for a mission kill effect at this scale.

On the swarm attack side, the leader-follower logic we've seen in P-800 Oniks, (and also in our current AShMs like Çakır's) promotional material could carry over here too, with a leader missile at altitude turning on its radar and collecting target data while followers stay silent and sea-skimming to bypass EW systems. It's basically taking two concepts that already exist separately in Atmaca/Çakır and Tayfun and moving them into a third, middle layer.

If it materializes, the integration side also makes sense, it could go into mobile Barbaros batteries as an additional option, and on Istif class frigates a hybrid loadout of 2 Atmaca + 2 supersonic missiles amidships could give a single platform three different speed/altitude profiles at once. But to stress again, this is entirely a conceptual proposal, there's no such goal in Gökhan's official scope, I just see it as a sensible technical bridge to fill the existing gap.

Supersonic ashm is already under contract since 2025 Idef. Roketsan and aselsan signed it though when we will se it is another matter.

Yasar_TR · Jul 5, 2026

dBSPL said:
Now Tayfun Block 3, however debated it may be, adds a ballistic/hypersonic ASBM layer at the other end of the spectrum. So we have two ends, one crawling under the radar horizon at subsonic speed, the other coming down from above at hypersonic terminal velocity as a ballistic weapon.

No one can question the hypersonic speed with which this missile travels during it‘s midcourse. Infact all of the Tayfun blocks travel at hypersonic speeds during mid course..

For block 3 we haven’t come across anybody calling it a hypersonic weapon. (A hypersonic weapon, as well as travelling at hypersonic speeds, can perform manoeuvres to evade AD systems. It will also hit target at hypersonic velocity).

Yet, it is mentioned that in terminal phase it travels at hypersonic speeds. Terminal phase is when missile starts its downward dive to earth. And it could be up to 60 to 90 km.
Until the missile reaches around 20 to 15km altitude, it can reach hypersonic speeds due to rarified air and low drag. This is valid for most ballistic missiles of this type. But after 20km altitude it would start losing speed due to higher drag and as governed by the terminal velocity formula.
Biggest parameter that affects higher speed is missile mass. Normally 65% to 70% of the missile’s mass is fuel. Since before terminal phase it would have depleted all this fuel, it‘s mass will not play as much a decisive factor on speed as expected.
The only way to achieve hypersonic or close to hypersonic impact is to fire up the rocket engine again just before the 20km altitude for around 9 seconds.
Block 4 is supposed to impact target at hypersonic speeds, as clearly mentioned by Mr İkinci. It is also mentioned as a hypersonic weapon.
Block 3 details have not been revealed yet. So it is too early to speculate on it’s technical specifications.

Anmdt · Jul 6, 2026

fushkee said:
But we don’t see any movement of the ship. No trail footage..

It wasn't anchored, free to move - along with the stream and the wind. It wasn't a moving or self propelled, as in maneuvering.
It has an active, also (possibly) mechanically steered AESA seeker to initiate a track prior to the terminal phase. The motion of the target matters the least after initiating the track.

Anmdt · Jul 6, 2026

Yasar_TR said:
Bro, fantastic news that they are working on an anti ship ballistic missile. But don’t get too enthusiastic yet.
1. The target was not moving.
2. Have they confirmed the terminal speed to be hypersonic?
3. Did the missile contain explosives?

1. it is a different cattle of fish to hit a moving target. That will come in time. This probably was GOLIS impact.
2. & 3. If the terminal speed was hypersonic, The impact video is awesome. It does look like a very high speed impact.
If the terminal speed was hypersonic, how did they achieve it?

Our dreams are starting to become reality!

The target wasn't anchored, hence they only fed the initial position / velocity data to the missile (possibly with the update before the terminal phase for tracking). There was an uncertainty of the vessel position when missile initiated a scan / track. That is being the whole point of the test, it doesn't need an actually maneuvering target to simulate this.

The missile had explosives, it is HE fragmented warhead to disable mainly sensors, and any personnel present on the deck. A disabled ship in distress worth more than a sunk one.

The speed is typically hypersonic during the terminal phase of ballistic missiles of these kind. And i believe, at the very last part of the terminal phase the sensor is knocked out from the heat stress, little that does matter since it lasts a few seconds, and a boat would move 30-40 meters during the given span and sway less than it.

Pokemonte13 · Jul 6, 2026

Anmdt said:
The missile had explosives, it is HE fragmented warhead to disable mainly sensors, and any personnel present on the deck. A disabled ship in distress worth more than a sunk one.

Predator tactics. Wound him and make him call out for help

Yasar_TR · Jul 6, 2026

Anmdt said:
The target wasn't anchored,

If the target wasn’t anchored, it would be free to move if there were surface currents. According to naval info, normal rim currents in Black Sea varies from 0.2m/sec to 0.5m/sec.
We don’t know the range of flight of this test. But if it were ~560km as per first Tayfun test, the flight time would be 6-7 minutes. That means the boat will have moved around 150 metres away from it’s original position when the missile was launched if we take a mean value of 0.35m/sec.
So, if course correction data during flight was conveyed to the missile, it could have calculated where exactly the boat would be at impact. This is similar to giving details of a ship travelling at 30 knots in a given direction. In 6 minutes time the missile can know where it would be. (As long as the ship doesn’t know it is being targeted and performs random evasive course changes)

Anmdt said:
The speed is typically hypersonic during the terminal phase of ballistic missiles of these kind.

As explained in my above post, the “terminal phase” is a broad term. When the missile starts to dive down to earth, it is at the start of its terminal phase. This phase can be any thing from 60km to 90km (assuming this is a quasi-ballistic missile with suppressed trajectory). To have impact velocity in the order of 5 Mach this sort of missile needs re-ignition before 20km altitude. Otherwise the impact velocity will be at low supersonic speeds as governed by the terminal velocity laws.

UkroTurk · Jul 6, 2026

Yasar_TR said:
If the target wasn’t anchored, it would be free to move if there were surface currents. According to naval info, normal rim currents in Black Sea varies from 0.2m/sec to 0.5m/sec.
We don’t know the range of flight of this test. But if it were ~560km as per first Tayfun test, the flight time would be 6-7 minutes. That means the boat will have moved around 150 metres away from it’s original position when the missile was launched if we take a mean value of 0.35m/sec.
So, if course correction data during flight was conveyed to the missile, it could have calculated where exactly the boat would be at impact. This is similar to giving details of a ship travelling at 30 knots in a given direction. In 6 minutes time the missile can know where it would be. (As long as the ship doesn’t know it is being targeted and performs random evasive course changes)

As explained in my above post, the “terminal phase” is a broad term. When the missile starts to dive down to earth, it is at the start of its terminal phase. This phase can be any thing from 60km to 90km (assuming this is a quasi-ballistic missile with suppressed trajectory). To have impact velocity in the order of 5 Mach this sort of missile needs re-ignition before 20km altitude. Otherwise the impact velocity will be at low supersonic speeds as governed by the terminal velocity laws.

So do you mean: there was no homing guidance, no seekers , the missile hit via command guidance? Did I miss understand you?

Yasar_TR · Jul 6, 2026

UkroTurk said:
So do you mean: there was no homing guidance, no seekers , the missile hit via command guidance? Did I miss understand you?

You misunderstood I think.
I was elaborating and guessing over @Anmdt ’s post regarding the guidance.
My line of thought was that if the boat was free and was drifting with current, it would be doing that within a specific drift pattern and either the missile’s guidance or another source feeding it with time based coordinates may have shown the missile where the boat was going to be at the time of impact.
I honestly don’t know what type of guidance was used in this test. But whatever it was it helped guide the missile for a bulls eye impact.
The gist of our posts was to do with the fact that this test was no different than targeting a boat that was moving at 20-30 knots.

Saithan · Jul 6, 2026

I prefer believing that the seeker found the vessel within it's range mid course or terminal phase and adjusted accordingly and hit the boat. That alone would make Tayfun a very useful missile.

Yasar_TR · Jul 6, 2026

Saithan said:
I prefer believing that the seeker found the vessel within it's range mid course or terminal phase and adjusted accordingly and hit the boat. That alone would make Tayfun a very useful missile.

In a real world firing, a standard anti-ship ballistic missile uses a multi-stage guidance process:
During mid-course it would be guided by inertial navigation by satellite updates to reach the general area of the target.Then the on board radar or IR seekers or both take over for terminal guidance. In certain cases the terminal guidance is done in conjunction with IIR (electro optical) systems. But due to hypersonic speeds causing extreme heat, this is a problematic system. Optical systems can be shielded and are made available during the very last instances to overcome heat problems to make use of their high accuracy..

We do not know what type of guidance Tayfun Block 3 uses. But if it can have midcourse data link to make course corrections or given target info by third party long range Aesa radars, then it’s accuracy would be greatly enhanced.

But for this test if we do a quick calculation (Bakkal hesabı) :

A 12 meter long boat, moving/drifting at may be 1 or 2 knot speed was hit with bulls eye accuracy.

A 120 meter frigate sailing at 10 to 20 knots can and should also be hit with at least the same accuracy.

In fact the frigate should be easier to hit as it’s RCS would be bigger, it’s overall area much bigger than the 12m boat and it’s IR signature would be much higher.

boredaf · Jul 7, 2026

MonteCarlo said:
1.6 billion dollars Kara Atmaca order being signed in the NATO summit. Did it already have a procurement deal or is this the first?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2074414152538333240

That is not what it says there. Whole initiative is valued at 1.6 billion, not our Kara Atmaca order, which is just our part of it.

MonteCarlo · Jul 7, 2026

boredaf said:
That is not what it says there. Whole initiative is valued at 1.6 billion, not our Kara Atmaca order, which is just our part of it.

Yeah, thanks for the correction I didn't notice the last part

Pokemonte13 · Jul 7, 2026

These info presentation dont even make sense as Diehl defence doesn't have any strike products to offer and the greeks as well as the french would commit suicide before buying something from us.

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