TR Casual Discussion Çay Bahçesi

Rooxbar

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
784
Reactions
59 2,390
Nation of residence
Nethelands
Nation of origin
Turkey
yes, the symbol was used by Turks in the past and by other groups but the Ottoman adoption of it is due to two factors one a legend about Osman the First's dream, and because it was the symbol of Rome and the Ottomans thought of themselves as the continuation of Rome. the Ottomans were forcing Caesar not Constantinople to stop calling themselves Roman for a while before they conquered Istanbul.



Culture is something that is tied down to one group it is something that evolves over time from different cultures coming together and exchanging ideas, for example, Greek culture gets most of its roots from the middle east.



The Crescent-star wasn't an Islamic symbol but there was a legend has it that Osman I put a crescent on the top of a mosque after he had a dream that he believed to be a vision. The Crescent-star is associated with the Islamic world mostly because it was used by the Ottomans.
I'm sorry to tell you this, but that's Wikipedia level bullshit. You can't really trust anything that can have ideological underpinnings on the internet. Anyone can make the reality seem upside down by picking and choosing the data that they present. Byzantine use of the symbol has no relevance if it's not a ubiquitous use. This is a universal symbol that is expected to be seen in different settings and it indeed was used as a symbol of the city of Byzantium in early Roman Empire era in 1st century AD, but its use as symbol waned to the point of non-existence in any coins or banners depicted from late Byzantine era in 10th and 11th centuries AD. It bears no importance to find this symbol in a couple of individual cases from a span of multiple centuries. What is important is if this symbol was in prevalent use as a symbol of Byzantium? and the answer is no it wasn't. The Symbols for Byzantium that every traveler, eyewitness and historical witness attests to are the adorned Cross and the two-headed Eagle. You cannot find even one contemporary historian or traveler claiming that Star and Crescent were symbols of Byzantines and or used in their banners and such. But they may have been used locally here and there and anyone with an ideological mission can point out to these anomalies and make it seem this was an important symbol of the era for Byzantines.

Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians everybody has used this symbol. The important thing is that why Ottomans chose to use this symbol and the reason why is not because they borrowed it from Byzantines because Byzantines weren't using it a symbol for themselves either. Couple of examples of its use doesn't negate this fact. Use of those marginal instances by Internet historians is not proof. Proof would be if the symbol was known as Constantinople's symbol and then Ottomans start using it all over after they conquer the city. Neither of these statements are true. Ottomans don't start using the symbol until 18th century. Any memory of its use by Byzantines would be completely dead by that time even if it was prevalent, but we know it was not prevalent at all.

So let's see who did use the symbol extensively at the time as a smybol of their state on banners, not just on marginal cases here and there in a building or a coin or two. Memluks. Memluks used the symbol as their official military banners, extensively.


Before Ottomans defeated Mamluks in 1516 there was a back and forth about control of the routes to Mecca and a disputation about who has more control over the city. Effectively Mamluks had more control over the Sharifs of Mecca as Ibn Battuta reports that prayers were made for Mamluk Sultans. This is the reason why Ottomans could claim the title of Caliph only after defeating Mamluks and it would be natural to assume they would also adopt their banner as a banner of Caliphate. But this is only speculation and the true origins of the reasons for Ottomans to adopt the symbol are unknown and cannot be credibly traced back to 16th, let alone 15th centuries and adoption from Mamluks and Byzantines as the event happened centuries later. But if there's any claim to be made about the origins, the Byzantine claim is extraordinarily weak and manufactured by Internet historians with an agenda. The Mamluk claim is much stronger than the Byzantine claim, but in the end it is still a weak claim trying to tie 16th century events to late 18th century adoption. But star and crescent as a banner of Mamluks was quite well known and repeatedly mentioned by contemporary sources (as per a paper by Fuat Köprülü), while the same case cannot be made about Byzantines.
 
Last edited:

UkroTurk

Experienced member
Land Warfare Specialist
Professional
Messages
2,684
Reactions
55 4,804
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Being racist and creating slave markets are different things. Europeans didn't create slavery in Africa
 

Rooxbar

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
784
Reactions
59 2,390
Nation of residence
Nethelands
Nation of origin
Turkey
The extent and the kind of slavery in U.S. had no other parallels in history. In every other form of slavery, you could be bought out of slavery by relatives, other patrons or the money you secretly saved. A slave was just another human being that had fallen on hard times in war and such and was seen as someone who would probably get out of the situation in some years. If you were a slave your children were not immediately considered slaves.

The chattel slavery in U.S. became defined by considering Black Africans as subhuman and the black skin as inherent defining feature of a slave. So the theory was that they were inherently slaves, hence the reason they were not allowed to learn to read or marry white Americans (which was an extreme taboo that still persists today in American society). In antiquity and other forms of slavery, slaves married free women all the time and that was one of the main ways out of slavery. So black Africans were considered slaves from birth due to skin color in this doctrine.

Because a slave was defined in the American consciousness as Black subhuman creature, their treatment was extremely harsh compared to other slave-holding societies. And since U.S. was an industrializing society with huge demographic and agricultural needs, the importation of slaves took on industrial scales for the first time in American south. In Southern states, in 1840s, slaves comprised up to 40% of the population. There's a complete consensus among serious historians of this subject that the institution of slavery in U.S. was a unique phenomenon in history with no other parallels.
 

Afif

Experienced member
Moderator
Bangladesh Correspondent
DefenceHub Diplomat
Bangladesh Moderator
Messages
4,797
Reactions
98 9,198
Nation of residence
Bangladesh
Nation of origin
Bangladesh
The extent and the kind of slavery in U.S. had no other parallels in history. In every other form of slavery, you could be bought out of slavery by relatives, other patrons or the money you secretly saved. A slave was just another human being that had fallen on hard times in war and such and was seen as someone who would probably get out of the situation in some years. If you were a slave your children were not immediately considered slaves.

The chattel slavery in U.S. became defined by considering Black Africans as subhuman and the black skin as inherent defining feature of a slave. So the theory was that they were inherently slaves, hence the reason they were not allowed to learn to read or marry white Americans (which was an extreme taboo that still persists today in American society). In antiquity and other forms of slavery, slaves married free women all the time and that was one of the main ways out of slavery. So black Africans were considered slaves from birth due to skin color in this doctrine.

Because a slave was defined in the American consciousness as Black subhuman creature, their treatment was extremely harsh compared to other slave-holding societies. And since U.S. was an industrializing society with huge demographic and agricultural needs, the importation of slaves took on industrial scales for the first time in American south. In Southern states, in 1840s, slaves comprised up to 40% of the population. There's a complete consensus among serious historians of this subject that the institution of slavery in U.S. was a unique phenomenon in history with no other parallels.

And the irony is, the 'race science' is still very much alive to this day.
The obsession of right wing so called public intellectuals with the whole Race and IQ thing is disgusting.
 

Oublious

Experienced member
The Netherlands Correspondent
Messages
2,220
Reactions
8 4,807
Nation of residence
Nethelands
Nation of origin
Turkey
Was nice to go to holiday in Turkey, after 5 years missed a lot things. I loved it no social media for 3 weeks :D. I managed put the phone down.
 

Xenon54

Experienced member
Switzerland Correspondent
Messages
2,181
Reactions
5 6,703
Nation of residence
Switzerland
Nation of origin
Turkey
What does Islam have to do with this? Islam is against slavery. Anyway, we don't hear much shouting when a black person enslaves another black
Eh nope, Islam has a long history with slavery and every islamic empire traded with slaves, even today in some parts of Islamic world its common to hold slaves including but not limited to modern slavery in Gulf countries.

Here is a Wiki article if you want.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world#

1692307510363.png


Last warning,No discussions about religion!
No more warning,immediate ban!
Just stating some facts since there seem to be misinformation going on here.
 

Xenon54

Experienced member
Switzerland Correspondent
Messages
2,181
Reactions
5 6,703
Nation of residence
Switzerland
Nation of origin
Turkey
Was nice to go to holiday in Turkey, after 5 years missed a lot things. I loved it no social media for 3 weeks :D. I managed put the phone down.
I was last year CHF was 16.5 back then now its almost 31, i should go again. :LOL:
 

UkroTurk

Experienced member
Land Warfare Specialist
Professional
Messages
2,684
Reactions
55 4,804
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
"Atatürk founded the Republic in 1923, our slave market was closed in Üsküdar at that time, do you know?
We, as Muslims, owe the closure of the slave markets to the 'infidels' in quotation marks. So, this chapter was closed with the Republican era."

@Xenon54

Öztürk said that with the innovation movement in the Tanzimat period, it was said, 'Let's prevent this', but that all slave marketers rebelled because 'they have a place in the Shari'a in the Qur'an'.
 

Xenon54

Experienced member
Switzerland Correspondent
Messages
2,181
Reactions
5 6,703
Nation of residence
Switzerland
Nation of origin
Turkey
Atatürk founded the Republic in 1923, our slave market was closed in Üsküdar at that time, do you know? We, as Muslims, owe the closure of the slave markets to the 'infidels' in quotation marks. So, this chapter was closed with the Republican era.
Thats new to me, there was slave market in Istanbul until 1923?
 

UkroTurk

Experienced member
Land Warfare Specialist
Professional
Messages
2,684
Reactions
55 4,804
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Thats new to me, there was slave market in Istanbul until 1923?
Undercovered.

Cherkessian girls to the Palace and Ottoman Pashas and
 

LIbyan Soldier

Active member
Libya Correspondent
Messages
97
Reactions
5 289
Nation of residence
Libya
Nation of origin
Libya
Eh nope, Islam has a long history with slavery and every islamic empire traded with slaves, even today in some parts of Islamic world its common to hold slaves including but not limited to modern slavery in Gulf countries.

Here is a Wiki article if you want.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world#

View attachment 60186


Just stating some facts since there seem to be misinformation going on here.
Administrator says not to discuss about religion and even if he didn't say that im not gonna reply to this crap you mentioned . Good night my bro who know nothing about real world and takes his shhity information from Wikipedia ✌️🖐
 

Xenon54

Experienced member
Switzerland Correspondent
Messages
2,181
Reactions
5 6,703
Nation of residence
Switzerland
Nation of origin
Turkey
Administrator says not to discuss about religion and even if he didn't say that im not gonna reply to this crap you mentioned . Good night my bro who know nothing about real world and takes his shhity information from Wikipedia ✌️🖐
Ok my all knowing bro.
 

Fuzuli NL

Experienced member
Germany Correspondent
Messages
3,081
Reactions
27 8,773
Nation of residence
Germany
Nation of origin
Turkey
"Atatürk founded the Republic in 1923, our slave market was closed in Üsküdar at that time, do you know?
We, as Muslims, owe the closure of the slave markets to the 'infidels' in quotation marks. So, this chapter was closed with the Republican era."

@Xenon54

Öztürk said that with the innovation movement in the Tanzimat period, it was said, 'Let's prevent this', but that all slave marketers rebelled because 'they have a place in the Shari'a in the Qur'an'.
Despite two clear warnings from @TR_123456 you're still going about it. If you have a personal problem with Islam which you obviously have insufficient knowledge about, I suggest that you kindly take it somewhere else.
 

AWP

Contributor
Messages
764
Reactions
6 1,572
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
Palestine
Eh nope, Islam has a long history with slavery and every islamic empire traded with slaves, even today in some parts of Islamic world its common to hold slaves including but not limited to modern slavery in Gulf countries.

Just stating some facts since there seem to be misinformation going on here.

Quran says clearly that all forms of slavery is banned. stop spreading this liberal awesomeness shit.

You want some fact ? Take this

Turkey the Secular the Liberal the Democratic is ranked at 5 in the global slavery index 2023 , worst than Russia and UAE

 

Follow us on social media

Top Bottom