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Baryshx

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Yalnız şöyle tarihi bir gerçek var Holokosttan kaçan Yahudiler İstanbul üniversitesine çok büyük katkılar sağladılar.

ABD, Kanada, Almanya nitelikli göçmenleri destekliyor.

Neyse boşverin. Kime neyi anlatabilirizki. Pis PKK'lılar diyelim herkesin hoşuna gitsin.
Bizde nitelikli çöpleri destekliyorlar. Cahil cühela, mağaradan yeni çıkmış afganlı, Pakistanlı, surili, arap, Afrikalı tipleri alıyorlar. Belli bir kültür, terbiye, temizlik anlayışı v.b. de yok bunlarda.

Normalde kapıdan içeri sokmaman gereken insanlar. Kendileri gibi olan insanların olduğu ülkelere gitsinler
 

Ryder

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I cant believe it Turkiye made this into a animation cgi movie lmaooo

Fun for the Entire Family hahaha
 

Knowledgeseeker

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Damn the forum Grammar checker,OK you won.edit my post made you so happy?Felt like a king?
Dear brother, I have installed "Grammarly" on my PC so that I can develop my Grammar, as well as improve my English skills. Try to use it, bro, it will serve you well.
 

Pilatino

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29th of October is coming, so is there any news from the "Ayyıldız Karargah" new HQ for the TAF / TSK? I mean it is supposed to be on that day which is very near now... I hope there won't be any delay.
 

Heartbang

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29th of October is coming, so is there any news from the "Ayyıldız Karargah" new HQ for the TAF / TSK? I mean it is supposed to be on that day which is very near now... I hope there won't be any delay.
I hope they don't go forward with that. Its a literal bulls-eye masquerading as a military HQ. Stupid, stupid idea.
 

Ryder

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I hope they don't go forward with that. Its a literal bulls-eye masquerading as a military HQ. Stupid, stupid idea.

I would do my hq remote or underground.

Pentagon like stuff is all relics of the cold war.

Basically show off to everybody look at our new shiny hq. But modern warfare has also painted it such a big target.
 

Nilgiri

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Yes Jinnah is very complicated figure, just like most of the contemporaries of the political movements of that time period.

It is long conversation I have had with folks like Joe Shearer and Saiyan. As well as many other wise Indians and Pakistanis in whatsapp groups I am part of.

The basic issue is the state was created as majoritarian-religion principle (for the Muslims of the subcontinent, where they were in majority).

Jinnah never shied away from this after his breakup with INC. He was congress party person originally, many forget...and held a fond protege identity w.r.t GK. Gokhale: https://www.thenews.com.pk/tns/detail/562382-jinnah-naoroji-gokhale

The breakup was due to (among souring personal and trust relationships that were fraying with other congress leaders) issue of separate electorate and minimum representations federally and so on (all on basis of religion).....that he was acting as interlocutor for many other muslim groups with the INC (who it was felt at the time were the apex of progressive self-rule movement from the British at the time).

He did have long term vision in some quotes where religion would become less relevant for Pakistan in the long term....but it stands in contrast to many other quotes he has also made (often brought up by subject matter experts like Ishtiaq Ahmed). Secularism cannot revovled around just one or two quotes (and ignoring the context why they were made).

What his feelings would have been w.r.t the flawed objectives resolution compromise (that many argue is the original sin of the Islamism in legal ideology and larger praxis that has since grown and expanded especially under Zia admin) put forward by the constituent assembly is of course unknown, as he passed away....and as you note his political power was and would have been limited whatever the constituent assembly proceeded.

It is schrodingers cat situation given his conflicting statements (they all have to be looked at, rather than selectively picking) and the fact he convened this constituent assembly (and knew well many of the legal minds within it and their positions)....they saw themselves as equal stakeholders to Pakistan's setup under the overall guidance of Jinnah.

It is all incredibly different to Ataturk. Ataturk saw religion was a poor binding glue given his experience with the Ottoman empire. Turkiye was not made a homeland for Ottoman empire's muslims (many co-religionists undermined and rebelled against Ottoman authority). It is almost an inverted raison d'etre used in Pakistan's proto-state ecosystem (to assert against INC especially as things came to a head in the 30s and 40s).

This is why Ataturk picked staunch secularism as the republic's founding (there was never any doubt, the equivalent of the constituent assembly were told in no uncertain terms it would be part of basic law/article of the consitution iirc)....and Ataturk was closely involved in the early republic for many number of years and wielded considerably political power to set up modern Turkiye's "breakfast" so to speak.

@Afif et al. and all those interested in Jinnah and Pakistan's formation may find this interview interesting to listen to and research further according to their interest. Hoodbhoy raises a number of the same points I made in my reply and gives some more context as well.


In an interview to discuss his analysis and portrait of Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan, in his new book ‘Pakistan: Origins, Identity and Future’, Pervez Hoodbhoy, who is internationally recognized for his championing of constitutional and human rights, says Jinnah “was not a deep thinker … Jinnah had many other virtues, but he did not have a blueprint charting out the future of Pakistan. As a tactician he was brilliant. But he was not a strategist … the absence of a clear vision meant that Pakistan would continue to wallow in confusion, unable to fix its national priorities and goals”.

@Saiyan0321 hopefully gives his thoughts on it when he drops by next time.
 

Ryder

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Turkiye Kibris'da kaybetseydi.

Kibris Turkleri icin bizim Filistini olcakdi cunku bakarsan o zamanlar. Bati, Turklerin soykirimi onayladi.

Bugun Israilin soykirimi onayladi. Ama hala insan haklari konusurlar.

Turkiye icin bi guzel derse olmasi lazim.

Ekonomi ve ordu teknolojide guclu olmasi lazim hemde nuklear silah almasi ve gelistirmesi lazim.
 

B_A

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Dear brother, I have installed "Grammarly" on my PC so that I can develop my Grammar, as well as improve my English skills. Try to use it, bro, it will serve you well.
I hate the automatic input system of smart phone , it always change my sentences to a incorrect one.
 

Nilgiri

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The 2023 ICC Men's Cricket World Cup is about to begin today!

Second largest sport on planet Earth, do not miss out folks.

View attachment 61632

Afghans had a pretty sensational game versus Pakistan (and England earlier).

The consummate ease they handled Pakistan with, is producing lot of delectable salt for me hehe.
 

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