TR Air Defence Programs

[UkroTurk]

New video from Aselsan

35mm ATOM ammunition has 150 tungsten balls while Thales missile having 8000!
1 missile equal to 6 shots.

I wonder if SUNGUR manpads could deliver heavy warhead -8000 tungsten balls- up to 3km .it would be interesting MANPADS C-UAV.

Anyway without timefusing, it could not create a steel cloud just in time. Would not be effective.

 

[boredaf]

35mm ATOM ammunition has 150 tungsten balls

Where did you get that number? I haven't been able to find a source on that, I'd love to see it.

And while it definitely doesn't carry 8000 like a giant missile, ATOM itself has 4 kms of effective range and would reach that range in about 5 seconds. If the concern is quads, it would be far more economic, imo, to use a system like Gökdeniz or Korkut than shooting a missile at them.

 

[begturan]

New video from Aselsan

View attachment 69002

35mm ATOM ammunition has 150 tungsten balls while Thales missile having 8000!
1 missile equal to 6 shots.

I wonder if SUNGUR manpads could deliver heavy warhead -8000 tungsten balls- up to 3km .it would be interesting MANPADS C-UAV.

Anyway without timefusing, it could not create a steel cloud just in time. Would not be effective.

okay but if drones attack from different directions by spreading over a wide area ? i think best way to stopping swarm drones programing Korkut's mission computer according to target priority it would be fire drones one by one, example 4 bullets for one drone and contunie for next one. one radar can control 3 korkuts they can work together.

 

[Huelague]

New video from Aselsan

View attachment 69002

35mm ATOM ammunition has 150 tungsten balls while Thales missile having 8000!
1 missile equal to 6 shots.

I wonder if SUNGUR manpads could deliver heavy warhead -8000 tungsten balls- up to 3km .it would be interesting MANPADS C-UAV.

Anyway without timefusing, it could not create a steel cloud just in time. Would not be effective.

Why not creating two in one system? Air search system and SPAAG in one system.

 

[Aqerdf]

Why not creating two in one system? Air search system and SPAAG in one system.

For distributed lethality and weight considerations for river crossing.

But a rotating Aura or Meteksan's smaller radar with quad config. or Ihtar maybe wouldn't change those considerations me thinks too, yep.

 

[UkroTurk]

Where did you get that number? I haven't been able to find a source on that, I'd love to see it.

And while it definitely doesn't carry 8000 like a giant missile, ATOM itself has 4 kms of effective range and would reach that range in about 5 seconds. If the concern is quads, it would be far more economic, imo, to use a system like Gökdeniz or Korkut than shooting a missile at them.

Okay. İ was wrong. I should have written:"35mm smart ammunition of Millenium gun has 150"
Now are you satisfied?

Let's compare compactness of two weapon systems;Korkut with Thales C-UAV.
Korkut is great but could you put everywhere it? Atom Ammunition is much more cheaper for sure, but how much does complete Korkut or Gökdeniz ADS cost?5- 10 million USD.

IIR seeker plus Launcher and 4 x airburst CIRIT with timefuse would cost maximum 150-200k USD.
Different systems.

İmagine, which kind of additional capabilities would have those vehicles, if CİRİT had time fuse?

The answer

 

[UkroTurk]

Why not creating two in one system? Air search system and SPAAG in one system.

I think one gun system is not enough or efficient. Triple auto cannons close all gaps.

 

[Huelague]

I think one gun system is not enough or efficient. Triple auto cannons close all gaps.

If than, barrels should be closer to each other.

 

[boredaf]

but how much does complete Korkut or Gökdeniz ADS cost?5- 10 million USD.

IIR seeker plus Launcher and 4 x airburst CIRIT with timefuse would cost maximum 150-200k USD.
Different systems.

What? How on earth did you come up with such a big disparity between their prices? Cirit would still need most of what Korkut or Gökdeniz needs, like a vehicle, launcher, targeting systems, radars, etc. And it would need to go through specific upgrades to do what you're talking about which would also drive its price up.

İmagine, which kind of additional capabilities would have those vehicles, if CİRİT had time fuse?

This is air defence thread and you started this conversation with modifying Cirit to hunt low flying slow drones. Not to mention you talked about a proximity fuse and not a time fuse. And to answer to that question in this context is, nothing that Sungur doesn't already have.

 

[begturan]

What do you think guys if we integrate full auto shotguns on stabilized turret which fullu automated to armoured vehicles. shoutguns are so effective against drones as we know it can be equiped with small radar and optics. If any drones attack to vehicles it would be work automaticliy. maybe it can use akkor's infrastructure too.

 

[Kartal1]

What do you think guys if we integrate full auto shotguns on stabilized turret which fullu automated to armoured vehicles. shoutguns are so effective against drones as we know it can be equiped with small radar and optics. If any drones attack to vehicles it would be work automaticliy. maybe it can use akkor's infrastructure too.

A "Shotgun" is dispersing projectiles right from the muzzle and this limits the effective range due to big dispersion and lack of accuracy at bigger ranges. We have programable munitions like 40mm ATOM which I think are better suited for this job.

Shotgun would be a perfect last option solution for a soldier on foot for a self defence against drones, but I think there are better ways in which we could use the base and the resource of a vehicle than a shotgun if we talk about a dedicated counter-drone vehicle. We may be able to intercept the drone in question far away from the effective range of the shotgun.

There is also another important thing to note when it comes to combating drones. The further you intercept it, the better. This comes from the fact that the drone may not explode in the air, but instead it may fall due to the damage done to its control surfaces while the warhead is still active. This means that if you intercept the drone close to you (or the intended target of the drone) the chance of it just slightly departing from its course and hitting close enough to its target and cause damage is big. The drone must preferably be intercepted far away from anything important it can damage with its warhead.

I think Aselsan SARP-Dual can be a very good solution and it can also act against ground threads with its programmable 40mm ATOM and other weapon of choice.

SARP-Dual firing ATOM 40mm programmable munition:

If we want to pump things even more we have Aselsan Serdar which can be configured for an AA role after a few tweaks.

The whole configuration may look close to the one of the Coyote, but a bit less complicated as it would be an all around solution:

Aselsan Serdar:

As far as I remember we have a launcher that we developed and is compatible with both SUNGUR and CIRIT so it may be configured accordingly.

 

[DBdev]

Aselsan have several solutions that can be AUTOMATED to defeat plentiful PKK drones that is killing our boys,
It looks like to me that TAF must have figured out it is cheaper and easier to just let terrorists kill Turkish soldiers
There are more where they came from also who is going to criticize them? Well I will.

Same problem with soldiers kits without large full body armors just in case there is a miss, a sniper, or an RPG.
A few dead Mehmetcik costs less and doing nothing is easier.

This lackadaisical Turkish empty head attitude, especially in military officials angers me to no end. I would hang people for treason and negligence if I was in charge of the government.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1807060195412971747

 

[RMZN]

none of them besides the last one seem to hit anywhere close to their intended target though. They keep zooming in on the edges of the recorded footage, which dont aligning with the actual flightpath.

 

[Kartal1]

Aselsan have several solutions that can be AUTOMATED to defeat plentiful PKK drones that is killing our boys,
It looks like to me that TAF must have figured out it is cheaper and easier to just let terrorists kill Turkish soldiers
There are more where they came from also who is going to criticize them? Well I will.

Same problem with soldiers kits without large full body armors just in case there is a miss, a sniper, or an RPG.
A few dead Mehmetcik costs less and doing nothing is easier.

This lackadaisical Turkish empty head attitude, especially in military officials angers me to no end. I would hang people for treason and negligence if I was in charge of the government.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1807060195412971747

First of all there are no Turkish soldiers martyred in a result of a drone strike.

Counter-measures are being taken and there are many drones downed in result of their effective work. So far counter-measures are being deployed at important positions which are far from the terrorists reach. Due to the specifics of the area and the tactical situation on the field, the deployment of counter-measures closely to the attacked positions is a very difficult task.

Some of the drone strikes are from the Amedi-Matin line and some from Metina. In the case of the Amedi-Matin strikes there are villages just below the positions of TSK and sometimes drone interception can be risky for the civilians in the area. In the case of Metina the stage of establishment of base areas is still too early for counter-measures to be deployed. Every minute the situation in Metina may change so unfortunately there's no effective solution so far.

While the strikes didn't cause any damage to our soldiers I am sure that TSK is looking into the problem and soon a more effective solution will be found. There are very serious problems with stabilization of the drones of the PKK and this is the reason why they are so ineffective so far. Despite the PKK's incompetence we know that their drone program is moving and recently they introduced new modifications to their drones so they can be more effective. I hope that our commanders find a general solution to this problem before PKK find a general solution to the stabilization problem of their drones otherwise the situation will become very serious as the drones carry a heavy warhead based on the footage we see.

 

[UkroTurk]

Timefused airburst CIRIT!!!

 

[begturan]

A "Shotgun" is dispersing projectiles right from the muzzle and this limits the effective range due to big dispersion and lack of accuracy at bigger ranges. We have programable munitions like 40mm ATOM which I think are better suited for this job.

Shotgun would be a perfect last option solution for a soldier on foot for a self defence against drones, but I think there are better ways in which we could use the base and the resource of a vehicle than a shotgun if we talk about a dedicated counter-drone vehicle. We may be able to intercept the drone in question far away from the effective range of the shotgun.

There is also another important thing to note when it comes to combating drones. The further you intercept it, the better. This comes from the fact that the drone may not explode in the air, but instead it may fall due to the damage done to its control surfaces while the warhead is still active. This means that if you intercept the drone close to you (or the intended target of the drone) the chance of it just slightly departing from its course and hitting close enough to its target and cause damage is big. The drone must preferably be intercepted far away from anything important it can damage with its warhead.

I think Aselsan SARP-Dual can be a very good solution and it can also act against ground threads with its programmable 40mm ATOM and other weapon of choice.

SARP-Dual firing ATOM 40mm programmable munition:

View attachment 69034

If we want to pump things even more we have Aselsan Serdar which can be configured for an AA role after a few tweaks.

The whole configuration may look close to the one of the Coyote, but a bit less complicated as it would be an all around solution:

View attachment 69032

Aselsan Serdar:
View attachment 69033

As far as I remember we have a launcher that we developed and is compatible with both SUNGUR and CIRIT so it may be configured accordingly.

So far I have seen drones generally detected at close range. This is probably due to their very small size. Considering that the range of shotguns is 70 meters, I thought that an artificial intelligence weapon system capable of fully automatic detection and shooting could be effective in the battle field. As you mentioned, it can be used in a dual or triple weapon systems. Laser, shotgun and atom together, Their ranges will be 70 meter, 500 meter and 1000 meter.

Or shotgun with atom agl which is mobile that can be installed wherever you want On bases or vehicles.

Or fully automatic shotguns which will be very small size.

I think detection of drones more imporant than shooting, those hybrid detections systems has to be supported by artificial intelligence for rapid respond.

 

[DBdev]

deployment of counter-measures closely to the attacked positions is a very difficult task.

This is the classic Turkish response to doing any actual extra work. We don't want to do anything but bare minimum so we say it is not possible to do when asked. That usually always works because other side is too lazy to argue also. Who will challenge us? Those who should inspect, criticize and punish are also don't want to do THEIR work properly!!! We Turks in general have no “personal work ethic” like almost all other nations basically.

How is it “very difficult” to deliver a small Şahin anti UAV system or a man portable UAV jammer, shotguns and handheld UAV detector to each soldier at least?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1806967591141048690

 

[Kartal1]

This is the classic Turkish response to doing any actual extra work. We don't want to do anything but bare minimum so we say it is not possible to do when asked. That usually always works because other side is too lazy to argue also. Who will challenge us? Those who should inspect, criticize and punish are also don't want to do THEIR work properly!!! We Turks in general have no “personal work ethic” like almost all other nations basically.

How is it “very difficult” to deliver a small Şahin anti UAV system or a man portable UAV jammer, shotguns and handheld UAV detector to each soldier at least?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1806967591141048690

Judging by your response I only can understand that you don't have any idea of who's where and what are the risks and the difficulties in the areas you are talking about.

This is not a walk in the park or hiking route. This is Zap and Metina that we are talking about and not just any points of Zap and Metina, but points like Amedi and the Matin Mountain which are open to harassment and infiltration from multiple points. The counter-measures you are talking about can not be deployed when a terrorist is sneaking with his 50 Cal. anti-material rifle or an ATGM, taking out cameras, radars and other systems already. You also can't deploy it a 100m from the tunnel from which they crawled out in the winter and gave us 5+ casualties.

Anti-UAV jammers, shotguns, Sahin and even more are already present there. While I see you posting PKK's propaganda I didn't see you even for once posting about the tens of drones that were downed despite all the difficulties mentioned above. There are already counter-measures deployed, but unfortunately it is still not enough and there's still no general solution for this problem. After the operation at Tepe Bahar starts the situation will change as the tunnel network there and tunnel firing ports will be directly suppressed by our soldiers on the ground. Despite the harassing airstrikes at these points the risk still persists.

There is already an inhumane work in the area you are talking about and by saying inhumane I really mean it. Instead of blindly blame everything on the soldiers and their laziness (Tayanc pasa would eat us all for breakfast in whatever discipline you chose), go read a couple of pages in the Iraq thread so maybe you grasp at least a bit of the situation on the field and what exactly are the difficulties, because you just clearly have not even the slightest idea and not only that, but even talk in an inappropriate tone to me for pointing these difficulties and the realities on the field.

 

[DBdev]

Judging by your response I only can understand that you don't have any idea of who's where and what are the risks and the difficulties in the areas you are talking about.

This is not a walk in the park or hiking route. This is Zap and Metina that we are talking about and not just any points of Zap and Metina, but points like Amedi and the Matin Mountain which are open to harassment and infiltration from multiple points. The counter-measures you are talking about can not be deployed when a terrorist is sneaking with his 50 Cal. anti-material rifle or an ATGM, taking out cameras, radars and other systems already. You also can't deploy it a 100m from the tunnel from which they crawled out in the winter and gave us 5+ casualties.

Anti-UAV jammers, shotguns, Sahin and even more are already present there. While I see you posting PKK's propaganda I didn't see you even for once posting about the tens of drones that were downed despite all the difficulties mentioned above. There are already counter-measures deployed, but unfortunately it is still not enough and there's still no general solution for this problem. After the operation at Tepe Bahar starts the situation will change as the tunnel network there and tunnel firing ports will be directly suppressed by our soldiers on the ground. Despite the harassing airstrikes at these points the risk still persists.

There is already an inhumane work in the area you are talking about and by saying inhumane I really mean it. Instead of blindly blame everything on the soldiers and their laziness (Tayanc pasa would eat us all for breakfast in whatever discipline you chose), go read a couple of pages in the Iraq thread so maybe you grasp at least a bit of the situation on the field and what exactly are the difficulties, because you just clearly have not even the slightest idea and not only that, but even talk in an inappropriate tone to me for pointing these difficulties and the realities on the field.

Judging by your response I only can understand that you don't have any idea of who's where and what are the risks and the difficulties in the areas you are talking about.

What are you talking about I am the one who posted the FPV videos in the first place. How can you even say I don't know about mountainous Iraqi north?
DUDE, STOP MAKING THINGS ABOUT ME OR ATTACKING ME PERSONALLY. Isn't that against the rules? The rules don't apply to you since you are the lead mod, is that it?

Anti-UAV jammers, shotguns, Sahin and even more are already present there

No there aren't any jammers in any of these attacks if they were there wouldn't be dozens of drone attacks with no one even scattering due to drone alarm. Show me where are our soldiers carrying a second gun, a shotgun. They don't even give proper body armor to our boys either. Just compare our tiny plates (if they even are wearing one by a miracle) with American kits.

Even if there is just 1 commando on a temporary high mountain top you can still have a portable jammer or at least an UAV alarm like the one in the second video.A small UAV alarm wouldn't even use much energy unlike a jammer. I was a communications officer in TAF so, I know what I am talking about. Stop trying to patronize or insult me.

Show me on the video I posted where are they, any of it hard kill Şahin, jammers, UAV alarms or shotguns? I know they have some hard/soft kill stuff on bigger bases but they have nothing in these smaller temporary bases that PKK attacks much more frequently.

While I see you posting PKK's propaganda

So now you are even implying I am somehow supporting PKK by pointing out clear-cut, negligence that kills our boys. Wow... This is the sad mentality that is actually KILLING our soldiers. Instead of FIXING the problem, make 1001 excuses do to nothing and blame those who point out shortcomings that are the cause of our losses. Nice, real nice example of what I was referring to earlier.

 

[boredaf]

DUDE, STOP MAKING THINGS ABOUT ME OR ATTACKING ME PERSONALLY.

This is really rich coming from someone who has been insulting people directly and more often indirectly by calling people names. Really hilarious.

Show me where are our soldiers carrying a second gun, a shotgun.

Not every soldier in a squad that is operating in a mountainous area gets one but I know from personal experience that at least 1 person in JÖH squads used to carry them, doubt they completely got rid of them.

I was a communications officer in TAF

So, you weren't in any of the actual branches of military that actually went on the those mountains?

@Kartal1 I'm really impressed with your patience mate.