TR Air Defence Programs

[UkroTurk]

AMK why are we about to buy 100 rim-116??

Levent göksur are flying around.

BTW which warship will have which point defense system? I mean göksur and Levent.

I don't expect Levent will have datalink as its range short.


The Levent launcher could be run with SMART-S radar?if yes ADA Class welcomes you

 

[Sanchez]

AMK why are we about to buy 100 rim-116??

To have spare missiles for the RAMs we already have on our 4 corvettes. How many times are you going to ask the same question?

 

[chngr]

To have spare missiles for the RAMs we already have on our 4 corvettes. How many times are you going to ask the same question?

Not even spare...we just have launcher for last two Ada's.But not missiles

 

[UkroTurk]

To have spare missiles for the RAMs we already have on our 4 corvettes. How many times are you going to ask the same question?

I will try to explain despite your rude approach.
I asked the same question because after that they had revealed the second RAM alternative.
As Everyday they show us tests of new point defense systems , we started thinking Turkish defense industry could cover the gap in very short time.

Regarding the empty launchers of two corvettes, we haven't heard about it.

Anyway what is the shelf live of RIM-116 missiles? If lifespan doesn't exceed, why will we double the inventory? Are we facing extraordinary situation ?

 

[Sanchez]

I will try to explain despite your rude approach.
I asked the same question because after that they had revealed the second RAM alternative.
As Everyday they show us tests of new point defense systems , we started thinking Turkish defense industry could cover the gap in very short time.

Regarding the empty launchers of two corvettes, we haven't heard about it.

Anyway what is the shelf live of RIM-116 missiles? If lifespan doesn't exceed, why will we double the inventory? Are we facing extraordinary situation ?

Apologies, but this was indeed third time.

Alternatives don't mean anything. We already have RAM launchers on 4 ships, which we would need to spend millions to replace even if Levent and Göksur were ready, and they aren't.

As chngr mentioned, Turkey only ever got 48 RIM-116 Block 1s. We were in talks to get more, but they led to nowhere at the time.

"However, according to our sources since the contract for the procurement of RAM Block II Missiles has not been signed yet the deliveries could not take place before the commissioning of the third ship of ADA Class Corvettes TCG Burgazada (F-513) on 4 November 2018, and the fourth and last vessel TCG Kınalıada (F-514) on 29 September 2019. According to video footage from the commissioning ceremonies, while there were only nine canisters (probably either dummy or filled with RIM-116B-1 Block IA/HAS missiles) in the Mk49 Launcher on the TCG Burgazada, the Mk49 Launcher on TCG Kınalıada was empty. Consequently, the corvettes have entered into the service of the Turkish Naval Forces without air Defence missiles"

RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) Ship Self-Defence Weapon System & RIM-116C Block II Missile

by İbrahim SÜNNETÇİ Raytheon Missile Systems and the RAM-System GmbH (RAMSYS), consortium of Diehl BGT and MBDA Deutschland GmbH in Germany, are prime contractors and co-operating partners for the RAM Program. RAMSYS and Raytheon Missile Systems are continuing to deliver the latest Block II...

www.defenceturkey.com

 

[boredaf]

AMK why are we about to buy 100 rim-116??

Levent göksur are flying around.

BTW which warship will have which point defense system? I mean göksur and Levent.

I don't expect Levent will have datalink as its range short.


The Levent launcher could be run with SMART-S radar?if yes ADA Class welcomes you

Because they are not ready? Because they are clearly early into their testing phase? Because even after testing is done it'll be a few years before the numbers necessary can be produced? Because @Sanchez is right and we have ships that need these missiles? Because we are probably going to put our PDS on new ships first instead of replacing the old ones and don't want to leave those ships short on missiles?

 

[Anmdt]

Because they are not ready? Because they are clearly early into their testing phase? Because even after testing is done it'll be a few years before the numbers necessary can be produced? Because @Sanchez is right and we have ships that need these missiles? Because we are probably going to put our PDS on new ships first instead of replacing the old ones and don't want to leave those ships short on missiles?

For göksur-iir i am 100% sure it can be integrated with the bozdoğan production line. However for levent they need to establish whole new one, since it doesn't either fit to sungur or hisar.

For the launcher of göksur Aselsan possibly utilizes components from Gökdeniz (actuators, etc.) while Roketsan's yalman and other's are slim structures, thus they need to invest, outsource or import those components.

It is a complicated game both for the procurement people and decision makers if they come to a point to make a fair decision among them. Regardless of who is winning i would like them to integrate each other's missile into the launcher. An autonomous scalable launcher that can either handle 12 Goksur-IIR, 18 Levent or 32 Sungur would be an interesting platform (or scale them accordingly).

What is the possibility of them to use hisar's control, guidance and warhead section in Levent? What is the diameter of Hisar-A/O's at the guidance section?

 

[UkroTurk]

An autonomous scalable launcher that can either handle 12 Goksur-IIR, 18 Levent or 32 Sungur would be an interesting platform (or scale them accordingly).

There was sidewinder ATGM. What would you say Bozdoğan or LEVENT missile with heavy warhead for surface targets?
One naval launcher would have SAM and ATGM against flying threats as well as unmanned surface vessels.

 

[boredaf]

Regardless of who is winning i would like them to integrate each other's missile into the launcher. An autonomous scalable launcher that can either handle 12 Goksur-IIR, 18 Levent or 32 Sungur would be an interesting platform (or scale them accordingly).

That would be great both for our ships and USVs, one launcher to launch them all together on the seven seas

 

[Anmdt]

There was sidewinder ATGM. What would you say Bozdoğan or LEVENT missile with heavy warhead for surface targets?
One naval launcher would have SAM and ATGM against flying threats as well as unmanned surface vessels.

To integrate sungur on a naval platform for sea skimming targets they will need to handle sea surface clutter and sun reflections, so i believe the same missile can be configured for ASuW. Even sungur/cirit might be useful against kamikaze boats.

 

[Radko]

To integrate sungur on a naval platform for sea skimming targets they will need to handle sea surface clutter and sun reflections, so i believe the same missile can be configured for ASuW. Even sungur/cirit might be useful against kamikaze boats.

Sun clutter still an issue with IIR?

 

[Anmdt]

Sun clutter still an issue with IIR?

I remember reading a document on RIM-116 and it was mainly about the effect of the sun and clutter due to the free surface. The seeker was then an IR but for IIR i would expect a similar effect.

Intrisincally i concluded the idea that engaging a target up in air - filtering sun and engaging one close to the sea surface - filtering sun reflection should be different. Free surface reflection had been a slight issue to me while i witnessed the works on IR signature of the ships.

 

[Huelague]

Can we use LEVENT system on Tuzla class?

 

[Sanchez]

Can we use LEVENT system on Tuzla class?

Tuzlas are our most specialized littoral ASW ships. While they don't have much space left for anything else, I do think they need a point defence AD for Aegean. They are however also on the cheaper end and a Levent system may be 60-70% of the cost of the ship.

@Anmdt , could this section be retrofitted with a Levent like launcher?

 

[Anmdt]

While they don't have much space left for anything else,

I think they have some room left for additional light weapons. If my memory is correct, I recall a quote from an engineer who worked on the project claiming that they had done another iteration on the structural design and saved a significant amount of weight, thus allowing for more payload.

. They are however also on the cheaper end and a Levent system may be 60-70% of the cost of the ship.

@Anmdt , could this section be retrofitted with a Levent like launcher?

I doubt if the shown deck can support Levent or Göksur Launcher (as is), it will need a rework and strengthening. But looking at the current design it can support Yalman RCWS with 2 x Quad Sungur Launched we have seen earlier on Burç;

And possibly 2 x twin launchers from Levent or Göksur can be integrated to Yalman.

To integrate the Levent system as a whole, we need to move the ASW launchers to the front, and allocate the place for the Levent launcher, as it is the only place (after 40 mm mount deck) that can support a heavy system.

In my opinion, 8 Sungur or 4 Levent is still a decent air defense missile for a littoral ship, if possible with an additional upgrade with MAR-D and CENK-100N and Kangal-N system, and if possible with the addition of Şahin anti-UAV gun.

 

[UkroTurk]

10X missile rotating launcher wouldn't fit and would be more complicated.
If they create new compact VLS for Bozdoğan missiles it would be great for all other ship. In such Compact VLS UMTAS could be deployed.


Currently I think SUNGUR is enough for Tuzla Class on the other hand AESA sensor capacity is more important.

 

[Sanchez]

View attachment 71160

I think they have some room left for additional light weapons. If my memory is correct, I recall a quote from an engineer who worked on the project claiming that they had done another iteration on the structural design and saved a significant amount of weight, thus allowing for more payload.

I doubt if the shown deck can support Levent or Göksur Launcher (as is), it will need a rework and strengthening. But looking at the current design it can support Yalman RCWS with 2 x Quad Sungur Launched we have seen earlier on Burç;
View attachment 71162

And possibly 2 x twin launchers from Levent or Göksur can be integrated to Yalman.

To integrate the Levent system as a whole, we need to move the ASW launchers to the front, and allocate the place for the Levent launcher, as it is the only place (after 40 mm mount deck) that can support a heavy system.

In my opinion, 8 Sungur or 4 Levent is still a decent air defense missile for a littoral ship, if possible with an additional upgrade with MAR-D and CENK-100N and Kangal-N system, and if possible with the addition of Şahin anti-UAV gun.

I hadn't seen that upgunned design before. I think keeping the aft with the depth charges and the ASW rockets keeps that side tidy. I agree that Levent or a system like that would be a tad heavy and would require extensive modification to the ship, like changing locations. Wish they had gone forward with a system like the earlier Bora PDMS. Sungur is a much more potent missile than the Stinger, it could give the boost DzKK wanted for smaller ships and boats. Simbad RC also sells nicely. Of course it's not the complete solution Levent is, but would be nice.

 

[Kaan Azman]

Once had this idea to apply SUNGUR on small warships/USVs, open to new ideas

 

[Brave Janissary]

View attachment 71230
Once had this idea to apply SUNGUR on small warships/USVs, open to new ideas

Bro, if a ship has gökdeniz, isn’t putting on that ship a longer range sam, more logical?

gökdeniz (ciws) and Hisar-o (mid range)

 

[somegoodusername]

Bro, if a ship has gökdeniz, isn’t putting on that ship a longer range sam, more logical?

gökdeniz (ciws) and Hisar-o (mid range)

Not necessarily. Both Sungur and Gökdeniz are point defense systems, but their optimization points don’t overlap. Having both on a platform enhances protection, bringing it to a more complete level.

I wish we had quad-pack Hisars ready, as we could potentially fit two VLSs on our small patrol boats. Imagine a patrol boat with 8 Atmaca, 8 Çakır, 8 Hisar-D (in Quadpack configuration), Gökdeniz and Sungur, and 76mm cannon, and a towed sonar.