TR Air Defence Programs

[Quasar]

We knew for some time that the missile would be different than Sungur, no? Levent is longer.

As Yıldırım points out, in a past mockup, they had shown two different missiles in a model, one of which Sungur. Looks like the idea of using Sungur as a substitute is now dead after Aselsan touted Gökdoğan directly for their own program.

Off course Levent is longer and we have not seen Sungur in the mockups of the system for some time. in fact what ı am talking about is twin frontal fin sets we have seen on missile in mockups of LEVENT even in the most recent ones. However, the missile in the launch test doesnt seem to have them i.e the missile in the launch test does not have twin fin sets 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 frontal fins ... This looks like a new missile we have not seen before. Not the missile we have seen in recent posts and definitly not Sungur. As Yıldırım said ''Sungur da değil ''da'' is the key here Sungur da değil..... Yeni füze yapmışlar yine''.

 

[Anmdt]

even more interestingly there may be drastic structural changes on the missile itself I mean compared to missile mockups we have seen so far

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1844429455097553352

We knew for some time that the missile would be different than Sungur, no? Levent is longer.

As Yıldırım points out, in a past mockup, they had shown two different missiles in a model, one of which Sungur. Looks like the idea of using Sungur as a substitute is now dead after Aselsan touted Gökdoğan directly for their own program.

Back in days when Sungur-D was rumored, Navy had certain demands such as two way data link, range and so on. Logically it would yield a bigger missile than Sungur even for Levent Block-1.

Also i am not sure if Roketsan still goes with Block-1 and 2 missiles for Levent, or jumping straight to the Block-2.

 

[Oublious]

The frontside is dirty, looks like several launched before the officially realesed footage .

 

[Saithan]

is it me or are those missile around 122mm. ?

 

[Afif]

is it me or are those missile around 122mm. ?

View attachment 71109

It is you.

 

[Saithan]

I just had to try search for it and I'm not that far off....

But those holes are quite large, is it because the missile fins are large enough for direction and correcting course etc. ? hence the two way link ?

And this may sounds stupid, but are there rills/rail inside the cannister/tube where the fins fit in and stabilizes the missile ?

It is quite heavy...

 

[Anmdt]

The frontside is dirty, looks like several launched before the officially realesed footage .

That rather looks like the first ballistic trial, and the missile looks so much like an artillery rocket than an air defence missile with the current form.
They might have secured the first firing trial with mock-up radar and EO, but there is a known fact, Bozdoğan is a working missile with a working seeker and controller etc. and likely has been fired from an USV in the past month but hasn't been released to public.

Also Meteksan's radar has two pieces (8 in total also referred to use MIMO) per spot on the land based system, but the one used on Levent has one piece (possible not MIMO), what is the difference among them, less range, less fidelity on Levent? More peak power on Levent and eliminating MIMO?

 

[UkroTurk]

AMK why are we about to buy 100 rim-116??

Levent göksur are flying around.

BTW which warship will have which point defense system? I mean göksur and Levent.

I don't expect Levent will have datalink as its range short.


The Levent launcher could be run with SMART-S radar?if yes ADA Class welcomes you

 

[Sanchez]

AMK why are we about to buy 100 rim-116??

To have spare missiles for the RAMs we already have on our 4 corvettes. How many times are you going to ask the same question?

 

[chngr]

To have spare missiles for the RAMs we already have on our 4 corvettes. How many times are you going to ask the same question?

Not even spare...we just have launcher for last two Ada's.But not missiles

 

[UkroTurk]

To have spare missiles for the RAMs we already have on our 4 corvettes. How many times are you going to ask the same question?

I will try to explain despite your rude approach.
I asked the same question because after that they had revealed the second RAM alternative.
As Everyday they show us tests of new point defense systems , we started thinking Turkish defense industry could cover the gap in very short time.

Regarding the empty launchers of two corvettes, we haven't heard about it.

Anyway what is the shelf live of RIM-116 missiles? If lifespan doesn't exceed, why will we double the inventory? Are we facing extraordinary situation ?

 

[Sanchez]

I will try to explain despite your rude approach.
I asked the same question because after that they had revealed the second RAM alternative.
As Everyday they show us tests of new point defense systems , we started thinking Turkish defense industry could cover the gap in very short time.

Regarding the empty launchers of two corvettes, we haven't heard about it.

Anyway what is the shelf live of RIM-116 missiles? If lifespan doesn't exceed, why will we double the inventory? Are we facing extraordinary situation ?

Apologies, but this was indeed third time.

Alternatives don't mean anything. We already have RAM launchers on 4 ships, which we would need to spend millions to replace even if Levent and Göksur were ready, and they aren't.

As chngr mentioned, Turkey only ever got 48 RIM-116 Block 1s. We were in talks to get more, but they led to nowhere at the time.

"However, according to our sources since the contract for the procurement of RAM Block II Missiles has not been signed yet the deliveries could not take place before the commissioning of the third ship of ADA Class Corvettes TCG Burgazada (F-513) on 4 November 2018, and the fourth and last vessel TCG Kınalıada (F-514) on 29 September 2019. According to video footage from the commissioning ceremonies, while there were only nine canisters (probably either dummy or filled with RIM-116B-1 Block IA/HAS missiles) in the Mk49 Launcher on the TCG Burgazada, the Mk49 Launcher on TCG Kınalıada was empty. Consequently, the corvettes have entered into the service of the Turkish Naval Forces without air Defence missiles"

RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) Ship Self-Defence Weapon System & RIM-116C Block II Missile

by İbrahim SÜNNETÇİ Raytheon Missile Systems and the RAM-System GmbH (RAMSYS), consortium of Diehl BGT and MBDA Deutschland GmbH in Germany, are prime contractors and co-operating partners for the RAM

www.defenceturkey.com

 

[boredaf]

AMK why are we about to buy 100 rim-116??

Levent göksur are flying around.

BTW which warship will have which point defense system? I mean göksur and Levent.

I don't expect Levent will have datalink as its range short.


The Levent launcher could be run with SMART-S radar?if yes ADA Class welcomes you

Because they are not ready? Because they are clearly early into their testing phase? Because even after testing is done it'll be a few years before the numbers necessary can be produced? Because @Sanchez is right and we have ships that need these missiles? Because we are probably going to put our PDS on new ships first instead of replacing the old ones and don't want to leave those ships short on missiles?

 

[Anmdt]

Because they are not ready? Because they are clearly early into their testing phase? Because even after testing is done it'll be a few years before the numbers necessary can be produced? Because @Sanchez is right and we have ships that need these missiles? Because we are probably going to put our PDS on new ships first instead of replacing the old ones and don't want to leave those ships short on missiles?

For göksur-iir i am 100% sure it can be integrated with the bozdoğan production line. However for levent they need to establish whole new one, since it doesn't either fit to sungur or hisar.

For the launcher of göksur Aselsan possibly utilizes components from Gökdeniz (actuators, etc.) while Roketsan's yalman and other's are slim structures, thus they need to invest, outsource or import those components.

It is a complicated game both for the procurement people and decision makers if they come to a point to make a fair decision among them. Regardless of who is winning i would like them to integrate each other's missile into the launcher. An autonomous scalable launcher that can either handle 12 Goksur-IIR, 18 Levent or 32 Sungur would be an interesting platform (or scale them accordingly).

What is the possibility of them to use hisar's control, guidance and warhead section in Levent? What is the diameter of Hisar-A/O's at the guidance section?

 

[UkroTurk]

An autonomous scalable launcher that can either handle 12 Goksur-IIR, 18 Levent or 32 Sungur would be an interesting platform (or scale them accordingly).

There was sidewinder ATGM. What would you say Bozdoğan or LEVENT missile with heavy warhead for surface targets?
One naval launcher would have SAM and ATGM against flying threats as well as unmanned surface vessels.

 

[boredaf]

Regardless of who is winning i would like them to integrate each other's missile into the launcher. An autonomous scalable launcher that can either handle 12 Goksur-IIR, 18 Levent or 32 Sungur would be an interesting platform (or scale them accordingly).

That would be great both for our ships and USVs, one launcher to launch them all together on the seven seas

 

[Anmdt]

There was sidewinder ATGM. What would you say Bozdoğan or LEVENT missile with heavy warhead for surface targets?
One naval launcher would have SAM and ATGM against flying threats as well as unmanned surface vessels.

To integrate sungur on a naval platform for sea skimming targets they will need to handle sea surface clutter and sun reflections, so i believe the same missile can be configured for ASuW. Even sungur/cirit might be useful against kamikaze boats.

 

[Radko]

To integrate sungur on a naval platform for sea skimming targets they will need to handle sea surface clutter and sun reflections, so i believe the same missile can be configured for ASuW. Even sungur/cirit might be useful against kamikaze boats.

Sun clutter still an issue with IIR?

 

[Anmdt]

Sun clutter still an issue with IIR?

I remember reading a document on RIM-116 and it was mainly about the effect of the sun and clutter due to the free surface. The seeker was then an IR but for IIR i would expect a similar effect.

Intrisincally i concluded the idea that engaging a target up in air - filtering sun and engaging one close to the sea surface - filtering sun reflection should be different. Free surface reflection had been a slight issue to me while i witnessed the works on IR signature of the ships.

 

[Huelague]

Can we use LEVENT system on Tuzla class?