TR Air Defence Programs

[MonteCarlo]

was already thinking about it. If the enemy missile and the air defence munition/missile has the same speed and after detection it is fired instantly (not a human operator) then they should meet half way, that is at 5km. If the enemy missile is four times faster, then it will be neutralized at a distance of 2km. Of course, assuming our engagement is perfect. Are you saying we don't have automatic engagement? if that's the case then of course it won't work at such short distance.

I don't think a "missile" being fired from 10 km range is a realistic scnerio anyway that is literally MK bomb without wing kit range from the alititude a F-35 would be releasing it. A more realistic scnerio would be an undetected F-35 firing a missile from 150-200 km range for stand-in engagement or 250+ km for stand-off engagement. So do we have the capacity to prevent F-35 to get in that range without being detected or to detect and intercept the missile after it was fired from that range are more meaningful questions imo

 

[TR_123456]

was already thinking about it. If the enemy missile and the air defence munition/missile has the same speed and after detection it is fired instantly (not a human operator) then they should meet half way, that is at 5km. If the enemy missile is four times faster, then it will be neutralized at a distance of 2km. Of course, assuming our engagement is perfect. Are you saying we don't have automatic engagement? if that's the case then of course it won't work at such short distance.

It wont work,missile is to fast.
It only works on slow moving targets.

 

[TheInsider]

X-Band
Frequency Range: 8-12 GHz.
Wavelength Range: 2.5-3.75cm

S-Band
Frequency Range: 2-4 GHz
Wavelength Range: 7.5-15cm

L-Band
Frequency Range: 1-2 GHz
Wavelength Range: 15-30 cm

VHF Band
Frequency Range: 30-300 MHz
Wavelength Range: 1-10m

The lower you go in frequency or the longer in wavelength, the better your chances of detecting a stealth aircraft. Stealth characteristics of fighters like F-35 are optimized for fire control radars in the X-band and higher. If it show %100 performance against the X band, it is %70 for S band, %30 for L band, and %5 for VHF. Values are just examples. It is not like stealth is completely useless for bands other than its target band but the effectiveness of stealth diminishes as you deviate further from the optimized frequency range.

6th generation introduces the concept of wide frequency stealth.

 

[zio]

L band and UHF band can not use for targetting,but we made targeting with S band with siper.On the aselsan radar road map its illustrated that multi static çafrad,we will be discover how effective it against 5th gen when we got there.

 

[Huelague]

@Sanchez @Yasar_TR @TheInsider could someone please answer?

Aren't stealth aircraft optimized against S-Band radars? Doesn't this information contradict itself?

"ALP 300-G, is a new generation S-Band radar developed for long range early warning, with its AESA and digital beamforming antenna architecture. ALP 300-G has the ability to detect and track air breathing targets, anti-radiation missiles and stealth/low RCS targets from very long ranges."

https://wwwcdn.aselsan.com/api/file/ALP_300-G_ENG.pdf

I would ask @Nutuk ..

 

[UkroTurk]

Detection range of F-35 is 10km , ok then? What if F-35 flies over 10km altitude? İt is over the detection limit?
So we should turn all radar antennas 90 degree looking to sky?


Behind the 10 km f-35 is stealth, don't forget.


Also with which weapons could you intercept target that had LowRadarSection ? Just thermal seekers could recognize. At 10km altitude , top of the radar , Korkut won't work. RF guidance won't work. Just IIR guided missiles could intercept if Data-Link supplied enough information.


If f-35 flies over 10km , detection range will be 1meter which is length of antenna.

I don't know how they calculate these numbers. Distance for ground radars? Or from other fighters?
If the numbers given for ground radar ,At which altitude? Radar source emits Signal from which angle degree?

Abi benim İngilizcem yetmiyor, anladın sen beni.
@Yasar_TR

 

[Yasar_TR]

Detection range of F-35 is 10km , ok then? What if F-35 flies over 10km altitude? İt is over the detection limit?
So we should turn all radar antennas 90 degree looking to sky?


Behind the 10 km f-35 is stealth, don't forget.


Also with which weapons could you intercept target that had LowRadarSection ? Just thermal seekers could recognize. At 10km altitude , top of the radar , Korkut won't work. RF guidance won't work. Just IIR guided missiles could intercept if Data-Link supplied enough information.


If f-35 flies over 10km , detection range will be 1meter which is length of antenna.

View attachment 76690


I don't know how they calculate these numbers. Distance for ground radars? Or from other fighters?
If the numbers given for ground radar ,At which altitude? Radar source emits Signal from which angle degree?

Abi benim İngilizcem yetmiyor, anladın sen beni.
@Yasar_TR

I don’t know where you got those detection ranges. But it doesn’t sound logical for the stealth planes. Even RCS values are subjective to a degree.

I remember reading that export level S400s could lock onto F35, 35-50km away depending on position etc. Russian claim that their S400 apparently can lock on to it 50-80km away. With GaN modules and latest technology available at Aselsan, I am sure that our long distance detection ranges are a lot more than what you have given here. I am sure during Iran bombing, when Israeli F35s came close to our borders we had a chance to test their detection ranges.

Radar power and quality makes a big difference. A radar like SABR and a radar likeTyphoon’s ECRS-Mk2 with hybrid GaN modules will have totally different detection ranges For a 1m2 RCS target.

 

[Pokemonte13]

I don’t know where you got those detection ranges. But it doesn’t sound logical for the stealth planes. Even RCS values are subjective to a degree.

I remember reading that export level S400s could lock onto F35, 35-50km away depending on position etc. Russian claim that their S400 apparently can lock on to it 50-80km away. With GaN modules and latest technology available at Aselsan, I am sure that our long distance detection ranges are a lot more than what you have given here. I am sure during Iran bombing, when Israeli F35s came close to our borders we had a chance to test their detection ranges.

Radar power and quality makes a big difference. A radar like SABR and a radar likeTyphoon’s ECRS-Mk2 with hybrid GaN modules will have totally different detection ranges For a 1m2 RCS target.

Didn't s400 got hit with atacms?

 

[MonteCarlo]

Didn't s400 got hit with atacms?

Basically every [insert air defence system] got hit by [insert ballistic missile] at this point, I think it points more towards the effectiveness of saturation attacks rather than the inherit qualities of the systems itself at this point.

 

[TheInsider]

EIRS can detect F-35 from roughly 150km.

 

[AlperTunga]

I don't think a "missile" being fired from 10 km range is a realistic scnerio anyway that is literally MK bomb without wing kit range from the alititude a F-35 would be releasing it. A more realistic scnerio would be an undetected F-35 firing a missile from 150-200 km range for stand-in engagement or 250+ km for stand-off engagement. So do we have the capacity to prevent F-35 to get in that range without being detected or to detect and intercept the missile after it was fired from that range are more meaningful questions imo

I am talking about a scenario in which F35 fires its ballistic missile (similar to ER-300 that we have now) or a cruise missile or whatever, say 300km away from Ankara, but we can only detect it (in the worst case) 10km away from our critical asset. This is a realistic scenario.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Didn't s400 got hit with atacms?

S400 can only hit ballistic missiles with a range of max 2000km that are flying in a set ballistic trajectory. Atacms are manoeuvring missiles. S400 most likely couldn’t target it. Many s400 systems were hit as a result. But then heavy EW and loss of GPS detracted from Atacms’ precision.

 

[AlperTunga]

EIRS can detect F-35 from roughly 150km.

Not sure whether this helps. Maybe it will help our F16s to fight it in the air but F35 would have fired its missiles long ago. So we need to shoot that missile somehow to prevent damage to our critical assets. This was my question and somehow remains unanswered. Btw. are missiles easier to detect than F35 or it is the other way around?

 

[Huelague]

S400 can only hit ballistic missiles with a range of max 2000km that are flying in a set ballistic trajectory.

Why they can not hit a BM with 3000km range?

 

[Yasar_TR]

Why they can not hit a BM with 3000km range?

This range is at the limit of Intermediate Range and Medium range ballistic missiles. These class of ballistic missiles fly well in to space, then return back to earth after re-entry.

For one thing, S400 may not even track it. They are too fast to track and target. S400 system is optimised to hit air breathing planes and missiles flying at an altitude of no more than 30km.

Even the claimed 2000km range ballistic missile interception capability is suspect. The missile will have to be really slow during terminal phase. Shorter range tactical ballistic missiles like Bora may be targeted.

 

[Saithan]

Is it possible to cross radar waves at distance to lower/raise the band to see if anything bounces of it. I mean like waves moving in and out at different wavelength that makes it difficult to avoid ?

 

[Yasar_TR]

Is it possible to cross radar waves at distance to lower/raise the band to see if anything bounces of it. I mean like waves moving in and out at different wavelength that makes it difficult to avoid ?

Answer to that is in post #4183 in previous page in italic letters.

 

[Saithan]

Answer to that is in post #4183 in previous page in italic letters.

Would passive signal relay points be of any use, kinda like extenders that send back information ?

 

[sh. Abdj]

With our air defence systems we don't need to cover the whole Turkey. Israel or Greece wouldn't risk flying all that distance to attack residential areas. Israel can however try to justify an attack on important military facilities, claiming they pose a potential threat to them. We just need to make sure that critical places are very well protected. My question now: If Israel attacks TUSAS (TAI) facilities with its F35s, at which distance can we detect those planes or their missiles? If we detect the missile say only at a close distance can we still shoot it with our Hisar A? How about a Korkut like system which can fire many dispersing munition. How many such systems would we need to protect TAI? Or whatever the number of Hisar A or Korkut, because of some technical aspects (detection, speed of munition etc) it is not possible to protect. I mean I don't think Korkut etc. are that expensive systems so we should produce them in very large numbers (if they are at all useful) in the next couple of year. This is essential because our air force is not up to par due to mistakes done in the past (which we somehow always do and seem never to learn our lesson).

Bro you will be surprised how determinant the enemy to hit civilians areas. They could attack off duty generals or their relatives, or even politicians and scientists or even their relatives. We are talking about a crazy criminal entity, and all of us have seen how sadistic they are. Don't leave them any path or you will regret. Believe me.

 

[sh. Abdj]

I think visual detection network with AI will be the best for detecting enemy stealth Airplanes. We are talking about tens of thousands of systems in all Turkey with thousands in Syria and hundreds in the Sea. Sure the Radar Systems should be covering all the country and the surrounding also but as a start this will be fast solution and first step the second step is mass production of Radars in all sizes especially many small ones with mass production of ground air defence systems. The third will be a great AIWACS network system from all sizes. All supported by AI as the country is a Tourist destination and tricks can be done by enemy using the big daily Air traffic.