TR Air Defence Programs

[AlperTunga]

Ask yourself this question.
If detected from 10km away,how much time would you have to engage the missile.
That will answer your question.

was already thinking about it. If the enemy missile and the air defence munition/missile has the same speed and after detection it is fired instantly (not a human operator) then they should meet half way, that is at 5km. If the enemy missile is four times faster, then it will be neutralized at a distance of 2km. Of course, assuming our engagement is perfect. Are you saying we don't have automatic engagement? if that's the case then of course it won't work at such short distance.

 

[Huelague]

was already thinking about it. If the enemy missile and the air defence munition/missile has the same speed and after detection it is fired instantly (not a human operator) then they should meet half way, that is at 5km. If the enemy missile is four times faster, then it will be neutralized at a distance of 2km. Of course, assuming our engagement is perfect. Are you saying we don't have automatic engagement? if that's the case then of course it won't work at such short distance.

Our (new) AD is highly AI implemented.

 

[Yasar_TR]

@Sanchez @Yasar_TR @TheInsider could someone please answer?

Aren't stealth aircraft optimized against S-Band radars? Doesn't this information contradict itself?

"ALP 300-G, is a new generation S-Band radar developed for long range early warning, with its AESA and digital beamforming antenna architecture. ALP 300-G has the ability to detect and track air breathing targets, anti-radiation missiles and stealth/low RCS targets from very long ranges."

https://wwwcdn.aselsan.com/api/file/ALP_300-G_ENG.pdf

My radar knowledge is not great. It is limited to university physics level.
S band and X band is what F35 is optimised against. S band is the wavelength that microwaves sit. Aesa radars operate at that band. So it is understandable for F35 to have defence against them. However, as @TheInsider has explained there are ways to implement radars to circumvent certain stealth characteristics.
S band has a frequency level where Alp -300G can locate f35. It may not give precise lock capability in theory. But we don’t know what Aselsan has done there.

Most radars bombard planes with signals and measure Back Scatter. Stealth planes absorb most of these and radars can’t receive enough back any data to calculate position. However there is also Front Scatter that can be used. Below article written by a radar specialist to hold some light to how stealth planes can be located. It is just one of the ways they can be visible.

The technical explanation is that FSR ( front scatter radar) is a bistatic setup with a bistatic angle very close to 180 degrees, that exploits co-phase interference of the EM waves from the illuminated side of the target to get a forward-scatter cross-section that is several dB higher than conventional backscatter RCS.

Most radars are like shooting trillions of bouncy balls at the sky and then trying to figure out where a plane is, based on where the balls bounce back from or how they bounce back. If you make your plane very sticky, the balls don't bounce off it, so you can't find the plane any longer. FSR is like having tower A shoot balls directly at tower B continuously. If a sticky plane flies in between A and B, then B will know something's up when the balls stop coming all of a sudden.

So a set of radar systems in communication with each other can and should locate a stealth plane.
Although stealth technology has given planes like f35 a certain edge, the radar technology is developing and it is not long before radar systems beat stealth.

 

[MonteCarlo]

was already thinking about it. If the enemy missile and the air defence munition/missile has the same speed and after detection it is fired instantly (not a human operator) then they should meet half way, that is at 5km. If the enemy missile is four times faster, then it will be neutralized at a distance of 2km. Of course, assuming our engagement is perfect. Are you saying we don't have automatic engagement? if that's the case then of course it won't work at such short distance.

I don't think a "missile" being fired from 10 km range is a realistic scnerio anyway that is literally MK bomb without wing kit range from the alititude a F-35 would be releasing it. A more realistic scnerio would be an undetected F-35 firing a missile from 150-200 km range for stand-in engagement or 250+ km for stand-off engagement. So do we have the capacity to prevent F-35 to get in that range without being detected or to detect and intercept the missile after it was fired from that range are more meaningful questions imo

 

[Strong AI]

My radar knowledge is not great. It is limited to university physics level.
S band and X band is what F35 is optimised against. S band is the wavelength that microwaves sit. Aesa radars operate at that band. So it is understandable for F35 to have defence against them. However, as @TheInsider has explained there are ways to implement radars to circumvent certain stealth characteristics.
S band has a frequency level where Alp -300G can locate f35. It may not give precise lock capability in theory. But we don’t know what Aselsan has done there.

Most radars bombard planes with signals and measure Back Scatter. Stealth planes absorb most of these and radars can’t receive enough back any data to calculate position. However there is also Front Scatter that can be used. Below article written by a radar specialist to hold some light to how stealth planes can be located. It is just one of the ways they can be visible.

The technical explanation is that FSR ( front scatter radar) is a bistatic setup with a bistatic angle very close to 180 degrees, that exploits co-phase interference of the EM waves from the illuminated side of the target to get a forward-scatter cross-section that is several dB higher than conventional backscatter RCS.

Most radars are like shooting trillions of bouncy balls at the sky and then trying to figure out where a plane is, based on where the balls bounce back from or how they bounce back. If you make your plane very sticky, the balls don't bounce off it, so you can't find the plane any longer. FSR is like having tower A shoot balls directly at tower B continuously. If a sticky plane flies in between A and B, then B will know something's up when the balls stop coming all of a sudden.

So a set of radar systems in communication with each other can and should locate a stealth plane.
Although stealth technology has given planes like f35 a certain edge, the radar technology is developing and it is not long before radar systems beat stealth.

Thanks

 

[TR_123456]

was already thinking about it. If the enemy missile and the air defence munition/missile has the same speed and after detection it is fired instantly (not a human operator) then they should meet half way, that is at 5km. If the enemy missile is four times faster, then it will be neutralized at a distance of 2km. Of course, assuming our engagement is perfect. Are you saying we don't have automatic engagement? if that's the case then of course it won't work at such short distance.

It wont work,missile is to fast.
It only works on slow moving targets.

 

[TheInsider]

X-Band
Frequency Range: 8-12 GHz.
Wavelength Range: 2.5-3.75cm

S-Band
Frequency Range: 2-4 GHz
Wavelength Range: 7.5-15cm

L-Band
Frequency Range: 1-2 GHz
Wavelength Range: 15-30 cm

VHF Band
Frequency Range: 30-300 MHz
Wavelength Range: 1-10m

The lower you go in frequency or the longer in wavelength, the better your chances of detecting a stealth aircraft. Stealth characteristics of fighters like F-35 are optimized for fire control radars in the X-band and higher. If it show %100 performance against the X band, it is %70 for S band, %30 for L band, and %5 for VHF. Values are just examples. It is not like stealth is completely useless for bands other than its target band but the effectiveness of stealth diminishes as you deviate further from the optimized frequency range.

6th generation introduces the concept of wide frequency stealth.

 

[zio]

L band and UHF band can not use for targetting,but we made targeting with S band with siper.On the aselsan radar road map its illustrated that multi static çafrad,we will be discover how effective it against 5th gen when we got there.

 

[Huelague]

@Sanchez @Yasar_TR @TheInsider could someone please answer?

Aren't stealth aircraft optimized against S-Band radars? Doesn't this information contradict itself?

"ALP 300-G, is a new generation S-Band radar developed for long range early warning, with its AESA and digital beamforming antenna architecture. ALP 300-G has the ability to detect and track air breathing targets, anti-radiation missiles and stealth/low RCS targets from very long ranges."

https://wwwcdn.aselsan.com/api/file/ALP_300-G_ENG.pdf

I would ask @Nutuk ..

 

[UkroTurk]

Detection range of F-35 is 10km , ok then? What if F-35 flies over 10km altitude? İt is over the detection limit?
So we should turn all radar antennas 90 degree looking to sky?


Behind the 10 km f-35 is stealth, don't forget.


Also with which weapons could you intercept target that had LowRadarSection ? Just thermal seekers could recognize. At 10km altitude , top of the radar , Korkut won't work. RF guidance won't work. Just IIR guided missiles could intercept if Data-Link supplied enough information.


If f-35 flies over 10km , detection range will be 1meter which is length of antenna.

I don't know how they calculate these numbers. Distance for ground radars? Or from other fighters?
If the numbers given for ground radar ,At which altitude? Radar source emits Signal from which angle degree?

Abi benim İngilizcem yetmiyor, anladın sen beni.
@Yasar_TR

 

[Yasar_TR]

Detection range of F-35 is 10km , ok then? What if F-35 flies over 10km altitude? İt is over the detection limit?
So we should turn all radar antennas 90 degree looking to sky?


Behind the 10 km f-35 is stealth, don't forget.


Also with which weapons could you intercept target that had LowRadarSection ? Just thermal seekers could recognize. At 10km altitude , top of the radar , Korkut won't work. RF guidance won't work. Just IIR guided missiles could intercept if Data-Link supplied enough information.


If f-35 flies over 10km , detection range will be 1meter which is length of antenna.

View attachment 76690


I don't know how they calculate these numbers. Distance for ground radars? Or from other fighters?
If the numbers given for ground radar ,At which altitude? Radar source emits Signal from which angle degree?

Abi benim İngilizcem yetmiyor, anladın sen beni.
@Yasar_TR

I don’t know where you got those detection ranges. But it doesn’t sound logical for the stealth planes. Even RCS values are subjective to a degree.

I remember reading that export level S400s could lock onto F35, 35-50km away depending on position etc. Russian claim that their S400 apparently can lock on to it 50-80km away. With GaN modules and latest technology available at Aselsan, I am sure that our long distance detection ranges are a lot more than what you have given here. I am sure during Iran bombing, when Israeli F35s came close to our borders we had a chance to test their detection ranges.

Radar power and quality makes a big difference. A radar like SABR and a radar likeTyphoon’s ECRS-Mk2 with hybrid GaN modules will have totally different detection ranges For a 1m2 RCS target.

 

[Pokemonte13]

I don’t know where you got those detection ranges. But it doesn’t sound logical for the stealth planes. Even RCS values are subjective to a degree.

I remember reading that export level S400s could lock onto F35, 35-50km away depending on position etc. Russian claim that their S400 apparently can lock on to it 50-80km away. With GaN modules and latest technology available at Aselsan, I am sure that our long distance detection ranges are a lot more than what you have given here. I am sure during Iran bombing, when Israeli F35s came close to our borders we had a chance to test their detection ranges.

Radar power and quality makes a big difference. A radar like SABR and a radar likeTyphoon’s ECRS-Mk2 with hybrid GaN modules will have totally different detection ranges For a 1m2 RCS target.

Didn't s400 got hit with atacms?

 

[MonteCarlo]

Didn't s400 got hit with atacms?

Basically every [insert air defence system] got hit by [insert ballistic missile] at this point, I think it points more towards the effectiveness of saturation attacks rather than the inherit qualities of the systems itself at this point.

 

[Strong AI]

Imo every AD system is useless if not integrated in a layered network. Also sensor fusion plays a big role. For example we have seen how useless Pantsir are when operated in standalone mode.

 

[TheInsider]

EIRS can detect F-35 from roughly 150km.

 

[AlperTunga]

I don't think a "missile" being fired from 10 km range is a realistic scnerio anyway that is literally MK bomb without wing kit range from the alititude a F-35 would be releasing it. A more realistic scnerio would be an undetected F-35 firing a missile from 150-200 km range for stand-in engagement or 250+ km for stand-off engagement. So do we have the capacity to prevent F-35 to get in that range without being detected or to detect and intercept the missile after it was fired from that range are more meaningful questions imo

I am talking about a scenario in which F35 fires its ballistic missile (similar to ER-300 that we have now) or a cruise missile or whatever, say 300km away from Ankara, but we can only detect it (in the worst case) 10km away from our critical asset. This is a realistic scenario.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Didn't s400 got hit with atacms?

S400 can only hit ballistic missiles with a range of max 2000km that are flying in a set ballistic trajectory. Atacms are manoeuvring missiles. S400 most likely couldn’t target it. Many s400 systems were hit as a result. But then heavy EW and loss of GPS detracted from Atacms’ precision.

 

[AlperTunga]

EIRS can detect F-35 from roughly 150km.

Not sure whether this helps. Maybe it will help our F16s to fight it in the air but F35 would have fired its missiles long ago. So we need to shoot that missile somehow to prevent damage to our critical assets. This was my question and somehow remains unanswered. Btw. are missiles easier to detect than F35 or it is the other way around?