TR Air Defence Programs

[Anmdt]

Can you elaborate please? Are you suggesting that drag coefficient changes with speed?

UF Digital Collections

ufdc.ufl.edu

This study explains it better with a bluntness study. I don't work with air that much, but i know it would work similarly with the reynolds number similarity.
I don't know how it works in air, but for the sea we apply a similar approach, round entries are better for low-speed better maneuverability, sharp entries are better for course-keeping and piercing through flow at high speeds.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

If RF missile has wider body, than it is less aerodynamic than IIR missile. That should make it’s range shorter.
Again; Why RF has more range than IIR? Please read my previous post. If IIR head is globular (circular) than it should be more aerodynamic. And should have a longer range than a conical shaped head.

IIR missiles are sneaky but have structural disadvantages compared to Rf missiles. Their lenses cannot withstand high supersonic speeds. As the lens heats up, the arrays create blurry images and the missile loses situational awareness and misses targets in the terminal phase, which is why the nose cone solution is produced, but IIR missiles have limited time to achieve effective engagements in the terminal phase compared to the Rf missiles so they generally have less range than RF missiles.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

İ didn't get it.What should we understand according to picture? Maximum range Hisar O+ is 25km or 50km?

So Hisar-O+ has maximum 50km range? Any idea about maximum altitude? Does the yellow line indicate maximum detection range?




What's the progress of this RF version? Is it ready for mass production?

Hisar-O+ on the fire control screen;
Max range:50km (Outer red line)
Effective range:40km (Inner Blue line)
Yellow line: Radar coverage

 

[Turko]

Hisar-O+ on the fire control screen;
Max range:50km (Outer red line)
Effective range:40km (Inner Blue line)
Yellow line: Radar coverage

Hisar O + must be around 4 meter length. Usually 4 meter missiles like CAMM-ER can reach this range.

And HisarA+ might be around 320cm.

 

[Spook]

Banshee seems to be slower than Simsek target plane. (Half the speed of Simsek) . Which supersonic target is tested?

Considering different payload needs to be used for IR testing. Banshee 80 is faster.

I don't know the answer to what target is used. At least before TAI developed one. Some I can think of, They either buy readily available target drones like from Qinetiq, (supersonic drones are limited) or convert systems in the inventory for testing. That aside simulate test on land as much as possible with infrastructure, capabilities. Like testing of RF Seeker heat tests at supersonic speeds, testing nose cone separation with HABRAS.

 

[Isa Khan]

I don't understand why the Bangladeshi bro is so obsessed with the range

Just trying to clear my confusion as i read previously it will have increased range (50km) than Hisar- O and people here saying different things. Also Turkish media and Bangladeshi defense pages previously said that army is interested in Hisar-O but now Bangladeshi sources are talking about Hisar- O+ (rumor for now). So after @Saithan's reply i thought what was the point of waiting for Hisar- O+ if the "O" version does the exact same thing. Anyway thank you @Cabatli_53 for the clarification.

 

[Philip the Arab]

@Isa Khan
Most Medium and Short range air defense systems today will never get the chance to actually take down a fighter with the advent of cheap, widespread standoff munitions.

Of course against a country like Myanmar you probably would have the opportunity for now.

 

[Anmdt]

@Isa Khan
Most Medium and Short range air defense systems today will never get the chance to actually take down a fighter with the advent of cheap, widespread standoff munitions.

Of course against a country like Myanmar you probably would have the opportunity for now.

Nothing matters much else than a well established radar + sensor network and and C4 command.
Without those, a standalone radar means nothing, provides barely enough protection for a single base,not a wide-area.

 

[Yasar_TR]

UF Digital Collections

ufdc.ufl.edu

This study explains it better with a bluntness study. I don't work with air that much, but i know it would work similarly with the reynolds number similarity.
I don't know how it works in air, but for the sea we apply a similar approach, round entries are better for low-speed better maneuverability, sharp entries are better for course-keeping and piercing through flow at high speeds.

Drag coefficient values through water would be identical to air. That is physics. Aerodynamics and fluidics laws govern these. When fully submerged a submarine goes faster. Because it’s aerodynamic shape allows this to happen and there are no external factors like waves etc. But when it is at surface it needs something to pierce though waves and surface water. Because it hasn’t got it; It is slower. At surface the ships are constantly moving from one less dense medium in to more dense medium and back again. When fully submerged, water or air, it is the same. Drag coefficients with respect to aerodynamic shapes are the same.
Because you are moving between different densities at an irregular manner, shape of the vessel and the piercing capability through the waves play a big part with speed. A ship is in a way a compromise between aerodynamic shape (because of it’s submerged part) and a piercing machine (Because of it’s main body above water).

 

[nakaFH]

Banshee target plane's speed is 0.3 mach, ~100 m/s, ~360 km/h. New jet engined one should have almost 0.5-0.6 mach speed ~200 m/s, ~700 km/h.

0.6 mach speed is generaly enough for this type of low level SAM missions.

Supersonic aircraft has subsonic speed during low level fighting missions.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

This forum members have taken my unemployment too lightly. Bruh

 

[Anmdt]

Drag coefficient values through water would be identical to air. That is physics. Aerodynamics and fluidics laws govern these. When fully submerged a submarine goes faster. Because it’s aerodynamic shape allows this to happen and there are no external factors like waves etc. But when it is at surface it needs something to pierce though waves and surface water. Because it hasn’t got it; It is slower. At surface the ships are constantly moving from one less dense medium in to more dense medium and back again. When fully submerged air or water is the same. Drag coefficients with respect to aerodynamic shapes are the same.
Because you are moving between different densities at an irregular manner, shape of the vessel and the piercing capability through the waves play a big part with speed. A ship is in a way a compromise between aerodynamic shape (because of it’s submerged part) and a piercing machine (Because of it’s main body above water).

Those parts regarding to the hydrodynamics is not that easy to deduce from aerodynamics, otherwise we wouldn't need naval architects and aeronautical engineers would have been able to design ships.
Viscosity, density -- flow separation, free-surface waves are more important in the hydro-dynamics,
Even in "dynamics" part, hydro-dynamics and aero-dynamics differ a lot but yes basic knowledge of one,allow another one to be understood for the beginning or the science of it.

We literally neglect effect of the air in the application. The ships hull is designed for the water, that up and down motion, is studied within ship motions (sea-keeping) and flare and hull-shape is studied according to the keep the sea-keeping better not really related to the existence of the air.
The only concern is the air-wake, not the air-drag. air-wake is studied in some cases of which you can see some "aerodynamically" design parts above the hull where water does not reach and used to adjust the air-wake.

 

[Turko]

This forum members have taken my unemployment too lightly. Bruh

View attachment 25483

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

View attachment 25484
View attachment 25485

 

[Turko]

Since Hisar O+ can reach 50km, do we still need G40 ?
İ deliberately shared photo of CAMM ER which is packed in VLS.
İmagine Hisar O+ quad packed in naval VLS.

I think EDAS could be identical Sylver 50 type VLS which is much lighter and more Compact than American VLS's so it would be ideal for self defense.
when SİPER is ready , we could create Sylver 70 VLS or put in a50 variant.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

@Isa Khan
Most Medium and Short range air defense systems today will never get the chance to actually take down a fighter with the advent of cheap, widespread standoff munitions.

Of course against a country like Myanmar you probably would have the opportunity for now.

The world has yet to see the effectiveness of the layered air defense command and control network supported by AI-based decision support software. No one can predict the fate of most modern fighters against such layered systems, so Modern aircraft producing countries want to keep their planes away from conventional warfare. What the world has witnessed so far is independent air defense systems used by low-level armies in civil wars and Turkish UAVs performed very well in these wars.
In addition, Turkey is building one of the most complex and capable air defense networks that can be effective against any threat from 4km to 150/200km. Also, Turkey will support this network with GaN based HEMT and MMIC very high output power jammer systems, so I don't think any country can think of approaching this missile/radar/jammer network other than sending swarm decoy drones. If you ask me, this is one of the highest levels of deterrence a country can provide.

 

[Philips]

HISAR and CAMM(-ER) are not of the same dimension and weight. Hisar is longer, thicker and heavier and would need bigger cells to quadpack. 55cm cells of the SYLVER are too small for that. MDAS or EDAS will have larger cells than Sylver and would be more comparable to Mk 41 imo.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

The world has yet to see the effectiveness of the layered air defense command and control network supported by AI-based decision support software. No one can predict the fate of most modern fighters against such layered systems, so Modern aircraft producing countries want to keep their planes away from conventional warfare. What the world has witnessed so far is independent air defense systems used by low-level armies in civil wars and Turkish UAVs performed very well in these wars.
In addition, Turkey is building one of the most complex and capable air defense networks that can be effective against any threat from 4km to 150/200km. Also, Turkey will support this network with GaN based HEMT and MMIC very high output power jammer systems, so I don't think any country can think of approaching this missile/radar/jammer network other than sending swarm decoy drones. If you ask me, this is one of the highest levels of deterrence a country can provide.

First of all, you are the manufacturer of the systems. Even if you build a great SEAD fleet and claim to hit all Turkish radars, what can you do against a 0 km radar and missile launcher coming out of any tunnel or facility.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

First of all, you are the manufacturer of the systems. Even if you build a great SEAD fleet and claim to hit all Turkish radars, what can you do against a 0 km radar and missile launcher coming out of any tunnel or facility.

SEAD/DEAD are one of the most dangerous missions of air forces. Although Israel used airborne jammers, they lost their most modern aircrafts against ancient S200 missiles, and/or managed to escape by hiding behind cargo planes or have to drop the fuel tanks. Now, they are mostly firing stand off munitions from safe distances against the targets in Syria. Moreover, the country that Israel have been dealing is the Syria which was destroyed with civil wars and lost territorial integrity to the YPG, ISIS terrorists. Can you imagine the consequences of such an operation against a country like Turkey when layered domestic missiles with latest generation TVC control, dual pulse rocket motors, IIR or Rf or dual seeker tech, and AI based command control network, and high power jammers become fully operational?

This is the best part of being self-sufficient. No one knows the secrets of your weapons, and you don't need to ask for permission as to what you can or will produce. Confusing the enemy with unpredictable attacks and unique tactics will shock the enemy, and this will be the footsteps of early victory.

 

[Turko]

in my humble opinion SİPER must be identical to SM-2 MR in order to go further and add booster so that we could achieve our SM-3 and SM-6.
İf we copy Aster30 platform and if we just add a booster on Hisar O+ , we couldnt achieve SM-3 or SM-6 that are SM-2 MR with booster.

View attachment 25491
SM-2MR style SİPER and quad packed Hisar O+ should be launched in same VLS.
So in order to keep VLS dimensions SİPER shouldnt be longer than Hisar's VLS for instance 5 meters.

SM-2MR has 75 km range which is optimal for areal defence.
İmagine İstif class frigate's 16 cells loaded with quadpacked 32 Hisar-O+ and 8 SM-2MR.

When we create our SM2ER/SM-3 or SM-6 , we could create new VLS for air defense frigates.