TR Air Defence Programs

[Turko]

If Hisar-O RF only has 35km range and they intend to replace 'ESSM with it on the Istif-Class the dicussion need to be had why G40 was not greenlit in 2019.

Hell no again we will be deprived quad packed G40.

 

[Turko]

So from what you are saying can I deduce that the physically, the missile can reach longer ranges but due to it’s seeker head’s inadequacies, as it can’t see efficiently further than 25 km, and hence it has a shorter range?

For IR this is the case. Isn’t that it is why Imaging Infra Red seekers are used so that the target lock is secured with the image and flares don’t mean much?
Atmaca block 2 will use multi mode seeker ; RF and IIR seeker head. Why not use the same for Hisar, if this is the limiting factor?

ATMACA doesn't fly supersonic which overheats IR seeker. The problem with IIR SAM is overheating burns sensors because supersonic speed.

 

[Siper>MMU]

So from what you are saying can I deduce that the physically, the missile can reach longer ranges but due to it’s seeker head’s inadequacies, as it can’t see efficiently further than 25 km, and hence it has a shorter range?

It's one of the limitations. But rocket motor is more important. İssues with IIR at long ranges can be solved with datalink.

For IR this is the case. Isn’t that it is why Imaging Infra Red seekers are used so that the target lock is secured with the image and flares don’t mean much?
Atmaca block 2 will use multi mode seeker ; RF and IIR seeker head. Why not use the same for Hisar, if this is the limiting factor?

As range increases, dedicated pixel number for target decrease. It's like trying to digitaly zoom into a photo which taken long ranges from object. In lower pixels, a flare and aircraft will share the same size. At one point, both aircraft and flare will be in same pixel.

 

[Yasar_TR]

It is the other way around. The pointed nosecone of a radar seeker has much less drag than the rounded seeker of an IIR missile. See the following link for example. Addition of a pointed nosecone to the Umkhonto ER is expected to increase its range by upto 10 km:

I am sorry but, even a high-school student knows that aerodynamic structure and drag coefficient of a circular head is much lower than a conical one.

Below shape is the most aerodynamic shape there is. That is why all air and sea vehicles are optimised to approximate this shape.
The reason in your shared article , they have used detachable heads, is to protect the seeker head from heat due to air friction. By designing a more aerodynamic detachable head than it had previously they were probably able to increase range, which otherwise would have been 10 km shorter.
If lift is not required an aerofoil is the most aerodynamic shape and has the lowest drag coefficient.

Physics laws do not change because an article misinterpreted the speed gain with a newly designed cone head.
Just check out the drag coefficient values of various shapes below: The lowest is the aerofoil. That would give you the highest speed through fluids and air.

 

[Yasar_TR]

ATMACA doesn't fly supersonic which overheats IR seeker. The problem with IIR SAM is overheating burns sensors because supersonic speed.

Mica NG missile uses IR and RF combined seeker head? Chinese are doing it with their a2a missiles?

 

[Turko]

Mica NG missile uses IR and RF combined seeker head? Chinese are doing it with their a2a missiles?

No idea. Although David's Sling also has dual seeker, AFAIK Imaging IR seekers can't resist long time supersonic speed.

 

[Yasar_TR]

No idea. Although David's Sling also has dual seeker, AFAIK Imaging IR seekers can't resist long time supersonic speed.

Isn’t that why the use detachable cone heads?

 

[Turko]

Isn’t that why the use detachable cone heads?

To be honest no clue but it sounds suspicious because detachable cone will effect on minumum range. Anyway HisarA+ great achievement

 

[Spook]

Did we ever build a Hisar O variant that has different properties than the O+ variant ?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1413787874344964105

MSB calls it Hisar O

 

[Siper>MMU]

Mica NG missile uses IR and RF combined seeker head? Chinese are doing it with their a2a missiles?

No, Mica uses a changeable seeker. You can use only RF or only IIR at the same time.

 

[Saithan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1413787874344964105

MSB calls it Hisar O

Which seems to confirm that no Hisar-O was previously built. The Hisar-O+ we are talking about is the only variant to be built and SSB calls it Hisar-O.

 

[Yasar_TR]

No, Mica uses a changeable seeker. You can use only RF or only IIR at the same time.

You are correct. It is one or other.
But Chinese are using dual seekers. Also, apparently, US is in the process of developing dual seekers for their hypersonic missiles.
Israel’s Stunner SAM (supposedly a 7.5mach speed missile) uses both imaging and Radio Frequency seekers.

 

[Anmdt]

High speed vs low -speed. It is different.

I am sorry but, even a high-school student knows that aerodynamic structure and drag coefficient of a circular head is much lower than a conical one.
View attachment 25457
Below shape is the most aerodynamic shape there is. That is why all air and sea vehicles are optimised to approximate this shape.
The reason in your shared article , they have used detachable heads, is to protect the seeker head from heat due to air friction. By designing a more aerodynamic detachable head than it had previously they were probably able to increase range, which otherwise would have been 10 km shorter.
If lift is not required an aerofoil is the most aerodynamic shape and has the lowest drag coefficient.
View attachment 25458
Physics laws do not change because an article misinterpreted the speed gain with a newly designed cone head.
Just check out the drag coefficient values of various shapes below: The lowest is the aerofoil. That would give you the highest speed through fluids and air.
View attachment 25460

 

[Cabatli_TR]

According to @TheInsider RF has a range of 35-40km!!
Do we have a definitive source for the range figure for the RF missile?
Also why RF has a longer range than IIR? Does the nose structure of a missile make such a big difference? If it does can someone explain how? Since a circular ball head has better aerodynamic properties and drag coefficient than a cone shaped head of same diameter, I would like to know what gives this extra range.

 

[Turko]

İ didn't get it.What should we understand according to picture? Maximum range Hisar O+ is 25km or 50km?

 

[Spook]

Hisar A+ & Hisar O+ class missiles are 4+ Mach speed missiles. So they should, in theory, be able to stop supersonic missiles as well as supersonic planes. The test pictures we see are with ”Simsek” . It is a subsonic turbojet propelled UAV/plane. Doesn’t any body here think that it should also be tested against supersonic missiles and planes.

Banshee with hot nose is used for IR missile testing. Simsek did also getting updated with hot nose etc.

It does get tested against supersonic threats. Also TAI recently developed supersonic target drone. Even if they were to release footage, it wouldn't be something with detail obviously. It would probably be low res footage, with supersonic missile flying straight. Two dots.

 

[Isa Khan]

So Hisar-O+ has maximum 50km range? Any idea about maximum altitude? Does the yellow line indicate maximum detection range?

RF 35-40 km

So Hisar O RF could reach 35-40 km range.

What's the progress of this RF version? Is it ready for mass production?

 

[Yasar_TR]

High speed vs low -speed. It is different.

Can you elaborate please? Are you suggesting that drag coefficient changes with speed?

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

Hisar O+ can't see 50 km ranges, let's not be polyana for nothing. I don't understand why the Bangladeshi bro is so obsessed with the range, they are for critical facility defences, not general air defence. The system that İsmail Demir has launched as 20 km altitude and 100 km range will apparently already be the booster of Hisar RF, and Aselsan is working on S band radar with a 100 km range, so if Bangladesh needs a range, it will take them alongside O - RF , it will end.

 

[Yasar_TR]

View attachment 25471

View attachment 25472

Banshee with hot nose is used for IR missile testing. Simsek did also getting updated with hot nose etc.

It does get tested against supersonic threats. Also TAI recently developed supersonic target drone. Even if they were to release footage, it wouldn't be something with detail obviously. It would probably be low res footage, with supersonic missile flying straight. Two dots.

Banshee seems to be slower than Simsek target plane. (Half the speed of Simsek) . Which supersonic target is tested?