TR Air Defence Programs

Combat-Master

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We wanted air defenses to defend ourselves against NATO members and we bought the best system to do it, it was a brilliant success. We wanted out of the F35 trap and we managed to get out, another brilliant success. No matter what you want there are two sides to a deal and the other side had their hidden agenda which did not suit our interests.

F35 would have enslaved our Country to US interests for another 30 years, even the F-16 deal will restrict us from using F-16 as we want to.

We need to cut away the chains that are holding us back.
 
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Manomed

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Yes they did, not full tot but they definitely gave more than Eurosamp which only taught Roketsan how the boosters of the missiles are made and literally nothing else.
No they didn't gave us the ToT plus these shitty systems are still inside hangars we can't even use them.
 

Baris

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First long range cruise missile of Turkey, “Gezgin” ‘s propulsion unit, Arat is being developed by Kale.
The project was started at the beginning of this year and the work on conceptual design has been completed. Although they had set themselves a time frame of three year to develop the engine, the MD of Kale is confident they will be able to bring this date significantly forward.
View attachment 47013
So unless we get engines from another country (Ukraine) this would mean that prototypes for the Gezgin missiles are 2-3 years away ? If i remember correctly they said that they would use Turkish engines for the prototypes. It would also make sense with the recent announcement that the Turkish VLS will first carry AA missiles and cruise missiles will be integrated later on. If this is the case, i'm kind of disappointed because i expected Gezgin to start tests soon, but at the same time i'm happy that we started the engine development before/alongside the development of the platform.
 

Radonsider

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So unless we get engines from another country (Ukraine) this would mean that prototypes for the Gezgin missiles are 2-3 years away ? If i remember correctly they said that they would use Turkish engines for the prototypes. It would also make sense with the recent announcement that the Turkish VLS will first carry AA missiles and cruise missiles will be integrated later on. If this is the case, i'm kind of disappointed because i expected Gezgin to start tests soon, but at the same time i'm happy that we started the engine development before/alongside the development of the platform.
I am not really concerned, as the platform which is going to take use of these (TF-2000) is still some years away, hope they can select the f*cking shipyard to build it
 

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First long range cruise missile of Turkey, “Gezgin” ‘s propulsion unit, Arat is being developed by Kale.
The project was started at the beginning of this year and the work on conceptual design has been completed. Although they had set themselves a time frame of three year to develop the engine, the MD of Kale is confident they will be able to bring this date significantly forward.
View attachment 47013

We want to see the missile first.
 

Cabatli_TR

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We shouldn't be going back for F16's because you are basically saying to the americans you can screw me, but in the end ill still come back to beg you. Kicked me off F35 and portrayed me as the worthless ally to the world, now Turkey is going back to beg for the older 4th gen F16's from the americans.

Had we brought the s400 and said to the americans either you sell me the F35 i paid for, or i dont ever buy your fighter jets again. Then you would have a point, but the reality is that the americans have too much leverage over Turkey. Turkey is not in a position to walk away from American weapons. These issues should have been taken into account by AK party when they brought the S400. The fact they are going back for F16's tells me they didnt think about these things.

Now the americans have kicked us of the F35 and we are going back for F16's they know they can keep screwing us because they know we are going to keep going back. The americans needed to feel that they would lose Turkey, to create doubt in their minds about screwing Turkey.

However if American loses Turkey they still remain a global power, if Turkey completely loses America we know have to face the full might of the USA and the east will screw us harder knowing we are isolated.

As Turkiye exceeds certain tech levels, you can see that West is clearly beginning to be disturbed by this situation. As the technological level changes upwards, the Turks return to their essence, form their own alliance, approach the face other geographies, form Central Asian Turk union, expand sphere of influence and intervene in own favor in the problems of other geographies. The West on the other hand sees that the role they have assigned to Turks has disappeared and they realize that they have lost their control over Turkiye and they witness that the balance of power has been destroyed in the fake order they set up to consume Turkiye's energy and they are looking for new traps that will consume Turkiye's energy more to implement their policies. That's why they are hostile to Turks with their perceptual operations in their media. that's why political will always takes a precautionary stance against their "ally" Turkiye's technology requests in tenders.

The issue here is not actually S400. The main issue is Turkey's efforts to free itself against arrogance of West and its general attitude towards their dirty political plans/wishes. Since the US see themselves as the police of the world, the understanding of alliance for them has always been based on the obedience of others for their interests. In this way, they uses state of art weapons they have produced as a means of loyalty to their interests. Now, let's remember some of the major developments in the US-Turkiye relations...

Turkiye wanted to buy 145 AH-1Z and with the technology of that time, Turkiye had requested very limited domestic participation. At that time, the US-Turkiye relationship was in its golden age but the US political authority did not allow this sale. Now, 22 years have passed and Turkiye is striking the US-backed PKK, PYD, YPG with domestically produced T129s and is preparing for the roll-out of a heavier and completely natuonal attack helicopter. You can better understand the reason why US didn't give AH-1Z at that time. If US had given our paid F35s, how could they motivate their new leash ally which they intends to use against Turkiye in the coming years?

Same here. If they had given us Ah-1Z 20 years ago, would they find of a PKK that they could use against Turkiye now?


The US imposed a limited embargo on artillery rockets to Turkiye and refused to deliver the number of unguided rockets and ATACMS missiles that Turkiye wanted. At that time, there was no problem in US-Turkiye relations. After this attitude of the USA, Turkiye started its journey with unguided rockets which it started to produce by transferring technology from China about 35 years ago and reached a more capable rocket technology than HIMARS today, which we can now say is the best in the world. Currently, US-backed terrorist organizations are being hit in Syria and Iraq with these rockets.

Turkiye has requested drones from US for a long time. The US congress again took decisions to prevent this sale. Again, there were no major cracks in relations at that time. Upon the decision of the US, Turkiye started to develop its own drones. Currently, Turkiye is considered to be among the most capable drone manufacturers in the world and Turkiye alone holds a large part of the drone market. At present, Turkiye is destroying US backed terrorists with these drones but in the face of Turkey's success in drone technology, US has taken another decision to investigate the possibilities of embargo in order to prevent drone production in Turkiye why? Because
Turkey is now producing the best drones in the world, attacking US-backed terrorists and setting a precedent for the US's 100-year divide and control plan for ME.

The same Turkiye wanted to buy an air defense system at a time when the Syrian civil war was going on and the United States had started to openly establish alliances with the PKK and YPG. Despite all Turkey's warnings, US closed its ears to the interests of its "ally" as always and continued its attempts to establish a PKK state in Syria which poses a serious threat to the Turkiye. Despite Turkiye's offer at that time, "If the matter is ISIS, we can clean them with Turkish army, as long as you don't do business with the PKK", they continued their cooperation with PKK and Turkiye rejected the Patriot offer of the US, who repeatedly refused technology transfer(2013... 2017). To meet urgent need, Bilateral talks formed with Russia and decided to buy s400. The S400 deal would consist of two phases. The first package was built on urgent delivery against so-called allies trying to undermine Turkiye and the second package on technology transfer. This was an important issue at that time as it was a existional response to the US's unilateral inposing interest-based, hostile policies, coup attempt and embargoes.

On the other hand, The US responded Turkiye with CAATSA and used this situation as an excuse to remove Turkiye from the F35 project. The same US made an exception against India's S400 purchases, Egypt's billion-dollar Russian system purchases as well. Even this hypocritical attitude is a good example in terms of showing the desire for hegemony and control that the US is trying to establish over Turkiye. Turkiye, on the other hand, still shows that it will not openly accept US policies that threaten its own interests, with the balance policy it implements against Russia and this causes the US high ego to become even more irritable.
 

Cabatli_TR

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The current F16 subject was the request of US delegation who are meeting to solve the problems. Turkiye stated that such a need arose in period until TfX came into operation and current US administration promised that the F16 could be sold to Turkiye. I think they must have realized that they would lose Turkiye and lose geopolitical advantages against their enemies but they have senators and congressmen in front of them who they have to convince

We can say that Turkiye is actually testing the US at this stage because we are about to reach the technology that can modernize all F16s from top to bottom if they block the sale. In the meantime, Turkiye's F16 request will be the last aircraft requested from US that hiatory books will write. In the next period, as in other examples, we will take the stage with different blocks of national aircrafts superior to the F16.

What is important to know here is that US sanctions are not the first and will not be the last. Turkey has learned to live with the arrogance of the West since the 1970s but the pains we are experiencing now are related to the realization that nothing will be the same as before, unlike the past. Knowing this, the West is currently applying secret/open embargoes on hundreds of products. We know that as Turkiye's technological development disturbs West, they will look for more excuses but they will no longer find a cure for this "problem" anymore.

WHY?

Against Patriots, we stand in front of them with Siper missiles that host dual guidance, TVC control, dual pulse technology and longer range features

Against the M270s which they accepted to sell in limited numbers, we are standing with the unique laser-guided artillery rocket family with less than 2m CEP.


We are confronted in front of them with the fact that we have the knowledge and experience to develop our own Apaches from a superior mentality that they think we cannot even operate AH-1Zs.

They did not give MQ-9s but we are standing with the Akincis, MIUS and TISUs.

They did not provide the Mk-41 tactical module but we will test MIDAS, which is superior to the MK-41 Strike module this year.

They did not give Smart-S but we are standing with much superior Cenk-S AESA

They did not give RAM but we are coming with Gökdeniz-Er and Levent.

They have embargoed 76mm gun and we are currently testing our natiinal 76mm gun.

They have embargoed the 1500hp tank power pack and we are testing national power pack.

They prevented us from selling the Firtina howitzers with the 1000hp power pack and we are testing our own power pack

The result will still not change and they will not go beyond wasting our time. They know that we will destroy the enemies they support with the frightening silhouette of TFX sooner ir later which has technology that is light years ahead of the f16s. They're just trying to prolong lifetime of the Turk's enemy. The fate US motivated enemies will live will not be different from the results of Armenians faced in 44-day Karabakh war.

We just have to be patient a little longer because past experience has shown that we have a much superior system family in whatever subject we are subject to embargo. It will be the same in this matter.
 

Ecderha

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The current F16 subject was the request of US delegation who are meeting to solve the problems. Turkiye stated that such a need arose in period until TfX came into operation and current US administration promised that the F16 could be sold to Turkiye. I think they must have realized that they would lose Turkiye and lose geopolitical advantages against their enemies but they have senators and congressmen in front of them who they have to convince

We can say that Turkiye is actually testing the US at this stage because we are about to reach the technology that can modernize all F16s from top to bottom if they block the sale. In the meantime, Turkiye's F16 request will be the last aircraft requested from US that hiatory books will write. In the next period, as in other examples, we will take the stage with different blocks of national aircrafts superior to the F16.

What is important to know here is that US sanctions are not the first and will not be the last. Turkey has learned to live with the arrogance of the West since the 1970s but the pains we are experiencing now are related to the realization that nothing will be the same as before, unlike the past. Knowing this, the West is currently applying secret/open embargoes on hundreds of products. We know that as Turkiye's technological development disturbs West, they will look for more excuses but they will no longer find a cure for this "problem" anymore.

WHY?

Against Patriots they did not give, we stand in front of them with Siper missiles that host dual guidance, TVC control, dual pulse technology and longer range features

Against the M270s which they accepted to sell in limited numbers, we are facing them with the unique laser-guided artillery rocket family with less than 2m CEP.


We are confronted in front of them with the fact that we have the knowledge and experience to develop our own Apaches from a superior mentality that they think we cannot even operate AH-1Zs.

They did not give MQ-9s but we are facing them with the Akincis, MIUS and TISUs.

They did not provide the Mk-41 tactical module but we will test MIDAS, which is superior to the MK-41 Strike module this year.

They did not give Smart-S but we are facing them with much superior Cenk-S AESA

They did not give RAM but we are coming with Gökdeniz-Er and Levent.

They have embargoed 76mm gun and we are currently testing our natiinal 76mm gun.

They have embargoed the 1500hp tank power pack and we are testing the original power pack.

They prevented us from selling the Firtina howitzers with the 1000hp power pack and we are testing our own power pack

The result will still not change and they will not go beyond wasting our time. They know that we will destroy the Turkish enemies they support with the frightening silhouette of TFX which has technology that is light years ahead of the f16s. They're just trying to prolong the time.

We just have to be patient a little longer because past experience has shown that we have a much superior system family in whatever subject we are subject to embargo. It will be the same in this matter.

We forgot about one of Main Important EVENT which never ever before happened.
USA - Trump signed and send official Document with Demands and Order directly to Turkiye government.............one of demands was Turkiye do NOT buy s400 other wise USA WILL DECLARE WAR.
This is not a joke...........this is FACT and RTE showed document to Turkiye and World that this is real and this is the Face of psudo ally usa.
I really like it the clever move from RTE back then that he showed document for WAR to public and by doing it actually able to get upper hand on that usa action.....


So Turkiye and world should Repeat and never forgot that usa send official document written and signed by usa president with declaration of WAR against Turkiye
 

Afif

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The current F16 subject was the request of US delegation who are meeting to solve the problems. Turkiye stated that such a need arose in period until TfX came into operation and current US administration promised that the F16 could be sold to Turkiye. I think they must have realized that they would lose Turkiye and lose geopolitical advantages against their enemies but they have senators and congressmen in front of them who they have to convince

We can say that Turkiye is actually testing the US at this stage because we are about to reach the technology that can modernize all F16s from top to bottom if they block the sale. In the meantime, Turkiye's F16 request will be the last aircraft requested from US that hiatory books will write. In the next period, as in other examples, we will take the stage with different blocks of national aircrafts superior to the F16.

What is important to know here is that US sanctions are not the first and will not be the last. Turkey has learned to live with the arrogance of the West since the 1970s but the pains we are experiencing now are related to the realization that nothing will be the same as before, unlike the past. Knowing this, the West is currently applying secret/open embargoes on hundreds of products. We know that as Turkiye's technological development disturbs West, they will look for more excuses but they will no longer find a cure for this "problem" anymore.

WHY?

Against Patriots they did not give, we stand in front of them with Siper missiles that host dual guidance, TVC control, dual pulse technology and longer range features

Against the M270s which they accepted to sell in limited numbers, we are facing them with the unique laser-guided artillery rocket family with less than 2m CEP.


We are confronted in front of them with the fact that we have the knowledge and experience to develop our own Apaches from a superior mentality that they think we cannot even operate AH-1Zs.

They did not give MQ-9s but we are facing them with the Akincis, MIUS and TISUs.

They did not provide the Mk-41 tactical module but we will test MIDAS, which is superior to the MK-41 Strike module this year.

They did not give Smart-S but we are facing them with much superior Cenk-S AESA

They did not give RAM but we are coming with Gökdeniz-Er and Levent.

They have embargoed 76mm gun and we are currently testing our natiinal 76mm gun.

They have embargoed the 1500hp tank power pack and we are testing the original power pack.

They prevented us from selling the Firtina howitzers with the 1000hp power pack and we are testing our own power pack

The result will still not change and they will not go beyond wasting our time. They know that we will destroy the Turkish enemies they support with the frightening silhouette of TFX which has technology that is light years ahead of the f16s. They're just trying to prolong the time.

We just have to be patient a little longer because past experience has shown that we have a much superior system family in whatever subject we are subject to embargo. It will be the same in this matter.
Siper doesn't seem to have any TVC at that moment. don't forget patriot pac 3 has the hit to kill capability! And there is no way MIDAS early verient superior will be mk41 latest mod! It won't have the quad packing capability in early version! it should also be noted that ackinci b is slightly inferior to mq-9b sky guardian. And MKE 76 mm gun is not as good as leonardo 76 mm gun ( it can fire 80 round per minute while leonardo's gun can fire up to 120 round per minute). Last but not the least, t129 is not good as ah-64d, but the t929 will be! Anyway overall turkey is doing very good.
 

RadarGudumluMuhimmat

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Siper doesn't seem to have any TVC at that moment. don't forget patriot pac 3 has the hit to kill capability! And there is no way MIDAS early verient superior will be mk41 latest mod! It won't have the quad packing capability in early version! it should also be noted that ackinci b is slightly inferior to mq-9b sky guardian. And MKE 76 mm gun is not as good as leonardo 76 mm gun ( it can fire 80 round per minute while leonardo's gun can fire up to 120 round per minute). Last but not the least, t129 is not good as ah-64d, but the t929 will be! Anyway overall turkey is doing very good.
Hisar and Bozdoğan have TVC. Why Siper don't have ?
 

Zafer

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Siper doesn't seem to have any TVC at that moment. don't forget patriot pac 3 has the hit to kill capability! And there is no way MIDAS early verient superior will be mk41 latest mod! It won't have the quad packing capability in early version! it should also be noted that ackinci b is slightly inferior to mq-9b sky guardian. And MKE 76 mm gun is not as good as leonardo 76 mm gun ( it can fire 80 round per minute while leonardo's gun can fire up to 120 round per minute). Last but not the least, t129 is not good as ah-64d, but the t929 will be! Anyway overall turkey is doing very good.
First iterations may have a few shortcomings but they can be improved down the road,
 
M

Manomed

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We wanted air defenses to defend ourselves against NATO members and we bought the best system to do it, it was a brilliant success. We wanted out of the F35 trap and we managed to get out, another brilliant success. No matter what you want there are two sides to a deal and the other side had their hidden agenda which did not suit our interests.
Best system can't even detect old su27s and su 25s yeah
 

Windchime

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First long range cruise missile of Turkey, “Gezgin” ‘s propulsion unit, Arat is being developed by Kale.
The project was started at the beginning of this year and the work on conceptual design has been completed. Although they had set themselves a time frame of three year to develop the engine, the MD of Kale is confident they will be able to bring this date significantly forward.
View attachment 47013
I think it's a wrong thread. Should have been posted in Turkish Missile thread instead I feel? (https://defencehub.live/threads/turkish-missile-smart-munition-programs.334/page-176) @Cabatli_TR maybe you could move the post if @Yasar agrees?
 
M

Manomed

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Siper doesn't seem to have any TVC at that moment. don't forget patriot pac 3 has the hit to kill capability! And there is no way MIDAS early verient superior will be mk41 latest mod! It won't have the quad packing capability in early version! it should also be noted that ackinci b is slightly inferior to mq-9b sky guardian. And MKE 76 mm gun is not as good as leonardo 76 mm gun ( it can fire 80 round per minute while leonardo's gun can fire up to 120 round per minute). Last but not the least, t129 is not good as ah-64d, but the t929 will be! Anyway overall turkey is doing very good.
T-129 is not even comparable to Ah64
 

I_Love_F16

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Then why are they still providing the engines to Turkiye ? They provided the F110 engines for the TF-X, the F404 engines for Hurjet and the CTS-800 for the T-129 ?
 

Windchime

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They won't sell us samp-t because French, Patriot is shit and expensive (proven how bad it is in saudi arabia).
Now the copium. The most proven lower-tier BMD, IAMD system is suddenly shit haha.

Russians have decades of experience in AD, and Turkey needs air defence systems more than stealth fighters, that's a fact.
And decades of experience of getting jammed, dodged, suppressed and destroyed by the F-16s, and more recently, TB-2s. Quite a feat indeed.

We wanted air defenses to defend ourselves against NATO members and we bought the best system to do it, it was a brilliant success. We wanted out of the F35 trap and we managed to get out, another brilliant success. No matter what you want there are two sides to a deal and the other side had their hidden agenda which did not suit our interests.
I clearly remember how the Turkish government was arguing that removing Türkiye from the JSF program is a loss for both parties. Hardly "wanted out of the F35 trap"
 
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Zafer

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Now the copium. The most proven lower-tier BMD, IAMD system is suddenly shit haha.


And decades of experience of getting jammed, dodged, supressed and destroyed by the F-16s, and more recently, TB-2s. Quite a feat indeed.


I clearly remember how the Turkish government was arguing that removing Türkiye from the JSF program is a loss for both parties. Hardly "wanted out of the F35 trap"
Yes we have been wronged, and we want a payback. But policies change and the new situation works for our new strategy. Still a payback is due.
 

Cabatli_TR

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Then why are they still providing the engines to Turkiye ? They provided the F110 engines for the TF-X, the F404 engines for Hurjet and the CTS-800 for the T-129 ?

There is no situation that will pose a problem for them at the moment. They make money through the company they partner with. When the armed version of Hürjet appears and this aircraft lands and takes off on the aircraft carrier or fires Gökdoğan in the Aegean, or TFX goes into production or sales negotiations begin, embargoes are tried to be discussed at that time. That's why Tusaş and other Turkish companies are working to make everything national, from the ejection seat to the canopy. They can more or less predict what they will encounter.

The Atak project was subcontracted by an Italian/British partner company and the LHTEC engine is indirectly given to this consortium. The production permit on the other hand was carried out in line with a strategy not to interfere with the interests of the Western company. When this engine came to the agenda of a sale, then the embargo came to the agenda. The engine license permission obtained by Leonardo can only be used in production for Turkiye. The Philippines, on the other hand, was able to get this permission for the engine, using its own influence, although it was difficult but Turkiye could not get permission for Pakistan and another country. That's the main reason Turkiye selected Ukrainian engine for T929 (Even if TEI produced T700 turboshaft) until domestic solution become operational
 

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Then why are they still providing the engines to Turkiye ? They provided the F110 engines for the TF-X, the F404 engines for Hurjet and the CTS-800 for the T-129 ?
I think they want to hear "we were fine with that engines but the government did blah blah and now we have to wait for domestic engines so we have to wait for years." kind of things from the people to damage government credibility. Or they want to show us you can't do it without us etc idk just brainstorming.
 

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