TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Heartbang]

Menendez has to have blackmail on people high up because anybody else in as much deep s**t as he is legally would've been forced to resign ages ago.

Nah everyone's equally knee deep in the that's just status quo for everyone there. They just found cocaine in the WH!

 

[zio]

We should not give 20 billion to USA,modernization of F16 and some AA missiles is enough ,but unfortunately our army wants like Turkish serpme breakfeast

 

[Anastasius]

Nah everyone's equally knee deep in the that's just status quo for everyone there. They just found cocaine in the WH!

Eh, not the first time. Bill Clinton was notorious for having the good stuff around during his two terms.

 

[Zafer]

It is only a few months to the expected date Kaan is supposed to fly and once he flies as expected it is only engines that we need to secure. With all the other plane projects we do not need to shovel lots of money into new F16 procurement. All we need to do is to upgrade the older models with a mix of domestic and purchased means in the light of the latest developments. I would simply use the invested F35 money towards such procurement and move on.

 

[boredaf]

It is only a few months to the expected date Kaan is supposed to fly and once he flies as expected it is only engines that we need to secure.

You are oversimplifying this way too much.

We have prototype that still has to go through several changes, from what I understand by what I read here, before it is ready to fly. We may have enough engine for the prototypes we build, but no more. And we don't even have an engine half as powerful as what we need, and what we have seen so far hasn't even been turned on, let alone actually fly. An engine good enough for Kaan is one of the hardest feat of engineering on the planet, regardless of our previous experience on other engines and it is not something that can be taken lightly.

While I do not like the idea of groveling before US or the West in general to get something we need, we cannot afford to put all our eggs on Kaan and hope that nobody will threaten us in the next 15 years, until we have enough of our own jets. We need an interim solution whether we like it or not.

 

[Zafer]

You are oversimplifying this way too much.

We have prototype that still has to go through several changes, from what I understand by what I read here, before it is ready to fly. We may have enough engine for the prototypes we build, but no more. And we don't even have an engine half as powerful as what we need, and what we have seen so far hasn't even been turned on, let alone actually fly. An engine good enough for Kaan is one of the hardest feat of engineering on the planet, regardless of our previous experience on other engines and it is not something that can be taken lightly.

While I do not like the idea of groveling before US or the West in general to get something we need, we cannot afford to put all our eggs on Kaan and hope that nobody will threaten us in the next 15 years, until we have enough of our own jets. We need an interim solution whether we like it or not.

I would give 5 years to a flyable engine while you want to give 15.

Given the pace of progress in the TFX development I would be optimistic that the remaining development work will be as fast, as the political support is still there.

Add to this that the only major threat to Turkiye comes from the West and not the East relying on the West more and more is not a viable option. We can only rely on ourselves and we should spend our money on strengthening our own technology base rather than somebody else's.

 

[boredaf]

I would give 5 years to a flyable engine while you want to give 15.

It isn't just flyable engine though, even though 5 years is an insane timetable given that we don't even have an engine capable of flying with half the power necessary for Kaan. And even if we somehow manage to make and fly an engine, we would still need to build them in enough numbers. And even if we did that, we don't have the capability to churn out enough Kaan to deter any threat in a short amount of time. Even if we had the engine and everything else ready by 2030, it'll take years before we have enough planes.

Add to this that the only major threat to Turkiye comes from the west and not the east relying on the west more and more is not a viable option. We can only rely on ourselves and we should spend our money on strenghtening our own technology base rather than somebody elses.

You want to cut off your nose to spite your face. We are already investing in our technology but the reality of the situation is we are far away from having our own meet our every need. You can be as optimistic as you want but that is the reality of the situation. We need *something* as soon as possible, not an ideal that might not even get into production in 10 years.

 

[Zafer]

It isn't just flyable engine though, even though 5 years is an insane timetable given that we don't even have an engine capable of flying with half the power necessary for Kaan. And even if we somehow manage to make and fly an engine, we would still need to build them in enough numbers. And even if we did that, we don't have the capability to churn out enough Kaan to deter any threat in a short amount of time. Even if we had the engine and everything else ready by 2030, it'll take years before we have enough planes.



You want to cut off your nose to spite your face. We are already investing in our technology but the reality of the situation is we are far away from having our own meet our every need. You can be as optimistic as you want but that is the reality of the situation. We need *something* as soon as possible, not an ideal that might not even get into production in 10 years.

The reality of the situation is we haven't started engine development just today, we have some background in it and in 5 more years we can get there. I am being realistic, you are being pessimistic.

We are some of the frontrunners in unmanned fighters too, and it is also part of the picture.

 

[uçuyorum]

I would give 5 years to a flyable engine while you want to give 15.

Given the pace of progress in the TFX development I would be optimistic that the remaining development work will be as fast, as the political support is still there.

Add to this that the only major threat to Turkiye comes from the West and not the East relying on the West more and more is not a viable option. We can only rely on ourselves and we should spend our money on strengthening our own technology base rather than somebody else's.

15 is said by Mahmut Akşit, so yeah.

 

[Zafer]

15 is said by Mahmut Akşit, so yeah.

Are you saying we need 15 more years, if not what are you saying?

 

[Ahlatshah]

The reality of the situation is we haven't started engine development just today, we have some background in it and in 5 more years we can get there. I am being realistic, you are being pessimistic.

We are some of the frontrunners in unmanned fighters too, and it is also part of the picture.

We should not make a plan based on 'hope' or 'realistic' scenario, we have to make a plan for the worst situation. I do believe we can make a good engine and fighter jet, also we will have UCAVs, but there are thousands of things may go wrong and may extend our timeline. For that reason we need those F16s. We must find a way to get them, along with engines for the Kaan.

May this be the our last arm purchase from Americans.

Amin

 

[godel44]

Agree on the need to upgrade F-16s until Kaan arrives, disagree on buying it from Americans rather than using Ozgur. $20B is too much money to be spent on external purchases.

 

[dBSPL]

Agree on the need to upgrade F-16s until Kaan arrives, disagree on buying it from Americans rather than using Ozgur. $20B is too much money to be spent on external purchases.

Worse, if this $20 billion is only for the combatant fleets, there are other needs that could amount to about as much as this. Especially in logistics and some specific types, aircrafts, ground platforms etc. Unfortunately, our air force has been slow in acquiring new aircraft platforms for a long time (and the JSF issue was the candle on the cake), while the risks in the region have been increasing in the opposite proportion. A similar situation applies to our naval forces. Fortunately, the strategic planning there has begun to yield results, and in 5-6 years we may be able to close this gap - if we do not pursue fantasies - . Our air force is not close to that point yet, and the expansion of the F-16 ÖZGÜR project could be a way out to get closer, but as far as I can understand, the staff is not fully convinced about this, or there are other things, obstacles, we don't know yet.

 

[Afif]

but as far as I can understand, the staff is not fully convinced about this, or there are other things we don't know.

Didn't we hear definitive announcement from Ismail Demir that ÖZGÜR would be extended to block 40 and 50?

 

[dBSPL]

Didn't we hear definitive announcement from Ismail Demir that ÖZGÜR would be extended to block 40 and 50?

Yes, but at what pace, at what rate? Please explain this $20 billion to me in such a way that I can be more hopeful about the future of a sophisticated modernization program arising from the OZGUR project. I don't know how we will squeeze ÖZGÜR into the same period when we are signing the largest project development and serial production contracts for the KAAN and Hurjet projects in the history of the Turkish defense industry for the next 10 years, while at the same time signing the largest aviation purchase contract in our history from the USA. Either this speculated figure is complete nonsense, or the budget of the Ministry of Defense will increase 2-3 times.

 

[Sanchez]

Didn't we hear definitive announcement from Ismail Demir that ÖZGÜR would be extended to block 40 and 50?

Which is not possible without agreement and support from US, lest we become Iranized. We want to cut our umbilical cord to US so to say, but we need American help in doing so. Kinda ironic, actually.

Per the 20bn number, we simply don't know what it entails as we previously discussed. Just that it has 40 new frames, 79 B70 kits, 400 AAMs and 800 PGMs, spares, training and everything else. We also won't be able to use our own weapons on B70s. Which got me thinking, is it at all possible that the 20bn figure also includes adding our weapons to B70s by Lockheed.

 

[uçuyorum]

Which is not possible without agreement and support from US, lest we become Iranized. We want to cut our umbilical cord to US so to say, but we need American help in doing so. Kinda ironic, actually.

Per the 20bn number, we simply don't know what it entails as we previously discussed. Just that it has 40 new frames, 79 B70 kits, 400 AAMs and 800 PGMs, spares, training and everything else. We also won't be able to use our own weapons on B70s. Which got me thinking, is it at all possible that the 20bn figure also includes adding our weapons to B70s by Lockheed.

Let me do a rough calculation with wikipedia and other public figures.
Unit price for F16 Block 70 is quoted at around 80 mil. 3.2 billion for 40 aircraft, I'd say 50 mil per kit for 80, considering a Block 50 was 18 mil in in 1998 and would probably be closer to 30 today. That's another 4 bil, so 7.2. Around a mil per amraam. But these are just unit costs with nothing else included, with spares and support etc. its not doffocult to get to 20. Rule of thumb is a jet costs 2-3 times its original price to operate over several decades, some of those costs are here.

 

[Huelague]

Revision of customs union was always on the table and eu side waited for the elections expecting the victory of KK, but ok since RTE has 5 more years they are not against to agree with him since they really want modernization of Customs Union.

When will the customs union updated?

 

[Afif]

Which is not possible without agreement and support from US, lest we become Iranized. We want to cut our umbilical cord to US so to say, but we need American help in doing so. Kinda ironic, actually.

I strongly suspect, F-16 that didn't undergo Peace Onyx III (PO-III) programme can be upgraded to ÖZGÜR.

"Interestingly, the air-launch of the BOZDOĞAN missile was performed from an F-16C Block 40 aircraft, which did not receive avionic upgrades under PO-III and F-16 MSM Projects. The non-modernized F-16C/D Block 30 and Block 40 aircraft are equipped with the older generation mission computer, and source codes of the Operational Flight Program (OFP) that runs on this mission computer were purchased by Turkey many years ago."

President ERDOĞAN Announces Successful Test of BOZDOĞAN WVR Air-to-Air Missile

On April 14, 2021, President Recep Tayyip ERDOĞAN announced that the BOZDOĞAN IIR guided within visual range (WVR) air-to-air missile developed by youth Turkish technicians and engineers under GÖKTUĞ Project has successfully destroyed its target (TUSAŞ`s ŞİMŞEK high-Speed target Drone) during...

www.defenceturkey.com

And according to this news, the numbers of F-16 modernized under PO-III ws 163.

TAI hands over last upgraded F-16 aircraft to Turkish Air Force - Airforce Technology

Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) has handed over the final upgraded F-16 Fighting Falcon aircraft to the Turkish Air Force during a ceremony at its facility in Ankara.

www.airforce-technology.com

Conclusion- So, that should leaves roughly 80 F-16.
Given 35 of them are already undergoing ÖZGÜR modernization.
That leaves 45 more that Turkey has source codes of.
@dBSPL

 

[Chocopie]

$20 billion is an insane price for 40 F-16Vs, 80 upgrade kits and unknown no. of missiles and services.

For $23.1 billion Japan ordered 105 F-35s in 2020, deal package included:
- additional 5 P&W F135 engines as spare
- F-35-unique infrared flares
- reprogramming centre access and F-35 performance-based logistics
- software development and integration
- flight test instrumentation
- aircraft ferry and tanker support
- spare and repair parts
- support equipment, tools and test equipment
- technical data and publications
- personnel training and training equipment
- US government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services
- other related elements of logistics support

Dunno if it got approval from US Congress yet.
https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major-arms-sales/japan-f-35-joint-strike-fighter-aircraft-0

US approves sale of 105 F-35 Joint Strike Fighter aircraft to Japan

The US Department of State has approved a potential USD23.11 billion Foreign Military Sale (FMS) to Japan of 105 Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter...

www.janes.com