TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Yasar_TR]

Re : Typhoon sales to Turkey and Saudi Arabia, (dated 30th Nov)

Excerpt taken from The Financial Times:

Quote:
Berlin’s change of tack could prove diplomatically awkward: Turkey, a Nato ally, has also asked to buy 40 Typhoons, and Germany has refused. Making the case that Riyadh is a more sound regional partner than Ankara and deserving of a big arms deal risks aggravating tense relations with Turkey. In a sign of the mounting external pressure on Berlin, Britain this month resubmitted an earlier offer to sell 48 new Typhoon aircraft to Saudi, three people familiar with the situation confirmed. The offer includes details of what support and training would be provided by the UK and its main defence group BAE Systems over the lifespan of the jets. A promise to eventually manufacture the aircraft in the kingdom is also included, the people said.
Unquote.

This is how our close ally Germany sees us. “ less dependable than Saudi Arabia.“

It is interesting to note that a promise of production of the jets in Saudi Arabia is also given.

One can not help but think if Turkey done away with the 79 upgrade kits and 40 F16s, and upped he order for Typhoons to 80 + 40 planes , totalling 120, would UK agree to manufacture these in Tusas? If so what would the timeline be? Can UK, Italy and Spain fill in the void left by the loss of 33% German contribution?

Here is another excerpt taken from The Daily Express:

Quote:
“in the event of World War Three then clearly the UK would be able to restart or ramp up Typhoon production here in Britain".

A Government spokesman said: “When considering any potential export of Eurofighter, we work closely with the governments of Germany, Italy and Spain, in line with the commitments each nation has made to support the others’ exports.
Unquote.

So;
1. Each country of the consortium has committed to support the others’ export sales.
2. If needed UK can manufacture the complete plane in Britain.
3. Or alternatively set up a manufacturing line in the country that are buying the planes.

These events show that Germany can not be a dependable defence partner and an ally. Our future dealings with them should reflect that sentiment!

 

[Merzifonlu]

These events show that Germany can not be a dependable defence partner and an ally. Our future dealings with them should reflect that sentiment!

This is nothing new. We have known this since the 1990s. Some Europeans are just beginning to understand. The same is true for the USA. That is why we are taking these two "allies" out of the supply chain in our arms supply. Most of the task has been accomplished, little remains.

 

[Fatman17]

To my honorable Turkish members. Can someone update me on the status of delivery of 52 Super Mushak basic trainer to the TuAF. Thanks

 

[Fatman17]

To my honorable Turkish members. Can someone update me on the status of delivery of 52 Super Mushak basic trainer to the TuAF. Thanks

 

[Nutuk]

To my honorable Turkish members. Can someone update me on the status of delivery of 52 Super Mushak basic trainer to the TuAF. Thanks

Good question, we do not hear much about that anymore.

After some initial deliveries we stopped seeing any news regarding Super Mushak. Could be that it is halted since T_129 to Pakistan is also on halt, i do not know and speculate here.

 

[Fatman17]

Good question, we do not hear much about that anymore.

After some initial deliveries we stopped seeing any news regarding Super Mushak. Could be that it is halted since T_129 to Pakistan is also on halt, i do not know and speculate here.

Super Mushak has no USA systems. It had the lycoming engine but has been replaced by a Chinese/ Ukrainian engine. I'm sure there is no connection with the T-129 situation.

 

[Fatman17]

PAC MFI-17 Mushshak​

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"Mushshak" redirects here. For the village in Iran, see Mushak, Iran. For Mushak Kariz in Afghanistan, see List of places in Afghanistan.
The PAC MFI-17 Mushshak (Urdu: مشاق) (English: Proficient) is a license-built fixed-gear basic trainer aircraft manufactured by PAC. An improved version of the Saab Safari (MFI-15), the MFI-17 is manufactured in Kamra, Pakistan, by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC). Built to Mil-Spec and fully aerobatic, it is used for training, towing and other ground support roles. An upgraded version, the PAC Super Mushshak, has also been produced by PAC. As of 2022, there were 477 MFI-15/17/395 in use, making it one of the most commonly used training aircraft in the world.[1]

MFI-17 Mushshak Super Mushshak
A PAC MFI-17 Mushshak in flight
Role	Basic training aircraft, Light attack aircraft
National origin	Pakistan
Manufacturer	Pakistan Aeronautical Complex
First flight	1981
Status	In service
Primary users	Pakistan Air Force Turkish Air Force Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force Royal Saudi Air Force
Produced	1981–present
Number built	488
Developed from	Saab Safari

 

[Spitfire9]

One can not help but think if Turkey done away with the 79 upgrade kits and 40 F16s, and upped he order for Typhoons to 80 + 40 planes , totalling 120, would UK agree to manufacture these in Tusas? If so what would the timeline be? Can UK, Italy and Spain fill in the void left by the loss of 33% German contribution?

Here is another excerpt taken from The Daily Express:

Quote:
“in the event of World War Three then clearly the UK would be able to restart or ramp up Typhoon production here in Britain".

A Government spokesman said: “When considering any potential export of Eurofighter, we work closely with the governments of Germany, Italy and Spain, in line with the commitments each nation has made to support the others’ exports.
Unquote.

So;
1. Each country of the consortium has committed to support the others’ export sales.
2. If needed UK can manufacture the complete plane in Britain.
3. Or alternatively set up a manufacturing line in the country that are buying the planes.

These events show that Germany can not be a dependable defence partner and an ally. Our future dealings with them should reflect that sentiment!

 

[Spitfire9]

IIRC there are provisions in the Eurofighter agreement to cover the possibility of a partner being prohibited from supplying by its government. Whether it is practical to set up an alternative supply to resolve such an eventuality is debatable. The number of aircraft involved must be relevant, must it not? And the extra time it would require before aircraft could be delivered. If KSA still wants 48 Typhoons and Turkiye wants 40 or more, that number of 88 might be practical in terms of setting up substitute production for German parts.

How BAE Systems could estimate delivery date I do not know but the starting point might be for KSA to order 48 and for Turkiye to order 40, subject to later price and delivery date confirmation. On that basis Eurofighter could estimate the cost of producing the parts required and when they would be available. It would also put Germany under pressure - either relent on blocking the KSA and Turkiye deals or let German industry lose that business (even if there were a change in government policy with a new government in 2025).

 

[Ravager]

Having too many could be a detriment too. I was thinking we should have 1000 TB2, Anka, Aksungur etc. in our inventory (yeah I love overkill).

But it's better to spread it out and build according to need, while having backups.

I don't know what the criteria for backup is, but I want the enemy to know that we are not in any problem if they shoot down 20-40 ucavs. Psychological pressure of having exess units would be just another wepaon we can use.

Thus it's important that we are not relying on foreign suppliers for our ucavs. And those countries who're part of the supply chain are reliable. imo Azerbaycan, Pakistan, BD, Indonesia fits that description.


I think the carrier from Starcraft is a good depiction of what we can expect
View attachment 63894

Honestly .... Carrier based vessel has it's up and down . But , like before ....my only question is how viable it is when the operation theatre were heavily jammed and render unmanned operation were inoperable ??

Lol the US has more to lose in that bargain. There is an economic and later will be a military fight between the US and China that will decide who will be the top dog. Can the US win that fight by turning Turkiye into an enemy? EU has done nothing against Russia and surely has no appetite to fight China. Once the US loses its number one status there will be a long queue to kick the US in the balls. This is not the 90s when the US reigns supreme, stakes are getting higher and the US has everything to lose.

Things are going in gradual manner . Hence it offers both merit and demerits

Turkish defence industry is working 24/7 in leaving both American and European dependance.

If Turkiye is going to do go with an independant destiny it will not lean on any camp.

I do wish Turkiye joined the Non aligned movement rather than Nato.

Turkiye would have got nuclear weapons by now just like Pakistan and India got it.

As present .... Nato membership is your shileds on inconviniences . You only have to play smarter than the bandits of your so called allies ...

 

[Fatman17]

From AirForces Monthly

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I really wonder why they didn't build a very cost-effective stealth single jet based on the TAI KAAN with a delta canard configuration for absolute agility right from the start instead of the Hürjet.
The Hürjet simply doesn't make sense, if at all then only as a jet trainer, which is its intended and main task, but even then it would simply be too expensive.
As a new light combat aircraft, it is already obsolete from the outset as a GEN 4.5 combat aircraft.
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner and in 7-8 years we will see the first GEN 6 prototypes from the USA, China and Russia.
Then the Hürjets will look even older technologically, as they won't even be able to keep up with the F-16 Block 70, let alone the F-35.
We will definitely not get an F-16 Block 70 or a Eurofighter Block 3/4 to bridge the gap.
Because they know exactly that we will completely dismantle these aircraft, and through partial reverse engineering could have new insights into weapons technology, in the form of the functioning of the newer US AESA & EU AESA radar, soft & hardware, EloKa, Materials & Co.
This would possibly bring Turkey at least 4-5 years further forward in aircraft construction.
The Özgur I and II projects can compensate for this, but at some point the F-16 Block 30, 40 and 50 upgraded to Özgur I & II (Block 70+) will show material fatigue and have to be scrapped.
We have long since ceased to be seen as a partner and ally, if there was ever a phase in which we were seen as such.
We are rivals in all things in their eyes and they don't want to share the cake as the 6th or 7th superpower in the world.
That's why they don't want to deliver anything, everyone knows that.
The TAI KAAN is simply too expensive to build 400-500 units to completely replace the F-16 & F4 Phantom II Terminator to cover their own needs. 150-200 TAI KAANs and 300-400 of the single jet Delta Canard Jet based on the KAAN + different Drones, would be enough to replace the F-16 & F4 Phantoms in the long run. Or you can import the KAI TFX if you are too lazy to build your own single jet stealth fighter.

 

[Nutuk]

@IC3M@N FX

Hürjet as trainer is not outdated at all, on the contrary look what is developed in the US (Boeing - Saab T7 Red Hawk) as future trainer that is going to be used from 2024 on.

Sure who would not be dreaming about being technologically ahead of the US but let us a little bit realistic there, Hurjet is great!

The Özgür aircraft is not receiving structural upgrades (material fatigue!!!) for nothing and extend it’s service life an extra 4000 flight hours

We do not have to build 400 - 500 units of Kaan, neither will our adversaries be able to buy F35's in such high numbers (5th gen planes are simply expensive). Most of the workhorse work will go to drones anyway and there Turkiye is at a very satisfyingly level

And yes you are right, no one want's to share the cake. Nobody is going to give the cake, we have to get it ourselves.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

@IC3M@N FX

Hürjet as trainer is not outdated at all, on the contrary look what is developed in the US (Boeing - Saab T7 Red Hawk) as future trainer that is going to be used from 2024 on.

Sure who would not be dreaming about being technologically ahead of the US but let us a little bit realistic there, Hurjet is great!

The Özgür aircraft do not for nothing receive structural upgrades (material fatigue!!!) and receive an extra life of 4000 flight hours

We do not have to build 400 - 500 units of Kaan, neither will our adversaries be able to buy F35's in such high numbers (5th gen planes are simply expensive). Most of the workhorse work will go to drones anyway and there Turkiye is at a very satisfyingly level

And yes you are right, no one want's to share the cake. Nobody is going to give the cake, we have to get it ourselves.

But here is the crux of the matter, we need at least 100 -150 KAANs and at least
200 -300 fighter aircraft of a smaller type as a single jet configuration that is also GEN 5.
Drones are strategic platforms, you can't win dogfights with them, nor can you react very quickly to circumstances like a human pilot, let alone complex flight maneuvers, just the latency between the pilot giving the commands at the ground station on the joystick and the actual transmission of the signals to the drone is not milliseconds but seconds.
By the time you can react, the enemy has already fired the missiles.
Even if in today's modern air combat operations take place in the BVR.
And even if the developers talk about A.I., these are ultimately just automisms in the software; if situation A happens, react with algorithm B.
These are nothing more than scripts that ultimately run in a series of processes that then branch off depending on the situation.
But independent autonomous thinking, and creativity in a fight, all countries in the world are still at least 100 years away from being able to produce a Terminator.

Türkiye is not Switzerland, where countries such as Austria, Italy and Germany are geographically located around it, where only 40-60 of each country are needed.
Besides Russia, Greece, we also have Iran, Iraq, Syria and all the Arab states, and despite all the similarities such as religion and partly culture, most of these states actually want to see the Turkish state dissolved into fragments.
Turkey is surrounded by potential enemies, and we see for ourselves how these countries easily get Rafaele, F-16 and even Gripen E and the Eurofighter if the money is right.
As a NATO member, Turkey is denied sensitive weapons where even a country like Saudi Arabia receives them.
On the grounds that Turkey has democratic deficits and restrictions on freedom of expression.
As if countries like Saudi Arabia, UAE etc. ever had such things.

 

[Aqerdf]

TurAF's F-4 fleets are empty. F-16s will be there for another 20 years at least i think.

Soo, 150 Kaan ?

 

[Nutuk]

But here is the crux of the matter, we need at least 100 -150 KAANs and at least
200 -300 fighter aircraft of a smaller type as a single jet configuration that is also GEN 5.

According to whom? Did the air force specify such numbers?

Drones are strategic platforms, you can't win dogfights with them, nor can you react very quickly to circumstances like a human pilot, let alone complex flight maneuvers, just the latency between the pilot giving the commands at the ground station on the joystick and the actual transmission of the signals to the drone is not milliseconds but seconds.

When was the last fighter jet downed in a dogfight? Turkiye shot 1 Russian, 2 Syrian jets (none of them in a dogfight). We should realize that warfare has changed, we go to 5th generation and in 5th generation 2 things are very important: 1 Stealth, 2 networked. Drones will be the front fighters with the AI enabled decision making, no pilot can match up in reaction time.

And even if the developers talk about A.I., these are ultimately just automisms in the software; if situation A happens, react with algorithm B.
These are nothing more than scripts that ultimately run in a series of processes that then branch off depending on the situation.

And you think in war situation the same processes and rules will count as in peacetime? It'll be more like shoot first ask later

But independent autonomous thinking, and creativity in a fight, all countries in the world are still at least 100 years away from being able to produce a Terminator.

Terminator is a movie thing, but you'd be surprised how far military already is in AI

As a NATO member, Turkey is denied sensitive weapons where even a country like Saudi Arabia receives them.

NATO is more a client binding organization, and Turkiye is more and more not a client anymore, playing outside the rules and restrictions that NATO (read USA) want's to impose

 

[TheInsider]

TurAF wants to buy 240+ Kaans.

It will take 10 years to reach that amount with a production rate of 2 per month. TAI will increase the production rate if another country makes additional orders. 4 per month is somewhat easy to achieve. It will be difficult to increase the production rate further as TEI will have to deliver 16 engines per month Aselsan 8 Burfis suite per month for a production rate of 8 Kaans per month.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

TurAF wants to buy 240+ Kaans.

Yes and thats low number since Turkiye spent alot of money and years to build its national fighter but still some here thinks 150 KAANs are enough for Turkiye .
For 100 fighters Turkiye never would spent so much for suxh number of fighters , I think 300 KAANS are goos number + 200 heavily modernised f16
500 fighters and 2500 total aircraft + 1000 Male Drones thats what Turkiye needs for airforce . And dont think Turkiye cant buipd them , same was thought for china for its J20 and from west sources China is reaching 180-200 J20 planes production per year surpassing or approching USA production of F35 .So Turkiye aslo can produce 50 Kaans per year

 

[uçuyorum]

TurAF wants to buy 240+ Kaans.

It will take 10 years to reach that amount with a production rate of 2 per month. TAI will increase the production rate if another country makes additional orders. 4 per month is somewhat easy to achieve.

I mean sure they want but operating 240 Kaan and operating 240 F16 are monumentally different. Both regular cost and effort for maintenance etc will make that very difficult

 

[TheInsider]

I mean sure they want but operating 240 Kaan and operating 240 F16 are monumentally different. Both regular cost and effort for maintenance etc will make that very difficult

TurAF will continue to buy Kaan till 2040 and probably even further. F-16s will be retired starting from block 30s. Block 30s won't see 2040.