TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[uçuyorum]

If we make a small number of heavy bombers that could actually be more useful and economical than a large fleet of fighters. Say a single bomber that can like drop dozens of guided munitions in a single sortie and could stay in air for a longer while could prove more optimal. Based on our mission profiles and proximity to operations, fewer planes could then focus on those and fighters can focus on roles only they can fullfil.

 

[Bozan]

US opens F-35 window to Ankara​

Washington proposes Turkey’s conditional return to fighter jet co-production program​

Washington has reopened the window for Ankara’s return to the F-35 co-production program, on the well-known condition that it removes its Russian S-400 missile defense system from Turkey.

US opens F-35 window to Ankara | eKathimerini.com

Washington has reopened the window for Ankara’s return to the F-35 co-production program, on the well-known condition that it removes its Russian S-400 missile defense system from Turkey.

www.ekathimerini.com

Maybe good news. Greece is in panic.

Well if TR is desperate, then Washington can use it to negotiate on behalf of what Washington wants.

Congress can block the delivery at any time, so until that delivery occurs, TR will have to abide by what Washington wants.

Washington is reminding Erdogan

 

[dBSPL]

It is necessary to discuss not the number of aircraft, but the fleet size, organization and combat structure of the air force. It is a fact that the fleet structure has undergone significant changes due to the long delay of the JSF project and some squadrons have been inactivated. Of course, there are other details, especially in relation to the F-4 crash news in past... In the end, as if all these problems were not enough, the F-35 planning had to be completely scrapped.

While the Turkish air force traditionally constitutes the eastern wing of NATO, in terms of national defense, the basic doctrine of the armed forces is based on the ability to sustain an all out war against two countries simultaneously. So yes, we really need a very serious number of combat aircraft, unless we downsize. This is a transitional period in which many political mistakes have been made too and I don't think there is a correct reference to either the past or the future.

If you add the recently inactivated F-4 squadrons to the recent geopolitical developments and risks in the Turkish sphere of influence, I am of the opinion that the Air Force is aiming to have 17-18 or up to 20 combatant (+ combat reconnaissance) squadrons, and even more when indigenous platforms enter mass production. Traditionally, we tend to assume the size of combat squadrons in the Turkish Air Force to be around 20 aircraft kept in combat readiness, but in many cases it can be higher than that. These two basic assuming can also give an approximate, rough idea about potential number of platforms.

I should also add as a note that a new era is about to begin in Turkish aviation. Naval combat aviation. I think everyone agrees that this tendency of the Navy is very obvious. In the next 20 years, this breakthrough on Navy may take the balance-changing effect of national combatant platforms to another level.

 

[Nutuk]

IMO Turkiye should stay far away from F35 as the aircraft is the total opposite of what we want: independence

Even with F16 we'll stay partly dependent on the USA till the 2050ties, with F35 that will become 2080.


If we want quality and quantity we need our own fighter jet not purchased ones, example is there with drones

 

[B_A]

400?



Do not forget that Turkey is working on network-centric warfare, and fighter jets are not the only asset. We are talking about drones of various types ranging from TB-3, ANKA-1/3-4, and Kizilelma that work jointly with the future kAAN. Turkey is operating almost 250 F-16s, and many of them will perhaps be way too old to operate by 2030-2035 ( not sure about the timeframe) which means that the KAAN will be the backbone of the Air force. Even 500, 5-generation fighter jets is a massive number that neither China or Russia has accomplished so far.

Taiwanese had 130 F-16+60 Mirage 2000+130 F-CK-1+some F-5 + 66 F16V(ordered)=400 JET


Chinese had 1400+ 4-generation fighter jets ,their 5-generation fighters just face some problem,finallt they will have 800+5-generation fighters

 

[B_A]

You are probably aware that 800 combat jets are not something Turkiye, or any European country, could actually sustain long term.

Even Taiwanese can sustain 300+ Jets at long term.Korean is 400+

Republic of Korea Air Force - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In korean and japanese case they had much expensive F-15s

 

[infrared]

"Even Taiwan" bro the currently decreasing gdp difference is only 30 percent.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Even Taiwanese can sustain 300+ Jets at long term.Korean is 400+

Republic of Korea Air Force - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In korean and japanese case they had much expensive F-15s

Bro Taiwan has China as an immediate danger threat, with more than 1000+ fighter planes as opponents. They generate their income from the chip industry, especially through TSMC.
USA gives them very high discounts, and help them underhand with maintenance & support, almost the whole electronics world is produced there chip wise.
If Taiwan falls to China, the entire chip industry in the USA & the world will fall into China's hands.
South Korea's opponent is North Korea, which, together with China, also has nuclear weapons. In contrast to Russia, which has the good sense not to use these weapons even in times of war.
North Korea has no inhibitions about using them as a first strike if it were to attack South Korea.
Even the Russians have the fear of God and morals, which the Chinese and North Koreans do not have.
For them, a human life is worth nothing, you only have to see how they treat their own people and now transfer this to foreign people, God save the country that would be attacked by the two countries, the previous war criminals in the world would look more like a joke then.

The location of Turkey with Greece, Russia & Iran as opponents is a joke in comparison.
Iran & Russia dare not attack a NATO country, it would be their death sentence.
That leaves only Greece....and they simply don't have the capacity to keep up in the long term.
The USA won't sponsor them indefinitely just because they get anxiety attacks

 

[B_A]

"Even Taiwan" bro the currently decreasing gdp difference is only 30 percent.

Everyone know our economy is too bad these years and taiwanese were in their best time.In 2013 gdp difference was 45 percent and the projected GDP difference will be 40 percent in 2028

Taiwanese had only less than 1/4 population of us and very aged.We will have at least 2 times GDP much than taiwanese 10 years later.

Also I think in the future Turkish air force will united with Azerbaycan or other Turkic countries to become the Air Force of Turkic Union.

Bro Taiwan has China as an immediate danger threat, with more than 1000+ fighter planes as opponents. They generate their income from the chip industry, especially through TSMC.
USA gives them very high discounts, and help them underhand with maintenance & support, almost the whole electronics world is produced there chip wise.
If Taiwan falls to China, the entire chip industry in the USA & the world will fall into China's hands.
South Korea's opponent is North Korea, which, together with China, also has nuclear weapons. In contrast to Russia, which has the good sense not to use these weapons even in times of war.
North Korea has no inhibitions about using them as a first strike if it were to attack South Korea.
Even the Russians have the fear of God and morals, which the Chinese and North Koreans do not have.
For them, a human life is worth nothing, you only have to see how they treat their own people and now transfer this to foreign people, God save the country that would be attacked by the two countries, the previous war criminals in the world would look more like a joke then.

The location of Turkey with Greece, Russia & Iran as opponents is a joke in comparison.
Iran & Russia dare not attack a NATO country, it would be their death sentence.
That leaves only Greece....and they simply don't have the capacity to keep up in the long term.
The USA won't sponsor them indefinitely just because they get anxiety attacks

Yes

Anyway that depend on our economy,If we have a GDP per capita much than 28000USD within 10 years we can have 800 JETs,If only less than 18000 we can only about 300-400.

 

[dBSPL]

@IC3M@N FX bro, the examples of Taiwan and Korea are closer to the examples of the Turkish air force during the cold war. I mean, both the NATO nuclear arsenal was deployed in TR and special assistance was provided by the US in terms of technical capabilities such as high-altitude long-range fighter jets that could intercept bombers, etc. during the years when Soviet harassment increased from time to time. Of course, these were not gratuitous and what they brought or took away is a separate discussion.

Contrary to the counter-examples you gave, today Turkiye's threat perception is not uni-axial. It is more multifaceted than ever. This is also related to Turkiye's need to maintain sufficient hard power to prioritize its interests and, in the broader scheme of things, to build its own center of power. Without moving from a position of contested equilibrium to kind of absolute imposed dominance, you can maintain your foreign policy interests within certain limits. To be sure of this, one only needs to look at our allies on paper. Our on paper allies are a source of worry for friends and confidence for enemies.

In conclusion, I agree with the view that it is time for both air power and naval power to spread their wings. We already have this technically, and in terms of staff capabilities, but now we need to reinforce it quantitatively. We are a Army Country, throughout history. Everytime we embrace this reality, has always carried this country forward. I am not talking about being an aggressive country waging wars left and right. It is to be a country that relies more on hard power in the foreign policy arena. The answer to the question of whether the country's economy can carry this size lies in this; Turkish army can carry the Turkish economy too.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

No, no he isn't, a lot of people unfortunately live in a Red Alert 2 kind of reality.

Oh , No no isnt ,, while u and some others that want Turkiye to buy 4 Tf 2000or 4 I class that are enough(according to some) and 100 Kaans fighters are so glad with 23 billion to give USA for 40 f16 thats his time is over (time for 5gen fighters)
and 79 upgrades of older f16 .
And USA with that money to give free weapons to greece / israel / ukraine zionism regimes .
First Turkiye should ask tongive back money that we sent for f35 , thats Turkish peoples money .
Second no weapon from USA or others should be bought while out industry is building our own weapons.
Turkiye should buy another S400 sytem long range and show middle finger to USA . If Turkiye do that order 23 billion it will be huge mistake that people never forget and forgive

 

[boredaf]

Oh , No no isnt ,, while u and some others that want Turkiye to buy 4 Tf 2000or 4 I class that are enough(according to some) and 100 Kaans fighters are so glad with 23 billion to give USA for 40 f16 thats his time is over (time for 5gen fighters)
and 79 upgrades of older f16 .
And USA with that money to give free weapons to greece / israel / ukraine zionism regimes .
First Turkiye should ask tongive back money that we sent for f35 , thats Turkish peoples money .
Second no weapon from USA or others should be bought while out industry is building our own weapons.
Turkiye should buy another S400 sytem long range and show middle finger to USA . If Turkiye do that order 23 billion it will be huge mistake that people never forget and forgive

You are so misinformed and/or ignorant that you truly do not deserve a response or any kind of reaction other than this one.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

Those numbers include every single aircraft in service, starting from ab initio trainers to SAR helos, transports, other assets etc. its not just fighters.

Again, 800 fighters are just fantasy numbers nowadays. It's not 1960s anymore.

Of course, that's unless you want to go fight Greek Rafales with SF 260 trainer. Have fun with that

Thats only airforce branch and its aircrafts . Every single aircraft of whole (Turkiye military) is 1100+ aircrafts . Only airforce has some 600 if i am correct thats why is not in that top 10

 

[I_Love_F16]

Turkiye should buy another S400 sytem long range and show middle finger to USA

Yeah, we should buy another S400 system and leave it in a hangar like the first one.

 

[Spitfire9]

I have a question:

Let's say the procurement budget of TurAF for the next 20 years is $X Billion dollars. Out of this:

$ 20 billion goes to F-16V
$ 7-10 billion for Eurofighters
$ 7-10 billion for F-35s

How much will be left to complete the development of TFX and its engine after you have taken out some 40 billion dollars from your procurement budget and spent it on not one but 3 different combat aircraft?

Even if you could somehow do all of this, how many TFX are you gonna be able to actually procure with whatever is left?

At this point, I'm starting to believe that buying anything other than F-16 kits creates an unacceptable financial risk for the TFX.

Maybe that is the intent here.

Is the block on EF supply being lifted? I reckon that Turkiye should establish the answer.

If EF supply to Turkiye can be unblocked, what about just buying the F-16 kits and Eurofighters? I don't recall which Eurofighter partner country is allocated marketing to Turkiye. If it is the UK, UK assembly work is drying up. I think that there are only about 10 aircraft left to assemble. Very different to the F-16 assembly line backlog.

 

[Sanchez]

I don't recall which Eurofighter partner country is allocated marketing to Turkiye.

It used to be Italy 15 years ago. Probably would be UK now.

Is the block on EF supply being lifted?

As far as we know, Turkey hasn't yet officially requested to by EF2000, so there's no actual blockage, just that Germany was being "unhelpful".

 

[Spitfire9]

It used to be Italy 15 years ago. Probably would be UK now.


As far as we know, Turkey hasn't yet officially requested to by EF2000, so there's no actual blockage, just that Germany was being "unhelpful".

It could be useful to find out for sure if Eurofighter can be supplied. If so

- LM does not have a potential captive customer (so cannot charge highest price)
- political risk of future supply cuts is altered (possibly lower than with US)
- Eurofighter delivery may be much faster than F-16 delivery

 

[Saithan]

TuAF fleet of jets are old. An considering we’re 79 of them needs an upgrade kit I’d say their usefulness is not very high. Those that are in the Özgür program are similar.

So how many F-16 do we actually have that we’re happy with ?

Turkey - Turk Hava Kuvvetleri - Turkish Air Force - TuAF - F-16.net

Learn about Turkey — Turk Hava Kuvvetleri - Turkish Air Force - TuAF. Explore this F-16 operator’s history, aircraft, and contributions to their air force on F-16.net.

www.f-16.net

240 of the F16 are from mid-late 90’s

which means they’re 25 years old or more. That doesn’t leave us much.

while the numbers I gave may have been exaggerated, if you write of the old jets the numbers come down.

The point is to continue building jet forever. You can always sell them or station them elsewhere. Friendly Nations needing a hand in patrol duty etc.

There are a lot of options, if we’re willing to take the risk.

 

[DBdev]

Yeah, we should buy another S400 system and leave it in a hangar like the first one.

Turkish s400 is active and protecting the Turkish capital against nuclear ballistic missiles, stealth air planes, cruise missiles with nukes that can come when we all are sleeping. It is located in Mürted airport and it is very much active all the time. There are pictures of the radar spinning next to barracks in the airport. It is not 100% but definitely better than nothing or having some fully American controlled F35s with fake Turkish flag plastered over it.

Istanbul, other cities are still all open to nuclear attacks. Range:

Turkey’s S-400 “Growler” Goes Operational Near Ankara - T-Intelligence

Turkey’s newly acquired S-400 air defense system (NATO Reporting name SA-21 Growler) is now operational at Mürted Akinci airfield, an Israeli geospatial company claims. Satellite imagery, which was shared by ImageSatIntel (iSi) on Twitter, shows the S-400 battery components in an operational...

t-intell.com

 

[_Mu_]

Europe: selected tactical combat aircraft, 2022
Source: THE MILITARY BALANCE 2023