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Saithan

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I disagree, it all boils down to what armament Hürjet can have and the max load it can carry.

It annoys me greatly that there aren't any news about Hürjets payload and wiki and it's source reference is the closest we get.

Light Combat AircraftVersion for close air support and armed air policing roles. The combat variant will carry locally produced air-to-air missiles and air-to-ground bombs.[11][12]

if it can carry 2x Air-to-Ground bombs and have short range A2A missiles at the same time it's good enough to take over some of the work from F-16.
 

Knowledgeseeker

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Even Taiwanese had 400+ fighter jets.We have to have 2times of them.

400?

Because of our expansion in Africa, Caucasia, Balkan and ME, we need to double current fighter jet fleet.

Do not forget that Turkey is working on network-centric warfare, and fighter jets are not the only asset. We are talking about drones of various types ranging from TB-3, ANKA-1/3-4, and Kizilelma that work jointly with the future kAAN. Turkey is operating almost 250 F-16s, and many of them will perhaps be way too old to operate by 2030-2035 ( not sure about the timeframe) which means that the KAAN will be the backbone of the Air force. Even 500, 5-generation fighter jets is a massive number that neither China or Russia has accomplished so far.
 

Windchime

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Because Hürjets are not capable of replacing or fighting F-16's, I would be in favor of producing 60 of them, with the option of 20 more.
Otherwise it should only serve as an export aircraft for countries in Asia & Africa.
For Turkey, 40 units are sufficient as a trainer variant for training, and 40 units for counter-terrorism and patrols together with Hürkus & various MALE drones against terrorism & piracy + Monitoring the turkish Aerospace.

Light GEN 4+ fighters like Hürjet as a new development is simply a dead end, 20-30 years ago it would have made sense, and we would now have Hürjet Block 50/60 or Hürjet II which could have the performance profile of an F-16. But they don't stand a chance against powerful GEN 4+ fighters like the F-16 Block 50/70, Eurofighter or Rafaele.
Hürjet is a near earth light fighter, even if someone argues by BVR capabilities and AESA radar and electronic warfare it could make up for a lot, I say it doesn't matter in real combat, it would always be the underdog aircraft.
The BVR capabilities and AESA radar and electronic warfare, can also fulfill a conventional fighter jet drone without endangering the life of the pilot.
Our rival countries get or have the best of GEN 4+ and GEN 5 like F-35 on the market, so Hürjet is simply no longer of any use.

I maintain that KAAN and F-16, Kizilelma & Anka 3 are or will be the workhorses of the Turkish armed forces in war operations.
For everything else, the Hürjet/Hürkus and drones like Akinci, Aksungur and TB3 are sufficient.
Why? Firstly, considering the fleet size of THK and its planned expansion, it would need a much larger advanced trainer and LIFT fleet. They could opt to just continue using the planned twin-seater variant of Kaan as a conversion trainer/fighter trainer, but that's a very expensive and inefficient option.

Also, there's always the market niche for a fighter in Hurjet-sized segment, and here, absolute cost as well as cost-performance factor is the king. Until now, FA-50 and M-346FA have been the two of the few viable options, alongside Chinese JF-17 and L-15, but Chinese products cater to a slightly different userbase, although that doesn't mean they don't overlap. Hurjet could be an attractive option if it could A: keep the cost as low as the competition (not hard, tbh), B: offer as much option in procurement diversity and operational flexibility C: offer as attractive of a "package" compared to Korea, Italy and China (the biggest problem for Turkiye).

"A" would be easy, as long as they can keep commonalities reasonably high. For instance, current T-50, TA-50 and FA-50 are all common airframes. So as long as THK place a big enough order for the trainer and keeps the line busy, it would have cost competitiveness.

"C" is hard due to outright size of Turkish economy. For instance If there's a big enough procurement, it would be harder for the Turkish gov. to bill the offset deals or soft loans compared to the other countries. This is imo one of the biggest problems.

Another problem is that the market turning into a red ocean real quick. In the 2000s, FA-50 and Hawk 200 held a duopoly in this segment. Now even the US is planning to join the frey with "F-7" based on T-7A.
 
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what

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True. But the plan was for F-35s to replace F-4s and for TF-X to replace F-16s. Leaving a fleet of only F-35 + TFX.

Now you are planning to go for F-16Vs, Eurofighters, F-35s, TFX. Also the Ozgur, Hurjet, Kizilelma and Anka-3.

This is definitely going to cause a massive financial crisis in the TF-X and TF35K programs.

We're probably talking about a low number of Eurofighters and the F16 order. F35 is off the table as far as anyone can tell. I think we would have easily spent at least 15-25 bln € on the F35s alone. So plenty of budget to relocate to other projects.

Özgür and Hürjet are older projects too. So were definitely budgeted in. Not sure about the drone programs.

I think the budget is not the issue, the issue is that no one is selling us their toys at the moment.
 

Iskander

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IMHO you do overestimate the dogfight capability of a fighter jet with a single F404 engine. A F-16 has like 11.000 lb more thrust (i think).



Yes, it will be good enough to bomb targets, which are only protected by SHORAD's.
But i think Hürjet is suboptimal for BVR, despite AESA.
Türkiye should heavily invest in ANKA-3, because the twin engine version with MURAD and maybe later with BURFIS along with GÖKHAN will be a different kind of a beast for BVR engagements.
I really wish to see the faces of Türkiye's adversaries, when ANKA-3 test fires the first time a BVR missile from its IWB.
As you probably remember, Anka3 appeared completely unexpectedly. In my opinion, it would be great to have a new Anka with a carrying capacity of several tons, with parameters several times higher than the current one. I imagine Temel Kotil with his eternal smile, like a wizard pulling a new Anka out of a hat. For some reason he is not visible. He must be working some magic again
 
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what

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TuAF needs to have at least 800-1000 combat jets (UAVs etc. not included), imo. Doesn't matter if their life expectancy can be extended or not. We should always ensure to have production lines filled with our orders.

Failing to ensure that is not an option.

That said, as I said previously I still don't understand why we're not ordering 100 Hurjet, and I consider the failure to do so as treason.


We have yet to see a render of the militarized Hürjet. Would love to see 80-100 of these.

Imagine:
80 Hürjet
100+ KAAN
same number of Anka 3s
50-60 Kizilelma
+ existing F16 fleet
 

Quasar 

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Until the arrival of KAAN, ÖZGÜR modernized F 16s will be the most advanced fighter we will have with our national weapons and systems.

the deal with US is quantitative for me - since we seem to be unable to use our national weapons on Vipers yet big amounts of missiles in the deal is understandable.

The balance between already signed ÖZGÜR project and the deal with US is vital...we will wait and see
 

Fuzuli NL

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True. But the plan was for F-35s to replace F-4s and for TF-X to replace F-16s. Leaving a fleet of only F-35 + TFX.

Now you are planning to go for F-16Vs, Eurofighters, F-35s, TFX. Also the Ozgur, Hurjet, Kizilelma and Anka-3.

This is definitely going to cause a massive financial crisis in the TF-X and TF35K programs.
Time/Delivery
 
S

Scott Summers

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US opens F-35 window to Ankara​

Washington proposes Turkey’s conditional return to fighter jet co-production program​

US opens F-35 window to Ankara


Washington has reopened the window for Ankara’s return to the F-35 co-production program, on the well-known condition that it removes its Russian S-400 missile defense system from Turkey.



Maybe good news. Greece is in panic.
 

boredaf

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While talking about a light attack variant of Hürjet, we should also keep in mind that not only we don't have a domestic engine for it, we don't even have a domestic engine project in that class. TF10000 wouldn't be enough, unless 2 of them were to be used but that would mean designing Hürjet from scratch, and TF35000 would be too much.
 

Windchime

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TuAF needs to have at least 800-1000 combat jets (UAVs etc. not included), imo. Doesn't matter if their life expectancy can be extended or not. We should always ensure to have production lines filled with our orders
You are probably aware that 800 combat jets are not something Turkiye, or any European country, could actually sustain long term.
 

Windchime

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We have yet to see a render of the militarized Hürjet. Would love to see 80-100 of these.

Imagine:
80 Hürjet
100+ KAAN
same number of Anka 3s
50-60 Kizilelma
+ existing F16 fleet
Current trend for MUMT seems to be 2 UCAVs to one fighter. Considering that some of the ANKA-3s would also be able to be operated from ground as AI and OCA asset, this does seem like a sweet spot. Had Turkiye been subject to stronger adversary airpower, more MIUS would've been required but under current circumstances, TISU seems like a bigger priority.
 

Windchime

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No, no he isn't, a lot of people unfortunately live in a Red Alert 2 kind of reality.
Well, then it is what it is. Though they better understand that THK is already one of the biggest AF in the whole of Europe.
 

uçuyorum

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No, no he isn't, a lot of people unfortunately live in a Red Alert 2 kind of reality.
We calculate price of concert ticket and number of tickets to find how much it costs randomly but don't calculate how much such things cost. Say we buy 1000 f16 that's like 300 billion usd over like 20 years or so to buy and operate
 
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Scott Summers

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You are probably aware that 800 combat jets are not something Turkiye, or any European country, could actually sustain long term.

Top 10 Largest Air Forces in the World (by number of Military Aircraft) - Flight International 2022:​


CountryAir Force
United States5,213
Russia3,864
China1,992
India1,728
Egypt1,069
North Korea947
South Korea905
Pakistan820
Japan749
Saudi Arabia690


It's a scandal that Türkiye and Germany are not even in the Top 10.

Look at those countries Egypt, North Korea, SA etc.

Especially with our TAF and our war history (same for Germany and their Luftstreitkräfte and Luftwaffe).
 

Windchime

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Top 10 Largest Air Forces in the World (by number of Military Aircraft) - Flight International 2022:​


CountryAir Force
United States5,213
Russia3,864
China1,992
India1,728
Egypt1,069
North Korea947
South Korea905
Pakistan820
Japan749
Saudi Arabia690
Those numbers include every single aircraft in service, starting from ab initio trainers to SAR helos, transports, other assets etc. its not just fighters.

Again, 800 fighters are just fantasy numbers nowadays. It's not 1960s anymore.

Of course, that's unless you want to go fight Greek Rafales with SF 260 trainer. Have fun with that
 

boredaf

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Well, then it is what it is. Though they better understand that THK is already one of the biggest AF in the whole of Europe.
Yeah, and best way to go would be to focus on TF-X and drones, Anka-3 and KE, even then, nowhere close to an absurd number like that. Imo, KE will be more air superiority focused, as its supposed to be more agile with its body, while Anka-3 will be mainly used for SEAD-DEAD mission, but we'll see.
 

Khagan1923

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Throw S400 into the sea were that trash belongs.

Convert the 40 F-16V order into 42 F-35A and 12-16 F-35B

Demand the 6 F-35A being stored are handed over immediately.

Have nice Air Force towards the mid 30s consisting of

48 F-35A
164 F-16 Özgür I-II
79 F-16V Block 70
TF Kaan Block 1 ~20-40
Maybe Hürjet LF ~20-30

as well as the Navy having 12-16 F-35B on Anadolu.

If B is no go than order ~60 F-35A.

my two cents. You are bound to the US either way. If I pay 20 Billion I would rather have a cutting edge jet instead of just the next best thing. Also the tears of certain people would be nice to see.

Some people need to take their heads out of the sand and see the reality we are in. Saying things like F-35 will keep us bound to the US aren't really good arguments when TF Kaan is using americans engines, as well as Hürjet, or you buying new F-16 from the same Americans. Or upgrading your existing fleet with their packages.

The S400 is useless and has no use. Get rid of it.
 

boredaf

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We calculate price of concert ticket and number of tickets to find how much it costs randomly but don't calculate how much such things cost. Say we buy 1000 f16 that's like 300 billion usd over like 20 years or so to buy and operate
Not to mention, we are not going to find and train that many pilots. Plan should be a manageable number of jets supplemented by Anka-3 and KE.
 
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