TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[TR_123456]

Jets like F16 will be always useful, lower cost, simpler to maintain and higher operational availability. Which countries along our southern / eastern border are likely to get capabilities that will threaten our f16s in next 20 years? And if they do how long will they last before our stealth planes demolish them and we can keep using f16

Think bigger,none of our neighbours can threaten us,even without the F-16's.

 

[Pokemonte13]

I am still a fan of developing the Hürjet as Hürjet II with 2 GE-404s, with stealth features and internal weapons bay for both land and naval as a multirole fighter for the actual replacement for the F-16. Turkey needs at least 2 different fighters, one a multirole air superiority fighter, and one a multirole workhorse with low maintenance and operating costs.
I doubt that we will produce and use more than 150-200 TAI KAAN for our own needs, the long-term maintenance and operating costs would simply be too high.
The other countries are already moving towards GEN 6 as an air superiority fighter from 2035-2040.

2040:

150 TAI KAAN +50 optional
40 Eurofighter Tranche 4 +20 Tranche 5 optional
300 Hürjet II Stealth +100 optional
150 F-16 Özgür II/F-16 Block 70
100 Anka 3
100 Kizilelma
500+ Akinci, TB2/TB2 AI, TB3, Anka S and Aksungur drones.

That should totally deter any country even Israel from doing something really stupid.

150 Kaan seems likely
No more than 40 Eurofighters as they are meant as stopgaps
Hürjet numbers will not be more than 100-150 as they will be used as trainers and light attack aircraft by navy and 2 engine version would take effort from Kaan away
F16 lineup looks good as well as the rest airforce should have between 350-400 fighters in the future

 

[boredaf]

You are probably right, but the export of this aircraft alone will bring in a lot of money.
TAI KAAN probably costs between 90-120 million USD as a sales price.
The African and South American and partly Central Asian countries simply cannot afford a modern stealth aircraft of this price category, at least not in such large numbers.
But they also don't want to buy crap from Russia and China where they then have more problems than it can solve.
The US & European models, whether GEN 4.5+ or GEN 5, are either extremely expensive or very expensive and subject to many restrictions.
This is where the hypothetical Hürjet II comes into play with 2 GE 404 engines and stealth design + internal weapons bay. It would be like an F-18 Super Hornet with stealth design, the cost would probably be around 50-70 million USD (Sweetspot) and you would hit the market exactly what the masses want.
A stealth fighter that is cheap and efficient and suitable for both land and sea.

In principle, what Turkey is doing with drones is attacking the middle and lower price segments. In this case, American/European quality with an almost Chinese price, which is exactly how the masses want their fighter aircraft.

Why make "Hürjet II" with an American engine with all those design changes and waste money on something we might not even be able to export in the first place? There are already noises over US vetoing Gripen sale to Colombia. And you want to pour money and designing a jet from scratch that would have nothing to do with Hürjet and base it on GE engines? I really don't understand this love for Hürjet, just let it be as it is, why spend time and money trying to upgrade it over some imaginary export potential?

If it becomes really necessary to make another jet we'd be far better off basing it on Kaan's design but use 1 TF3XK and make it smaller.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

No, you've got it wrong, the Hürjet II with 2 GE-404 US engine versions would be for domestic use for the time being, and an improved version could then be brought out as an engine for export. This is also the case with the TAI KAAN.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

You know when we have 250-300 KAAN's the F-16's will be obsolete,right?
No matter how much you modernise them

modern F16 can perform thwir duty well until 2060 , While KAAN will just perform airsuperiority airspace guarding and Attack when other top opponent countries are (Like libya with egypt & UAE ) F16 duty will be to bomb low danger areas like pkk pyd or U want KAAN to drop bombs on Shoeless ypg ??
So we need top notch 300 KAANs
and 1 engine cheaper aircraft like f16 . Drones will aslo play a role but cant replace manned aircrafts since terrorists nowdays using deep bunkers underground and 1+ ton bombs needed .

 

[Zoth]

Spending money on 4 gen aircraft when we are building steath ones is very bit very STUPID

This is a very strong take, meanwhile USA is investing or thinking to invest into a stealthy light fighter concept. 250 300 aircrafts solely can't be a backbone of our airforce, maintaining and repairing those very advanced jets will be so costly.

A more stealthy version of Hurjet is quite possible to achieve, call it Hurjet 2, Hurjet-S or whatever.

‘Light Fighter’ Concept Emerges During US Air Force Chief’s Speech at UK's Air and Space Power Association Amid NGAD’s Uncertain Future

Allvin unveiled what the Royal Aeronautical Society has later defined as a ‘notional Light Fighter concept’ while calling for a shift of the next

theaviationist.com

 

[BalkanTurk90]

This is a very strong take, meanwhile USA is investing or thinking to invest into a stealthy light fighter concept. 250 300 aircrafts solely can't be a backbone of our airforce, maintaining and repairing those very advanced jets will be so costly.

A more stealthy version of Hurjet is quite possible to achieve, call it Hurjet 2, Hurjet-S or whatever.

‘Light Fighter’ Concept Emerges During US Air Force Chief’s Speech at UK's Air and Space Power Association Amid NGAD’s Uncertain Future

Allvin unveiled what the Royal Aeronautical Society has later defined as a ‘notional Light Fighter concept’ while calling for a shift of the next

theaviationist.com

Yes will be very costly but entering the war without top airforce will be more costly and how other poorer and smaller countries maintain large airforce ?? !Saudis , israel, egypt , Even Pakistan has larger airforce fighters fleet .
We nowday have 1.5 trillion GDP economy . While if everythink goes as planned by 2035 we will be aslo heavy indusry producers and energy self depedent in oil & gas .
If we achieve those economy will be easy 3+ trillion

 

[boredaf]

No, you've got it wrong, the Hürjet II with 2 GE-404 US engine versions would be for domestic use for the time being, and an improved version could then be brought out as an engine for export. This is also the case with the TAI KAAN.

You're missing the point mate. They might give us the engine for the trainer, but there is no guarantee that they are going to give it for light attack version, or, won't change their minds later on. And there is certainly no guarantee that they are not going to block the export of any plane with their engine on in the future. I already gave you an example, there have been rumours about a Gripen deal being blocked, that could easily be our future.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Reading through the various posts here, it seems that most are looking at Turkish Airforce’s future development picture, through 4th generation air warfare glasses.
We are building a very potent and a multi purpose 5th generation aircraft. Although originally it was envisaged to replace our interceptor F16s, they are now a multi purpose aircraft. Once operational and in right quantities with indigenous engines and BURFIS, they will be far ahead of any aircraft in the region, even Israel’s F35s.
They can eradicate any airforce and AD systems in the area, clearing the skies for our unmanned stealth jets to do as they please together with the slower UCAVs.

Why send a boy to do a man’s job. Sending F16s to face other f16s and SU35s and Rafales is the wrong thing to do.
Once we have 300 KAANs, everything else, including f16V70 and Typhoons, become obsolete. OK! Until they become totally obsolete, they may be used to fill any gaps in the inventory. But in a next generation aircraft warfare scenario, 4th generation planes don’t really have any place.

 

[Turkic]

I doubt that we will produce and use more than 150-200 TAI KAAN for our own needs, the long-term maintenance and operating costs would simply be too high.

The thing is our defence budget is 3 times of what it was 2 years ago. Where do you think all these money will go ? And it should increase more to catch rising gdp because our new earthshaker wants a defence budget of 5% of gdp. We won't do everything Trump says but it should increase anyways to catch NATO 2% of gdp goal if our gdp keeps rising. We can surely afford their costs.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

The thing is our defence budget is 3 times of what it was 2 years ago. Where do you think all these money will go ? And it should increase more to catch rising gdp because our new earthshaker wants a defence budget of 5% of gdp. We won't do everything Trump says but it should increase anyways to catch NATO 2% of gdp goal if our gdp keeps rising. We can surely afford their costs.

2% is pathetic anyway. Crank that sucka up to 5%, imagine only investing 2% of your GDP for your countries safety...

 

[boredaf]

Why send a boy to do a man’s job. Sending F16s to face other f16s and SU35s and Rafales is the wrong thing to do.
Once we have 300 KAANs, everything else, including f16V70 and Typhoons, become obsolete. OK! Until they become totally obsolete, they may be used to fill any gaps in the inventory. But in a next generation aircraft warfare scenario, 4th generation planes don’t really have any place.

5th gen planes are expensive to fly and maintain, not to mention produce, and Kaan won't be any different. While I agree with you that once we have Kaan, it should (and all likelihood will) counter any threat we face from other jets, there are many other tasks that we may want a jet doing instead of a drone yet still wouldn't really need a 5th gen plane. They'll be here to stay for quite a while imo, just as F-4s have for so long.

2% is pathetic anyway. Crank that sucka up to 5%, imagine only investing 2% of your GDP for your countries safety...

I don't think you realise what you're asking for here. 5% is an insanely high number that not even US itself kept to, even all through the Cold War. That is just Trump's fuck off number because he knows nobody can just spend that much money on defence, not even US, without rest of their social spending going into cardiac arrest and risking their whole economy.

 

[TR_123456]

2% is pathetic anyway. Crank that sucka up to 5%, imagine only investing 2% of your GDP for your countries safety...

No its not,depends on the country.
Turkish 2% is 10% in any Western European country.
It is about the worth of the 2%.
Why do you think they never talk about NATO's second biggest Armed Forces when talking about the 2% demand?
We produce,operate,maintain cheaper then all other NATO countries.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

No its not,depends on the country.
Turkish 2% is 10% in any Western European country.
It is about the worth of the 2%.
Why do you think they never talk about NATO's second biggest Armed Forces when talking about the 2% demand?
We produce,operate,maintain cheaper then all other NATO countries.

I know that 2% in Türkiye gets you a lot more than in western european countries. But western european countries don't have terrorist and crazy fucks as neighbours, that all hate your guts and on top of it we have similar people inside the Country.

So. Turkish 2% or not is not enough. Turkish 5%, that's what we need. How many Korkuts do we have again? And that is just one example of a thousand+

 

[Huelague]

Once operational and in right quantities with indigenous engines and BURFIS, they will be far ahead of any aircraft in the region, even Israel’s F35s.

Can you elaborate in which way and parameters please?

 

[Yasar_TR]

Can you elaborate in which way and parameters please?

BÜRFİS (Bütünleşik RF Sistemi) (Integrated RF system) is a group and sets of radars and sensors that work together as one unit made out of over 2000 GaN based Aesa radar modules that are all around KAAN’s body. This gives KAAN an unprecedented level of situational awareness. With BURFIS It will also have a complement of sensor suites, like EOTS, IRST, DAS and MWS. In addition to it’s Aesa radar’s functions, also included are the electronic warfare capabilities such as wideband spectrum monitoring, directional jamming, and synthetic-aperture radar (SAR) imaging modes, including ISAR, dot-SAR, and strip-SAR. The system also integrates cognitive operational mechanisms and neural network-based decision support systems with extensive use of AI based technologies. Thus with such sensor fusion and autonomy and Improved data-link capabilities for network-enabled warfare, KAAN will be a most formidable fighting machine.
No 5th generation jet currently has anything close to this capability.

Add to all the above, the indigenously manufactured weapon systems whose details are not known to our adversaries , like ramjet powered BVR a2a missile Gökhan and air to ground precision strike missiles like Akbaba and SOM-J, etc ; Then you have a true winner in your hand.

A KAAN in it’s latest guise with TF36000 turbofan engines, should be able to supercruise in excess of 1.5 Mach and hit 2 Mach top speed (something f35 can’t do) .

F35 currently uses a relatively inferior GaAs based 1600 module Aesa Radar. There is a GaN based new radar in the pipeline for F35. But we don’t know when it will be available.

KAAN, even with it’s f110 engines, can give a run for F35’s money.

KAAN is a souped up f35 in an F22 body. Once it has it’s indigenous engines, it will be a monster of a plane. With the radar and sensors it has on board, no planes owned by any country in our region can outmatch it.

 

[Huelague]

BÜRFİS (Bütünleşik RF Sistemi) (Integrated RF system) is a group and sets of radars and sensors that work together as one unit made out of over 2000 GaN based Aesa radar modules that are all around KAAN’s body. This gives KAAN an unprecedented level of situational awareness. With BURFIS It will also have a complement of sensor suites, like EOTS, IRST, DAS and MWS. In addition to it’s Aesa radar’s functions, also included are the electronic warfare capabilities such as wideband spectrum monitoring, directional jamming, and synthetic-aperture radar (SAR) imaging modes, including ISAR, dot-SAR, and strip-SAR. The system also integrates cognitive operational mechanisms and neural network-based decision support systems with extensive use of AI based technologies. Thus with such sensor fusion and autonomy and Improved data-link capabilities for network-enabled warfare, KAAN will be a most formidable fighting machine.
No 5th generation jet currently has anything close to this capability.

Add to all the above, the indigenously manufactured weapon systems whose details are not known to our adversaries , like ramjet powered BVR a2a missile Gökhan and air to ground precision strike missiles like Akbaba and SOM-J, etc ; Then you have a true winner in your hand.

A KAAN in it’s latest guise with TF36000 turbofan engines, should be able to supercruise in excess of 1.5 Mach and hit 2 Mach top speed (something f35 can’t do) .

F35 currently uses a relatively inferior GaAs based 1600 module Aesa Radar. There is a GaN based new radar in the pipeline for F35. But we don’t know when it will be available.

KAAN, even with it’s f110 engines, can give a run for F35’s money.

KAAN is a souped up f35 in an F22 body. Once it has it’s indigenous engines, it will be a monster of a plane. With the radar and sensors it has on board, no planes owned by any country in our region can outmatch it.

Thanks for answering, bro.
RCS of ~0.1m, is that still right for Kaan?

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Hopefully because we will need this power from 2028/29 with F-110 engines and from 2031/32 with the TEI engine, Israel has already received an urgent recommendation from the Nagel Commission that Turkey is the new Iran in their eyes.

The Greeks are largely partially isolated in the EU, they will certainly sooner or later seek deeper cooperation with Israel/Armenia in security, military and political terms.

That is why the pressure for peace and the disarmament of the PKK, Turkey cannot face 3-5 opponents at the same time, because if they sense weakness, Israel, Greece/Armenia, Russia/Iran will come at the same time to destabilize Turkey.

Turkey must arm itself to the teeth, it has no other choice.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Thanks for answering, bro.
RCS of ~0.1m, is that still right for Kaan?

RCS values are arbitrary at this stage. The plane has all the parameters that conforms to low observability as it is. But it hasn’t got the RAM paint on yet. We don’t know how much improvement that will provide. Indigenous engines should have a positive effect as well.

There are various papers on RCS and stealth. I found the below paper which mentions KAAN. But I am suspicious about how scientifically correct and relevant this paper can be to the real life KAAN performance. Until we have all the facts in hand anyone can do is conjecture. (Any values that are mentioned about F35 are also arbitrary as LM has not provided any real figures as far as I know)

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Fazil-Altay/publication/376682089_TF-23_KAAN_TURKISH_5th_Gen_Fighter_Jet/links/658358483c472d2e8e773c7d/TF-23-KAAN-TURKISH-5th-Gen-Fighter-Jet.pdf?origin=publication_detail&_tp=eyJjb250ZXh0Ijp7ImZpcnN0UGFnZSI6InB1YmxpY2F0aW9uIiwicGFnZSI6InB1YmxpY2F0aW9uRG93bmxvYWQiLCJwcmV2aW91c1BhZ2UiOiJwdWJsaWNhdGlvbiJ9fQ

 

[Sanchez]

Per Özbek, HvKK and RAF chiefs also discussed the sale of ex-RAF C-130Js. Either the scope of the deal is lowered from 10-12 to 5 or this is just the first phase. So this is still not a done deal.

This previous news is now deleted from his website, and SSist says number is 12, again.

Why do I even bother...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1895399481556042210