TR Aircraft Carrier & Amphibious Ship Programs

[Anmdt]

Not STOVL but STOL

Hurjet cannot do vertical landing

That is why i am telling "a variant"
STOL is not an option for TCG Anadolu

You may listen in here.

 

[Combat-Master]

That is why i am telling "a variant"
STOL is not an option for TCG Anadolu

You may listen in here.

I think there's a "." between when he mentions Hurjet and when he moves onto "especially on subject of STOVL" - I think he was going to move onto STOVL UAV, but he gets tugged alot during the question and answers..

 

[Anmdt]

I think there's a "." between when he mentions Hurjet and when he moves onto "especially on subject of STOVL" - I think he was going to move onto STOVL UAV, but he gets tugged alot during the question and answers..

Could be true, since he particular emphasized deficiency of manned STOVL jets, like harrier is not supersonic and the supersonic F-35B is too expensive to keep up and keep pilots trained.

I rather interpreted his commentary as part of aiming to develop something easier to keep up but also to reach super-sonic speeds. I was hyped for a moment and i still prefer to dream a STOVL Hürjet . At least that aircraft sounds less absurd and feasible than cutting deck of Anadolu and placing an EMALS, or CATOBAR and Arrest wires to fulfill one of the roles while ruining the rest.
My other point, he also told Anadolu is primarily a LHD and will remain such,so i am not assuming major structural refits for systems which is going to be deployed on her.

Might be as you have told, he was probably planning to talk about advantages of STOVL unmanned systems and that woman has interrupted him.

 

[Combat-Master]

Could be true, since he particular emphasized deficiency of manned STOVL jets, like harrier is not supersonic and the supersonic F-35B is too expensive to keep up and keep pilots trained.

I rather interpreted his commentary as part of aiming to develop something easier to keep up but also to reach super-sonic speeds. I was hyped for a moment and i still prefer to dream a STOVL Hürjet . At least that aircraft sounds less absurd and feasible than cutting deck of Anadolu and placing an EMALS, or CATOBAR and Arrest wires to fulfill one of the roles while ruining the rest.
My other point, he also told Anadolu is primarily a LHD and will remain such,so i am not assuming major structural refits for systems which is going to be deployed on her.

Might be as you have told, he was probably planning to talk about advantages of STOVL unmanned systems and that woman has interrupted him.

I agree with you.

 

[Nilgiri]

STOL is not an option for TCG Anadolu

My other point, he also told Anadolu is primarily a LHD and will remain such,so i am not assuming major structural refits for systems which is going to be deployed on her.

Out of interest what are the major factors that govern/preclude (small-class) STOL-retrofit on a LHD, assuming cost/down-time is no issue? (Or is cost/down-time the major issue?)

Deck strength (for landing impulse loads), deck layout (and width), elevator layout, arresting wires, arresting systems, signalage, onboard CnC etc?

Hurjet is not that heavy of a/c makes me think if Turkey really wanted to it could do a feasibility analysis (unless the factors and any others are major bar to it)....esp given the expected service life of anadolu and interest to maximise asset's potential.

 

[Nilgiri]

At least that aircraft sounds less absurd and feasible than cutting deck of Anadolu and placing an EMALS, or CATOBAR and Arrest wires to fulfill one of the roles while ruining the rest.

I missed this in my haste....you have started answering my enquiry already here heh.

 

[Anmdt]

Out of interest what are the major factors that govern/preclude (small-class) STOL-retrofit on a LHD, assuming cost/down-time is no issue? (Or is cost/down-time the major issue?)

Deck strength (for landing impulse loads), deck layout (and width), elevator layout, arresting wires, arresting systems, signalage, onboard CnC etc?

Hurjet is not that heavy of a/c makes me think if Turkey really wanted to it could do a feasibility analysis (unless the factors and any others are major bar to it)....esp given the expected service life of anadolu and interest to maximise asset's potential.

The problem emerges that Navy is not interested in cutting a new ship open, first matter i think.

Second matter, cutting a deck primarily considered as " strength deck" which contributes integrity of the hull will require re-classification thus re-making all necessary calculations and simulations (unless they can make something like add-on, i don't know if possible) which will add extra costs while as i have told before, adversely affecting LHD role.

Deck can certainly handle landing of an aircraft, designed as such to hold against impacts (let's say it is strong enough to hold against an F-35B falling down from a certain height, or a heavy-duty 10t+ helicopter bouncing on the weakest spot of deck at certain relative speeds at a high sea state) so i don't think it would be even top 10 concerns, lets make it 20.

Elevator layout and runway plan is another thing combined together complicating the conversion. If the runway extending up to the rear, without any rear-down platform and elevator i could be more positive about installing wires.

 

[Nilgiri]

The problem emerges that Navy is not interested in cutting a new ship open, first matter i think.

Second matter, cutting a deck primarily considered as " strength deck" which contributes integrity of the hull will require re-classification thus re-making all necessary calculations and simulations (unless they can make something like add-on, i don't know if possible) which will add extra costs while as i have told before, adversely affecting LHD role.

Deck can certainly handle landing of an aircraft, designed as such to hold against impacts (let's say it is strong enough to hold against an F-35B falling down from a certain height, or a heavy-duty 10t+ helicopter bouncing on the weakest spot of deck at certain relative speeds at a high sea state) so i don't think it would be even top 10 concerns, lets make it 20.

Elevator layout and runway plan is another thing combined together complicating the conversion. If the runway extending up to the rear, without any rear-down platform and elevator i could be more positive about installing wires.

I'm assuming then, if the ski jump was sufficient for F-35 STO, it should also be for hurjet, I would imagine T/W and L/D ratios are roughly the same at their respective appropriate Take-off condition envelopes.

So if impulse load from landing is no issue as I thought too....what would be the need then to cut open the flight/strength deck in the main structural area?

Installation/securing of arresting systems and any other related systems (dealing with dynamic land rather than VL) would govern only the fringes of the deck, shouldn't be a problem I think.

Yah the layout is really the thing thats baked in for good, but I think there is buffer for hurjet-dynamic land + roll around given anadolu was designed with F-35 in mind originally...and F-35 is fair bit larger than hurjet.

I just kind of want Turkey to make use of the Ski jump heh....it did opt for it in end (with F-35 availability at that point), when it could have just made this pure-heli only if it wanted. It gonna look a bit silly having it for no use now....but you are right about developing UAV's for use with it I guess.

 

[Nutuk]

If you look at F35, it can short take off with the ski jump, the landing it does vertically (STOVL)

If say Hurjet can take off short like the much heavier F35, only the landing part needs to be taken care off.

Maybe the OKIS (Otomatik Kalkis ve Inis Sistemi) can be of use to land the Hurjet very precisely and stop it with an arresting hook.

An engineering challenge that Tusas could manage (they are making a 5th gen aircraft, landing should be a lesser problem)

 

[Yasar_TR]

I'm assuming then, if the ski jump was sufficient for F-35 STO, it should also be for hurjet, I would imagine T/W and L/D ratios are roughly the same at their respective appropriate Take-off condition envelopes.

So if impulse load from landing is no issue as I thought too....what would be the need then to cut open the flight/strength deck in the main structural area?

Installation/securing of arresting systems and any other related systems (dealing with dynamic land rather than VL) would govern only the fringes of the deck, shouldn't be a problem I think.

Yah the layout is really the thing thats baked in for good, but I think there is buffer for hurjet-dynamic land + roll around given anadolu was designed with F-35 in mind originally...and F-35 is fair bit larger than hurjet.

I just kind of want Turkey to make use of the Ski jump heh....it did opt for it in end (with F-35 availability at that point), when it could have just made this pure-heli only if it wanted. It gonna look a bit silly having it for no use now....but you are right about developing UAV's for use with it I guess.

The surface of TCG Anadolu was tempered especially to withstand f35’s engine heat. If they start laying arresting wires, they will have to destroy parts of this surface. Also if they want to use both UAV and Hurjet, then hydraulic arresting system is no good. They need electromagnetic system to vary the tension of the arresters to compensate for the weight difference.
The engine and wing area of Hurjet may need a bit of attention too, to improve load capacity and ease of take off.

 

[Nutuk]

The surface of TCG Anadolu was tempered especially to withstand f35’s engine heat. If they start laying arresting wires, they will have to destroy parts of this surface. Also if they want to use both UAV and Hurjet, then hydraulic arresting system is no good. They need electromagnetic system to vary the tension of the arresters to compensate for the weight difference.
The engine and wing area of Hurjet may need a bit of attention too, to improve load capacity and ease of take off.

These are technical details that can be solved (by using for instance 2 different arresting systems, one for Hurjet, one for drones)

Hurjet and Harrier have approximately same size, just to have an idea the picture below

 

[Anmdt]

if impulse load from landing is no issue as I thought too....what would be the need then to cut open the flight/strength deck in the main structural area?

There are people talking about installing emals /catobar etc like systems to launch airplanes and they claim it is feasible, my point was rather against them. While i believe arrestor wired can be resolved peacefully depending on modifications it may require.

Installation/securing of arresting systems and any other related systems (dealing with dynamic land rather than VL) would govern only the fringes of the deck, shouldn't be a problem I think.

And the problem is that, i don't know how would they install the wires, cross deck connector and the engines will be needed, but to stop a plane of 3 tonnes they will need to penetrate the deck to install those fancy engines.

The deck is capable of handling vertical impacts, wires (rather the connector) will exert a lateral load which needs an additional strengtening or cut throughs to let wires pass through the cross deck connector from top to one or further deck lower.

This may seem like 'just opening a hole wide as wire' but to install connector and do required modifications they would cut at least a portion between major structural elements and install a modified one in place with connector installed on.

Instaling wires seems feasible but again requires permanent modifications, which won't be needed in amphibious mode, moreover occupying space in hangar and probably cancelling a spot next to the island. I don't know how much room the wire arrestor engines would require too and whether it will cause issues in hangar, or can be it extended further down one deck below in armoured vehicle storage.

So instead, i think, if they have a plane to take off and land on a ship they will start building an aircraft carrier right away.

I just kind of want Turkey to make use of the Ski jump heh....it did opt for it in end (with F-35 availability at that point), when it could have just made this pure-heli only if it wanted. It gonna look a bit silly having it for no use now....but you are right about developing UAV's for use with it I guess.

It is first landing platform of the Turkish Navy so i presume there is a lot more to learn before actually concerning about that ski-jump .
I prefer crew and admirals to adjust with having such a large vessel and training themselves on joint amphibious operations initially.
And even if F-35B was leased i presume we would see those operational and jumping over ski-jump at least beyond 2030, maybe 2035 for the reasons i have mentioned above.

 

[Combat-Master]

These are technical details that can be solved (by using for instance 2 different arresting systems, one for Hurjet, one for drones)

Hurjet and Harrier have approximately same size, just to have an idea the picture below

Interesting

Hurjet has more wing area and about roughly the same amount of thrust too - Hurjet with composite build, will weight a heck of a lot less. To me it seems feasible, TAI - god damnit - make it happen.

 

[Khagan1923]

Interesting

Hurjet has more wing area and about roughly the same amount of thrust too - Hurjet with composite build, will weight a heck of a lot less. To me it seems feasible, TAI - god damnit - make it happen.

F404 and F414 should have the same measurements if I'm not mistaken. Could TAI not develop the armed version with F414 without having to change much in terms off fuselage and material?

F404 for Advanced Trainer and Acrobatic
F414 for Armed Air Force and Naval Version

Or is the difference in performance not worth the hassle

? Legit question.

 

[Saithan]

I would be very happy if we could get standard Hurjets out and flying soon. Like CM pointed out they're very important and once we've got them out and flying we'll double down on TFX, while a smaller crew works on improving the flying Hurjet.

I think we'll cooperate with UK on a STOVL solution seeing as how they have experience from Harrier and F35 as well. We will most likely use the knowledge we've acquired on the F35 project to come up with a design. That'll have to undergo feasibility tests and such.

So in the meantime we're spending a lot of resources on these side projects to see what can be done. And who ever presents a solution first is the winner, so if a STOVL/VTOL UAV comes first then that'll most likely be what we'll be using until such a time where a different product comes up.

But like @anmdt pointed out cutting a new vessel up for modification isn't likely something the Navy wants to see. The question here is how much the politicians interfere with the final products.

 

[Nutuk]

This is what Russia plans the new aircraft carrier Varan

Varan = 250m long, and 65m wide compared to

TCG Anadolu = 232m long and 32m wide

The main difference is being wider and having more space to land, I do not see reason why this problem cannot be solved by using OKIS system for automated landing.

Yes LHD is not ideal for aircraft operation but that we knew always. Our next ship should be something like the Russian Varan

 

[Combat-Master]

F404 and F414 should have the same measurements if I'm not mistaken. Could TAI not develop the armed version with F414 without having to change much in terms off fuselage and material?

F404 for Advanced Trainer and Acrobatic
F414 for Armed Air Force and Naval Version

Or is the difference in performance not worth the hassle

? Legit question.

They've put in some work for a EJ2000 engine and have some design alterations for that engine for Hurjet. We may see a stronger engine for combat variants, if it gets approved...

 

[Yasar_TR]

This is what Russia plans the new aircraft carrier Varan

Varan = 250m long, and 65m wide compared to

TCG Anadolu = 232m long and 32m wide

The main difference is being wider and having more space to land, I do not see reason why this problem cannot be solved by using OKIS system for automated landing.

Yes LHD is not ideal for aircraft operation but that we knew always. Our next ship should be something like the Russian Varan.

232 m for the whole ship. You have a big area at the back that is not included in the deck. Also there is the cut-out for the lift. If you take them all out you may end up with a deck shorter than 200 metres.

 

[Nutuk]

View attachment 17237
232 m for the whole ship. You have a big area at the back that is not included in the deck. Also there is the cut-out for the lift. If you take them all out you may end up with a deck shorter than 200 metres.

True, the flight deck is shorter but check out the flight decks of the Aircraft carrier, they do not use longer landing and take off paths.

 

[Anmdt]

True, the flight deck is shorter but check out the flight decks of the Aircraft carrier, they do not use longer landing and take off paths.

Because ACs usually have 2 runways, one to land on, which is obviously shorted, another long one (sometimes two) to take off (If there is catapult then this is shorter too). Allowing simultaneous operations.
That should be designed from scratch so that elevators can be adjusted as such.