TR Aircraft Carrier and Amphibious Ship Programs

[Khagan1923]

 

[SavunmaSanayiST.com]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1398553069554634752

 

[Zafer]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1398553069554634752

As a back up plan Hürjet can be flown from the Anadolu but landed on a short airstrip equipped with cable system. Hürjet can then be ferried back to the Anadolu on a warship having a helicopter deck. I am not sure if this can work at all but there maybe occasions that it may be useful. Short airstrips having arresting cables can be prepared in a multitude of locations easily both in Turkey and overseas. Or any suitable tarmac or semi-prepared strip can be fitted with quick deployable arresting gear and Hürjet can either be flow from or can be trucked from such small strips.

 

[Anmdt]

Many times I have said this is possible. But each time somebody came up with a negative comment. Now top man in Tusas is mentioning it.

Yes, it is possible but not "feasible" my negative comments arise from the feasibility point of view;
I have explain why in several posts regarding to;

• operational efficiency (impossible for simultaneous take off and landing,moreover placement of elevators are not efficient for that purpose too),
• narrow runway with a close island on side,
• stern elevator and stern -lowered poop-deck

iare making it all "not feasible" to convert TCG Anadolu into a conventional Aircraft Carrier. Moreover loosing pure LHD/LHA capabilities in favor of an Aircraft carrier conversion is not really a good idea as well. Considering the regions which Turkish Navy is deployed LHA/LHD roles are pretty much needed and Turkish Navy prioritizes this.

If they scrap LHD efficiency of TCG Anadolu and rush into converting and modifying it even before than Turkish Navy uses and gains experience on the platform for political reasons, i will not really have "naive" thoughts but i will be assured this was happening for pure political reasons and not for good.

However, after completing/maturing TF-2000 then we can start to talk about the aircraft carrier even before talking about a navalized Hurjet we should have been talking about a solid air-defense platform to protect the flotilla. I am pretty sure Turkish Navy wouldn't tell " nope" to an Aircraft carrier if they were asked whether they want one. If you have asked them, they wouldn't neither decline F-35B on TCG Anadolu at this stage.
The reason why TCG Anadolu is being referred for aircraft carrier subject is because it is the only available platform at the moment and the second ship is neither decided or in contract stage. And this has some political stand point.

Once the second ship is decided and named,we will hear people will refer to "TCG XXXX" for aircrafts to take off and land, not "TCG Anadolu".

TCG Anadolu will be LHD/LHA and a tactical drone carrier, if F-35B somehow happens then "creme de la creme" -- will be fully operational by 2025.
TCG XXXX will be the actual aircraft carrier designed from scratch for that role with 2 runways to operate in STOBAR to operate drones and fighters -- will be operational not before than 2030 (considering the budget, completion of navalized fighter, training of pilots, experiencing naval aviation.

At this stage, without even the navalized version of Hurjet emerging and rolled out, it is illogical to start a conversion of TCG Anadolu. I think first Hurjet Training version will be completed in short time, then a combat version to fill the gap for airforce will be certified for military uses and finally a navalized version may appear. Also with MMU on the platter,i don't think these will be happening before 2027-2028.

With or without Hurjet, the plans for aircraft carrier will be only logical post 2030.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Yes, it is possible but not "feasible" my negative comments arise from the feasibility point of view;
I have explain why in several posts regarding to;

• operational efficiency (impossible for simultaneous take off and landing,moreover placement of elevators are not efficient for that purpose too),
• narrow runway with a close island on side,
• stern elevator and stern -lowered poop-deck

iare making it all "not feasible" to convert TCG Anadolu into a conventional Aircraft Carrier. Moreover loosing pure LHD/LHA capabilities in favor of an Aircraft carrier conversion is not really a good idea as well. Considering the regions which Turkish Navy is deployed LHA/LHD roles are pretty much needed and Turkish Navy prioritizes this.

If they scrap LHD efficiency of TCG Anadolu and rush into converting and modifying it even before than Turkish Navy uses and gains experience on the platform for political reasons, i will not really have "naive" thoughts but i will be assured this was happening for pure political reasons and not for good.

However, after completing/maturing TF-2000 then we can start to talk about the aircraft carrier even before talking about a navalized Hurjet we should have been talking about a solid air-defense platform to protect the flotilla. I am pretty sure Turkish Navy wouldn't tell " nope" to an Aircraft carrier if they were asked whether they want one. If you have asked them, they wouldn't neither decline F-35B on TCG Anadolu at this stage.
The reason why TCG Anadolu is being referred for aircraft carrier subject is because it is the only available platform at the moment and the second ship is neither decided or in contract stage. And this has some political stand point.

Once the second ship is decided and named,we will hear people will refer to "TCG XXXX" for aircrafts to take off and land, not "TCG Anadolu".

TCG Anadolu will be LHD/LHA and a tactical drone carrier, if F-35B somehow happens then "creme de la creme" -- will be fully operational by 2025.
TCG XXXX will be the actual aircraft carrier designed from scratch for that role with 2 runways to operate in STOBAR to operate drones and fighters -- will be operational not before than 2030 (considering the budget, completion of navalized fighter, training of pilots, experiencing naval aviation.

At this stage, without even the navalized version of Hurjet emerging and rolled out, it is illogical to start a conversion of TCG Anadolu. I think first Hurjet Training version will be completed in short time, then a combat version to fill the gap for airforce will be certified for military uses and finally a navalized version may appear. Also with MMU on the platter,i don't think these will be happening before 2027-2028.

With or without Hurjet, the plans for aircraft carrier will be only logical post 2030.

I fully agree with most of what you have mentioned in your article. TCG Anadolu‘s best chance as an “aircraft carrier” is with F35B.
Also the elevator at the end of the ship is in the way. I can’t imagine a plane coming in with it’s hook hanging down to hit the end of the deck to catch one of the arresting wires safely without catching the elevator‘s parts. (With special care this could be overcome. But still suspect).
Possibility and feasibility are the operating words here!
As to landing and taking off simultaneously; It is out of the question. But for a “carrier” with 6-8 planes (even 12 planes) you do not really need simultaneous operations. Alternate landing and taking off can be utilised. Larger carriers with 30-60 planes has to have dual runways to accommodate simultaneous landing and take off.
For political reasons they seem to be sacrificing this expensive ship. Everyone was told a 1200kg TB3 UCAV would be operating from this ship with an arresting wire system fitted to the end of the ship, destroying the expensive surface of the deck. Now they are talking about landing a 10 ton plane with an arresting wire. Both can not be unless a variable strength electromagnetic system is used.
I am beginning to think that messages are being given to the public along the lines of political climate.

 

[Anmdt]

As to landing and taking off simultaneously; It is out of the question. But for a “carrier” with 6-8 planes (even 12 planes) you do not really need simultaneous operations. Alternate landing and taking off can be utilised. Larger carriers with 30-60 planes has to have dual runways to accommodate simultaneous landing and take off.

Simultaneous here does not refer to planes taking off and landing at the same time but when one plane comes down and hooked succesfully, another plane can attached to catapult and launched without waiting it to be removed:
Since Catapult is the "impossible" part for TCG Anadolu, a ski-jump assisted take off will need entire or majority of the runway, so in this case:

Single way configuration:
- One plane comes down, hooked and stopped mid-way, wait there is no elevator nearby,
- Then pulled to the nearest elevator, with current situation will be at the fore elevator,
- Meanwhile, it will be impossible for another plane to get ready before landing, because for landing the stern elevator will wait up on deck level and hangar will be closed for safety.
-The plane to take off will need to use the stern elevator to get up on the beginning of the runway, can not be stored in taxi position on stern side of island because it is not safe.
- After the landing, hangar door will open, elevator lowered, new plane taken up and take off.

While on 2-way configuration:
- one plane lands and stops mid-way on its own individual landing runway
- right after it stops, another plane awaiting on taxi spot on fore side of the island or between of the islands, pulled the catapult which is very close,
- then takes off, nothing prevents preparations on the taxi position because it is near to the catapult and also there are elevators for ease of operations nearby to both runways.
- also inclined runway allows the safety for taxi positions at the taxi spot.

Note TCG Anadolu can theoretically ,in pure AC mode, carry 16-20 aircrafts. Efficiency of operations is really important here otherwise it has no gain to operate a few aircrafts at a time, in my opinion even with limited number of aircrafts. There is a need for dedicated amount of squadrons up and flying, it matters how fast you can deploy a new squadron after one lands and how fast it can land, how long does it take to clear the runway, how long does it take to refresh the assets. So i think, it is not about the number of the aircraft carrier but about efficiency.

 

[Turko]

Yes, it is possible but not "feasible" my negative comments arise from the feasibility point of view;
I have explain why in several posts regarding to;

• operational efficiency (impossible for simultaneous take off and landing,moreover placement of elevators are not efficient for that purpose too),
• narrow runway with a close island on side,
• stern elevator and stern -lowered poop-deck

iare making it all "not feasible" to convert TCG Anadolu into a conventional Aircraft Carrier. Moreover loosing pure LHD/LHA capabilities in favor of an Aircraft carrier conversion is not really a good idea as well. Considering the regions which Turkish Navy is deployed LHA/LHD roles are pretty much needed and Turkish Navy prioritizes this.

If they scrap LHD efficiency of TCG Anadolu and rush into converting and modifying it even before than Turkish Navy uses and gains experience on the platform for political reasons, i will not really have "naive" thoughts but i will be assured this was happening for pure political reasons and not for good.

However, after completing/maturing TF-2000 then we can start to talk about the aircraft carrier even before talking about a navalized Hurjet we should have been talking about a solid air-defense platform to protect the flotilla. I am pretty sure Turkish Navy wouldn't tell " nope" to an Aircraft carrier if they were asked whether they want one. If you have asked them, they wouldn't neither decline F-35B on TCG Anadolu at this stage.
The reason why TCG Anadolu is being referred for aircraft carrier subject is because it is the only available platform at the moment and the second ship is neither decided or in contract stage. And this has some political stand point.

Once the second ship is decided and named,we will hear people will refer to "TCG XXXX" for aircrafts to take off and land, not "TCG Anadolu".

TCG Anadolu will be LHD/LHA and a tactical drone carrier, if F-35B somehow happens then "creme de la creme" -- will be fully operational by 2025.
TCG XXXX will be the actual aircraft carrier designed from scratch for that role with 2 runways to operate in STOBAR to operate drones and fighters -- will be operational not before than 2030 (considering the budget, completion of navalized fighter, training of pilots, experiencing naval aviation.

At this stage, without even the navalized version of Hurjet emerging and rolled out, it is illogical to start a conversion of TCG Anadolu. I think first Hurjet Training version will be completed in short time, then a combat version to fill the gap for airforce will be certified for military uses and finally a navalized version may appear. Also with MMU on the platter,i don't think these will be happening before 2027-2028.

With or without Hurjet, the plans for aircraft carrier will be only logical post 2030.

i was crucified in defence.pk when i offered it.

 

[Anmdt]

i was crucified in defence.pk when i offered it.

Like Galileo

 

[dustdevil]

-The Navy aviation arm does not have any jet fighter experience - it has to be accumulated.
-Hürjet does not exist yet, it should exist first and experience has to be accumulated. Even if a pilot transitions to a regular and common type of aircraft it takes years to master it, so think about brand new ones.
-Carrier version of the Hürjet does not exist, same as above considerations.

With this lack of experience, trying to fit a carrier version of Hürjet into the limited deck space of TCG Anadolu (especially the superstructure next to the runway looks close) would be a very high risk operation. Flying helicopters or other type of aircraft is already hard, maybe some are even harder than winged platforms, so it's not directly about pilots but this carrier ops using jet aircraft is another experience. It would take years to grow this capability and should not be rushed for political reasons unless there is an urgency.

I'd be surprised if done in short time though, but there are so many new pieces...

 

[TheInsider]

Deploying Hurjet to TCG Anadolu is not feasible it needs a huge redesign and reconstruction.

Stern elevator needs to be moved to somewhere else for this lower decks has to be redesigned.
Need 2 different hook arrestor systems for TB3 and Hurjet, if you try to stop TB3 and Hurjet with the same arrestor it will break down TB3.
Since there is only 1 runway utilization of Hurjet and sortie rates will be awful. No choppers or UAVs can land or take off while the runway is in use. There is no way to add another runway. This is not a problem for UAVs as they have a long loiter time.

 

[Saithan]

HÜRJET'te sevindirici haber: Dikey iniş kalkış özelliği kazandırılıyor!

Anadolu Çok Maksatlı Amfibi Hücum Gemisi’nde konuşlandırılabilecek hava platformlarına ilişkin çalışmalar sürerken Hürjet'in kimi modifikasyonlarla dikine kalkış özelliği kazanacağı bildirildi.

www.siyasetcafe.com

Hürjet capable of VTOL mentioned by Ismail Demir.

I know conditions/need change and our defence industry must adapt to the changes/needs. I would be really sorry to see Storm P makeshift changes to built platforms unless we're entering war. I see such changes as being waste of money and reduces lifetime of the platforms.

I will not get excited or overjoyed based on palavra. Hürjet is a must I don't care if it can land on LHD, or AC. Building our own fighter jets will be a big enough step in itself to offset the balance, even if it's a Light Jet.

If you need reason to spend more money to keep the capital flow high, then build more Naval Vessels. I don't mind if TN grows. If we have 10 ekstra Ada class then that means our TN personnelle doesn't have to break records.

 

[Nutuk]

Bence VTOL olamaz, VSTOL belki

 

[Zafer]

HÜRJET'te sevindirici haber: Dikey iniş kalkış özelliği kazandırılıyor!

Anadolu Çok Maksatlı Amfibi Hücum Gemisi’nde konuşlandırılabilecek hava platformlarına ilişkin çalışmalar sürerken Hürjet'in kimi modifikasyonlarla dikine kalkış özelliği kazanacağı bildirildi.

www.siyasetcafe.com

Hürjet capable of VTOL mentioned by Ismail Demir.

I know conditions/need change and our defence industry must adapt to the changes/needs. I would be really sorry to see Storm P makeshift changes to built platforms unless we're entering war. I see such changes as being waste of money and reduces lifetime of the platforms.

I will not get excited or overjoyed based on palavra. Hürjet is a must I don't care if it can land on LHD, or AC. Building our own fighter jets will be a big enough step in itself to offset the balance, even if it's a Light Jet.

If you need reason to spend more money to keep the capital flow high, then build more Naval Vessels. I don't mind if TN grows. If we have 10 ekstra Ada class then that means our TN personnelle doesn't have to break records.

It is good to make studies and see the possibilities. Modifications can be made when there is a presssing necessity to do so. I guess initially TCG Anadolu can be used for tactical class UAV operations and once a necessity comes up modifications can be made to upgrade the capabilities of the ship. Mind you helicopters can for the most part be flown from the backs of smaller ships vacating TCG Andolu for jet fighter and UAV operations. Also provisions can be made to fly tactical UAVs from the back of smaller ships to be landed on Anadolu if necessary.

 

[Fuzuli NL]

Bence VTOL olamaz, VSTOL belki

You mean STOVL?

 

[Hexciter]

You mean STOVL?

VSTOL has its own meaning which is different than the STOVL

 

[Yasar_TR]

You mean STOVL?

Very Short Take-off & Landing! =. VSTOL

(The true acronym is Verical/short take off & landing)
STOL is more likely!

 

[Nutuk]

You mean STOVL?

No VSTOL is very short take off and landing

STOVL is short take off Vertical landing


Hurjet cannot do vertical landing with some modifications, the design has to change from scratch. A complete new design aircraft would be needed.

I do not know if it is possible though to modify the Hurjet into very short take off and landing. (the landing part could be modified by larger wing area to creat enough lift of for slow speeds and arresting hook to capture the aircraft)

the very short Lift of can maybe also accomplished (again larger wing area for lift of at slower speeds)

 

[Yasar_TR]

No VSTOL is very short take off and landing

STOVL is short take off Vertical landing


Hurjet cannot do vertical landing with some modifications, the design has to change from scratch. A complete new design aircraft would be needed.

I do not know if it is possible though to modify the Hurjet into very short take off and landing. (the landing part could be modified by larger wing area to creat enough lift of for slow speeds and arresting hook to capture the aircraft)

the very short Lift of can maybe also accomplished (again larger wing area for lift of at slower speeds)

Actually real acronym of VSTOL is Verical/Short Take-off & Landing. Harrier jump jet is VSTOL.

V/STOL | military aircraft

Other articles where V/STOL is discussed: warship: Light carriers: A carrier equipped with these V/STOL (vertical/short takeoff and landing) jets could be much smaller than a full jet carrier, because it would need neither catapults nor arresting gear. In the 1970s and ’80s, Britain built three...

www.britannica.com

 

[Zafer]

An ESTOL - Extremely Short Take Off and Landing variant that lands in under 100 meters without arresting gear can be made with minimal modifications to Hürjet. One that can be considered the poor man's F35. And the tarmac is ready for it.

 

[Ryder]

Love me some VTOL