TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

Cabatli_TR

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We are on the last level in the most strategic land vehicles. The 1000hp and 1500hp powerpack projects are even more important than the tank itself. In about 3 years, we will get the result of the struggle against all obstacles. Then this great project will get the attention it deserves. At that time, the countries under the Turkish influence and brother states will have state of art tanks with APS which they did not even dare to buy from the West.
 

Bmx98

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We are on the last level in the most strategic land vehicles. The 1000hp and 1500hp powerpack projects are even more important than the tank itself. In about 3 years, we will get the result of the struggle against all obstacles. Then this great project will get the attention it deserves. At that time, the countries under the Turkish influence and brother states will have state of art tanks with APS which they did not even dare to buy from the West.
3 years is too much, I think Utku will be ready for serial production in no more than a year from now, Batu's transmission might take a bit longer but I believe if engineers find a solution it won't take more than 2 years.
 

Xenon54

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From how I see it
The main problem Erdogan did is that he believed some1 without qualifications at all to do such a sensitive job. Erdo didnt sell it to that idiot (forgot his name) because he was Erdo's friend, but because that "idiot" promised Erdogan to do the impossible within a short time frame; Erdo believed him and provided all the incentives the govt can do to support that "idiot" and yet he failed
If he was truly a friend, then Erdo would have kept BMC under that "idiot"s control yet Erdo kicked him out of the party and treated him as a pariah!

Erdo wanted excellent results so quickly that he forgot to look at the process that needed to be done to achieve that required result

At least he did learn from the mistake and gave it to qualified personnel like Tosyali and good results are starting to appear within a short time frame of 2 years!

If Erdo wanted to waste tax payer's money, then he can just throw it into useless construction projects and Erdo and his friends will earn billions more than with the BMC's fiasco. It seems that Erdo truly wanted to build the Altay and this is proven by the fact that the govt. Especially Ismail Demir tried to salvage the tank program no matter what after it has been sabotaged by the German engine embargo by providing incentives, engine alternatives and local engine design and production

This is further proven by @dBSPL recent post which stated that even after the german engine embargo, Turkey's allies continued to try and hinder the tank's development. The fact that we see Altay now is a fact that the govt, SSB, BMC, and TSK suffered a lot to reach this stage and a testament to their desires of seeing Altay on the battlefield kicking ass!
So he got fooled once again, Erdogan must be the naivest leader in the world, everyone that he trusted fools
him in the end, thank god he does not bear the consequences of his naivity, its the people of Turkey.

No words on this, there were people who defended Ethem at all costs and put their pride before him to finally see this confession from new the management of BMC.
Gotta ask yourself what the thought process of people are who come up with the idea of defending corrupt rich elites who eat their very own tax money.
Never understood that logic.
 

Saithan

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It’s very tempting to call out those who defended the sale to Ethem Sancak. But they behave as expected.

unfortunately Firtina-2 is likely just as much affected by these delays.

But at least it seems Tosyali has integrity.
 

Stuka

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New prototype ready for Altay tank program
(Fatih Altaylı's column)
(translation)

You may recall that last week I wrote an article questioning the delay in Turkiye's Altay tank.

The tank, two main prototypes of which were delivered to the Turkish Armed Forces in 2013, was tendered for mass production in 2018 after a three-year trial period, but despite the four years that had passed, it had not been put into mass production.

Murat Yalçıntaş called me after the column.

As you may know, Mr. Murat became the CEO of BMC after Ethem Sancak transferred his shares to Tosyalı Holding.

He called and said, "I want to explain the issues you about the Altay tank."

We met in my office yesterday. They came here together with BMC's general manager Mehmet Karaaslan.

"There are a lot of things being said about the Altay tank, both politically and in the media. We don't pay attention to any of them, but when you mentioned it, we felt the need to respond and explain ourselves a bit."

It was Fuat Tosyalı who pulled Yalçıntaş away from academic life and convinced him to work professionally for the first time in his life.

"I've never worked for anyone, I can't do it," he said.

Tosyalı said, "You will be completely free. I will not interfere in your business. Manage this place with the same vision as you manage your own company. I just want to hear and learn what you do in the board of directors," and they shook hands.

General Manager Mehmet Karaaslan has been involved in the Altay tank project since its first day.

When the Altay tank project was initiated by Otokar, Mehmet Karaaslan was the head of this project at Otokar.

When the project changed hands, he followed the project to BMC.

"It's like my son. I've been working on it since I was young and I'm doing my best to see it through to completion. When the tender was won by BMC, there was nothing left for me to do at Otokar. So I moved with the project," he said.

We talked with Yalçıntaş and Karaaslan for close to 3 hours.

They asked that some of what we talked about not be written on the record for the time being due to the sensitivity of the project, and they told us everything.

After the change of BMC's local partner and the transfer of 51 percent of the shares to the Tosyalı group, the first thing they did was to return the land allocated by the state in Karasu.

Mr. Fuat said, "Let's return the allocated land. Let's buy the factory site with our money".

And they bought two large plots of land in two different OIZs in Ankara and Düzce.

Factory constructions started there.

At the controversial Tank Pallet Factory, they started to renew more than 1000 machines that had already completed their economic life.

I also asked Murat Yalçıntaş about BMC's factory land in Izmir. It was rumored that this valuable land would be vacated and turned into a residential and commercial area.

Yalçıntaş denied this.

"There is no such project. That is BMC's headquarters and it will stay there. Neither moving it nor building a residential area in its place is out of the question. Let's go and visit it together whenever you want," he said.

Under the umbrella of BMC, they have established a new company called BMC Power.

"We are moving towards the final stage of developing a domestic engine. A team of 300 engineers at Istanbul Teknopark is working on this. BMC Power has completed the design of 400 horsepower, 600 horsepower, 1000 horsepower and 1500 horsepower engines. If not at the beginning, we will soon put domestic engines in our tanks in mass production. These engines will be installed not only in tanks, but also in all domestically produced defense vehicles. Even armored personnel carriers and storm howitzers. That's why we worked on engines with four different power levels."

They gave very detailed information.

However, my main question was "Why was it delayed so long?"

Mehmet Karaaslan, who has been in charge of the project since the first day of the Altay tank, explained.

"As you said, the prototypes were actually completed and delivered in 2013. Then this tender was held. But in the meantime, the Turkish Armed Forces made new demands regarding the Altay tank. We had to add new capabilities. Within different systems. The change of the power group also required a new design in itself. We reworked all of this, and we have now reached the stage of completing this prototype. In a sense, this is the "New Altay". It is a very differentiated tank from the tank of 9 years ago. This took us a long time. It is now ready and we will deliver two prototypes to the Turkish Armed Forces in 2023.

Actually, it is not correct to call these prototypes. We can say that these are the first two tanks of the first 100 package that we will deliver to the TAF. These will be tested by TAF under field conditions. The first prototypes we gave to the Turkish Armed Forces took more than three years to be tested, but this one will not take that long. After the approval, we will deliver the remaining 98 tanks of the first batch."

After approval, they plan to deliver 8 tanks per month.

Of course, while all this was going on, many countries, including our allies, were trying, perhaps naturally, to complicate and delay this project.

This is also the reason why they want to keep some things confidential for the time being.

However, I couldn't help but ask.

"How right was it to give 49 percent of this business to the Qataris?"

Murat Yalçıntaş's answer was as follows:

"We don't even see the Qatari partners. They are not involved in anything. They are like silent partners. They only get information from the board of directors. Only one person even came to see the factory building. He came one day at the weekend and had a look. As you know, it is the Qatar Army Fund. And they are partners in many very important industrial companies in the world. We also see the benefit of this. They help us open some doors or open them faster. They also have shares in very important defense industry companies in the UK and other countries. We also see their benefits as capital support."

Déjà-vu

 

Baris

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there were rumors that part orders for the 2 "prototypes" already reached the sub-industries a month ago
 

Mehmed Ali

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I believe that the artical says that after the first prototype was produced (2013)TSK asked for different specifications. Also in article is stated , it was almost different viechle due to that. Also is stated that for the new prototype it took 3 year to produce.
I think it is not too hard to read article again , it is not too hard to work out simple formula. But I guess as it's very often the case nowdays , when someone barks a lie often then then it becomes a truth. Besides being tedious it shows that in reality these people have not much to say. Ofcourse, this thing would happen if Otokar was in charge ( more or less) and they know it, it just shows that for some people " ideas " are equal to wishing sometimes constructive.
 

dBSPL

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I believe that the artical says that after the first prototype was produced (2013)TSK asked for different specifications. Also in article is stated , it was almost different viechle due to that. Also is stated that for the new prototype it took 3 year to produce.
I think it is not too hard to read article again , it is not too hard to work out simple formula. But I guess as it's very often the case nowdays , when someone barks a lie often then then it becomes a truth. Besides being tedious it shows that in reality these people have not much to say. Ofcourse, this thing would happen if Otokar was in charge ( more or less) and they know it, it just shows that for some people " ideas " are equal to wishing sometimes constructive.
Not only did the procurement plan for the Altay MBT have to change mostly, but the Turkish Armed Forces, as always, continued the development of the system with compelling and ever-increasing demands even before the system entered service.

In my opinion, the main mistake here is the SSB's(SSM) planning problem. We are talking about a program that dates back to the 90s. We started out with the aim of producing a platform that had proven itself with domestic participation, turned into indigenous development with foreign technical support in 2004, and since 2014 we have been struggling to produce an indigenous product while fighting against the obstacles of European sub-suppliers. The Pentagon wars movie, which tells the story of the Bradley combat vehicle, has a score of 7.2 on the IMDB database. If the same team wants to make a movie about Altay, it will definitely be a masterpiece in its field.
 

Xenon54

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I believe that the artical says that after the first prototype was produced (2013)TSK asked for different specifications. Also in article is stated , it was almost different viechle due to that. Also is stated that for the new prototype it took 3 year to produce.
I think it is not too hard to read article again , it is not too hard to work out simple formula. But I guess as it's very often the case nowdays , when someone barks a lie often then then it becomes a truth. Besides being tedious it shows that in reality these people have not much to say. Ofcourse, this thing would happen if Otokar was in charge ( more or less) and they know it, it just shows that for some people " ideas " are equal to wishing sometimes constructive.
Here is another one..
Please elaborate what lies we are ''barking'' here.
 

Mehmed Ali

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Here is another one..
Please elaborate what lies we are ''barking'' here.
Other one of what exactly? It is not easy to put me in a category, I know it complicates things for people who like to talk in phrases and slander and are a bit sanctimonious. On other hand it is easier for me to say " one of those " because for years on different forums you are interested only in 2 things . One is Israel the other is talking about " the corruption of certain people " and that's about it.
 

Xenon54

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Other one of what exactly? It is not easy to put me in a category, I know it complicates things for people who like to talk in phrases and slander and are a bit sanctimonious. On other hand it is easier for me to say " one of those " because for years on different forums you are interested only in 2 things . One is Israel the other is talking about " the corruption of certain people " and that's about it.
You know what, i just deleted everything i was about to post, not worth the effort nor disturbing people by going more offtopic...
Put me on ignore list so you dont have to feed your narcissistic disorder by describing how special you are. I certainly will put you on the said list after the second personal attack from your side.
 
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-Sinan-

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I believe that the artical says that after the first prototype was produced (2013)TSK asked for different specifications. Also in article is stated , it was almost different viechle due to that. Also is stated that for the new prototype it took 3 year to produce.
I think it is not too hard to read article again , it is not too hard to work out simple formula. But I guess as it's very often the case nowdays , when someone barks a lie often then then it becomes a truth. Besides being tedious it shows that in reality these people have not much to say. Ofcourse, this thing would happen if Otokar was in charge ( more or less) and they know it, it just shows that for some people " ideas " are equal to wishing sometimes constructive.
Unlike you, Xenon and I followed every development of this tank since it was just a tender page on SSM's website. We can recall how the tender got cancelled again and again until BMC got it from Otokar because of the Gezi protests. Not only Altay tank but also Milgem Corvettes illegally taken from the owner of Otokar (Koç).

As we don't put an effort to explain why Gülenist Cult is a terror organization to certain people, we will not try to explain this issue to "certain" people.
 

Lool

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So he got fooled once again, Erdogan must be the naivest leader in the world, everyone that he trusted fools
him in the end, thank god he does not bear the consequences of his naivity, its the people of Turkey.
It is without a doubt that Erdogan got duped soo badly on the Altay issue thx to that idiot, Ethem sancak, regardless of the reason; although IMO, I think that Erdo agreed to him because he was one of the richest people in Turkey and had considerable assets to support the comlany which was a big mistake. That idiot didnt even upgrade the machinery in the current factory per @dBSPL post

Now onto the main issue, I do support Erdogan compared to other idiotic Turkish politicians but even I should admit that Erdogan is no more than a human; he is set to make mistakes here and there especially when it comes to a field where no other international player wanna aid your endeavour in whatever you wanna create! The factors that differentiate whether Erdogan or any other politician from being a fool or a good leader is patriotism, desire, and whether he learns from his mistakes or not! Luckily, the Ethem incident acted as a wake up call for Erdogan and it seems that by giving it to more qualified individuals, results may be starting to appear in BMC

Although, I think the Turkish nation and Erdogan are very lucky tbh! Turkey got duped in its Altay program and learned a really good hard lesson from it! This is way better than learning a hard lesson from a sabotage or embargo within even more CRITICAL and crucial programs like the TFX or the National Submarine program.
Just imagine a case where the german embargoed engines to the TFX program rather than the Altay program! The lesson being learnt then will be 100 times more painful and severe than with the Altay both on Erdogan and the general taxpayer

Finally, I just want to say that none of the current worldwide leaders begin on the same playing field! When Putin began to rule his nation, his nation already had jet technology, tank technology, engine technology, space technology, and nuclear technology etc... The same is for Macron, Merkel, Biden, Trump etc.... When Erdogan ruled, he had nothing of those and had to start from scratch which is an important point to mention! Calling Erdogan the most naive leader is nothing but wrong analysis

I can go on on how many leaders worldwide have many advantages over Erdogan yet cant even do half of what he, TSK, SSB, or the Turksih engineers have done with their limited resources but my post became way too long already😅
 
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Mehmed Ali

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Otolokar owner of Altay or Milgem , no. Turkish armed forces are the owners of that , it is usually the ones who order and pay thar are owners of those things. Technically also , they are ( TSK) also designers . I guess that the tanks officers and military engineers know what is the tank , its usage etc more then people who designed something totally different before. We can see by the artical that there has been various reasons for the delay. Obviously even if you say that it is because the corruption then it is not the only reason. At the end of the day , the interview was given by the leading people of BMC in public. So it is open to scrutiny and if one has something tangible in hand , well they are free to present it in an appropriate manner.
 

dBSPL

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Otolokar owner of Altay or Milgem , no. Turkish armed forces are the owners of that , it is usually the ones who order and pay thar are owners of those things. Technically also , they are ( TSK) also designers . I guess that the tanks officers and military engineers know what is the tank , its usage etc more then people who designed something totally different before. We can see by the artical that there has been various reasons for the delay. Obviously even if you say that it is because the corruption then it is not the only reason. At the end of the day , the interview was given by the leading people of BMC in public. So it is open to scrutiny and if one has something tangible in hand , well they are free to present it in an appropriate manner.
The 1 billion 150 million Euros Milgem tender was withdrawn from RMK (KOC's shipyard) due to alleged irregularities in the tender. It was first reported that the companies that were not invited to tender had complained to the Prime Ministry and that inspectors had started an investigation. It was claimed that Metin Kalkavan (Turkon Holding), one of the important figures of the maritime sector and a close friend of Erdoğan at the time, was influential in this matter. I don't know if it is related to this, but in the same period, some staff changes were made at the SSM (now SSB). (also note, Ironically, Kalkavan's shipyard Sedef won the LHD tender 2 years later.) Another claim was that the attitude of some institutions affiliated with KOC Holding during the Gezi uprising was related to this decision, but I think this is a controversial claim because Mustafa Koç, the number 1 name of the Koç family at that time, was also known to be close to Erdoğan. KOC Holding increased its turnover several times in the Erdoğan period.

I don't want to go into too much detail, but in Turkish defense circles this is seen more as an Erdoğan-KOC fight.
 
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Mehmed Ali

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The 1 billion 150 million Euros Milgem tender was withdrawn from RMK (KOC's shipyard) due to alleged irregularities in the tender. It was first reported that the companies that were not invited to tender had complained to the Prime Ministry and that inspectors had started an investigation. It was claimed that Metin Kalkavan (Turkon Holding), one of the important figures of the maritime sector and a close friend of Erdoğan at the time, was influential in this matter. I don't know if it is related to this, but in the same period, some staff changes were made at the SSM (now SSB). (also note, Ironically, Kalkavan's shipyard Sedef won the LHD tender 2 years later.) Another claim was that the attitude of some institutions affiliated with KOC Holding during the Gezi uprising was related to this decision, but I think this is a controversial claim because Mustafa Koç, the number 1 name of the Koç family at that time, was also known to be close to Erdoğan. KOC Holding increased its turnover several times in the Erdoğan period.

I don't want to go into too much detail, but in Turkish defense circles this is seen more as an Erdoğan-KOC fight.
I understand,, my objection was that Koc are not owner of the project , they might be contracted or not but if they were, still they are not the owners of the projects. Also, let's say for the sake of the argument that there was some illegal activities, at least according to article in Haberturk it would be just one of many reasons so it is logical to presume that presenting ALLEGED corruption as only one reason for delay at best is unfair. If someone has a problem with an article then he or she can present their argument in the reasonable manner ( proof would help) and with that I wouldn't have problem. The mere accusations mean absolutely nothing, would anything stated in this forums ever see the light of the day in a court? Ofcourse not, so after years of talk someone should put up or shut up.
To add , if Koc was one of the people behind Ghezi Park , does anybody honestly can think thar the people who he plotted against should give him the opportunity to make loads of money? It would be absolutely irrational. As they say " Those who live by sword die by sord" . So if that is true ( Ghezi park) then it is an incredible audacity to demand the money of hoped for victim.
 
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Xenon54

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Unlike you, Xenon and I followed every development of this tank since it was just a tender page on SSM's website. We can recall how the tender got cancelled again and again until BMC got it from Otokar because of the Gezi protests. Not only Altay tank but also Milgem Corvettes illegally taken from the owner of Otokar (Koç).

As we don't put an effort to explain why Gülenist Cult is a terror organization to certain people, we will not try to explain this issue to "certain" people.
We could even go further back when public tenders were publicly televised and we saw how ethem sancak got BMC way under its value stunning everybody in the room, cant find the video anymore though.
These things were public in front of our eyes but when we mention them we get called dogs and moderation seems to allow those personal attack lately, sad state of development here.
 
M

Manomed

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BMC has zero to no experience in making tracked vehicles Im pretty sure there will be shit ton of defects because of this
 
M

Manomed

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Other one of what exactly? It is not easy to put me in a category, I know it complicates things for people who like to talk in phrases and slander and are a bit sanctimonious. On other hand it is easier for me to say " one of those " because for years on different forums you are interested only in 2 things . One is Israel the other is talking about " the corruption of certain people " and that's about it.
BMC has close ties with israel more then otokar does you should do some research.
 
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