Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

TheInsider

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The tank may have been ready, but there were no facilities capable of producing the tank en-masse, for facilities to be constructed and put into service it would have taken 2 extra years (As disclosed by Otokar). No one is going to order 50-100 Powerpacks when you don't have the capability to produce the tanks even at LRIP.

What happened is not ideal, however, they did not idly sit on their hands. Altay has gained more capabilities and is improved considerably since Otokar completed acceptance tests.
Order and delivery are not the same things. You put an order and get the export license first. Once the export license is granted revoking it will be harder. As there will be a commercial contract with MTU. Buying MTU engines from Germany is not the same as signing up for F-35. They can't stop delivering engines once an export license is granted and a contract is signed. If they do MTU has to pay heavy fines. That is why Germans are chickening away when Greeks push them to stop the U-214TN project. If something like that happens we will immediately stop the payments and sue them. Germans had to pay billions in breach of the contract. Procuring MTU engines is a commercial contract. F-35 is a government-to-government special deal hence they can stop it without fearing the legal backlash.

AVL is an Austrian company, not German.
There was no German embargo in place for Altay before operation Olive Branch (2018). We were producing T-155 Fırtına without any issues.
 

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Order and delivery are not the same things. You put an order and get the export license first. Once the export license is granted revoking it will be harder. As there will be a commercial contract with MTU. Buying MTU engines from Germany is not the same as signing up for F-35. They can't stop delivering engines once an export license is granted and a contract is signed. If they do MTU has to pay heavy fines. That is why Germans are chickening away when Greeks push them to stop the U-214TN project. If something like that happens we will immediately stop the payments and sue them. Germans had to pay billions in breach of the contract. Procuring MTU engines is a commercial contract. F-35 is a government-to-government special deal hence they can stop it without fearing the legal backlash.

AVL is an Austrian company, not German.
There was no German embargo in place for Altay before operation Olive Branch (2018). We were producing T-155 Fırtına without any issues.
A commercial contract is not going to prevent an embargo for defence products. We've already seen this exact scenario multiple times. AVL List had already signed the contract for tech support in 2015 but Austria forced it to be cancelled in 2016. Also, the penalties for contract cancellation are quite small relative to the cost of the contract, and probably not even enforceable if the country has specific laws relating to embargoes.
 

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A commercial contract is not going to prevent an embargo for defence products. We've already seen this exact scenario multiple times. AVL List had already signed the contract for tech support in 2015 but Austria forced it to be cancelled in 2016. Also, the penalties for contract cancellation are quite small relative to the cost of the contract, and probably not even enforceable if the country has specific laws relating to embargoes.
AVL signed a technical assistance contract, not a commercial procurement contract. Both types of contracts come into effect after the company gets an export license from its own country. The contract was terminated by Tümosan after Austria put a lot of strings to the possible export license so AVL didn't cancel the contract but the Tümosan did and SSB canceled the Tümosans contract after Tümosan failed to offer a solution for the transmission.


As I said ultimately it won't prevent embargoes but if Germany embargoes U-214TN you will see HDW paying a billion or two.
 

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How many years has it been? Since project awarded to BMC, since Tank-Palet has been gifted to BMC (along with their rights to rebrand Fırtına II as BMC product) ?
How did Tank-Palet so far helped BMC?
How fair it is that Tank-Palet is being handed over after project is given to BMC? If Otokar or FNSS knew this condition they could have made a better offer, it is for sure.
Since 2018 (the year the tender concluded).
That tank palet would come into play wasn't known by BMC either. The original plan was to manufacture the tank in BMC's new factory in Arifiye. But because of urgent need, tank palet was rented to BMC for 25 years.
The original schedule was to deliver the tank in 45 months (or something in these lines), but with tank palet this was going to shorten. As their Karasu plant was in construction. In the meantime, Turkish government was having talks with German government to solve the issue's regarding engine's. These efforts were still ongoing until at least january of 2021:

Whether that, if Otokar and FNSS knew about the tank palet before hand, that they would give a better offer. I don't know about all that. Tank palet doesn't come for free, BMC has certain obligations regarding the modernization of the facility. This comes with costs as well. Not only that, if Otokar and FNSS's facilities are enough to deploy an Altay mass production line (which I think they probably are), renting tank palet would not have been in their advantage regarding costs. BMC's factory wasn't ready yet, I don't know it's latest status. But it seems that BMC is planning to move all its operations from Izmir to Karasu once the factory is finished: https://www.haberlisin.com/gundem/bmc-izmirden-karasuya-tasinacak-h43574.html

I don't have any personal issues with them, my only issue is that it has been many years and their aggressive profit based stance has damaged numerous strategical projects starting from a Tank which is long needed, to Turbofan, something which they have zero expertise, zero experience, zero personnel about.
You might not like their stratigic stance within the markets they operate in, that is fair enough. But the way you write about BMC, the arguments you use which are mostly irrational, and you ignore all the counterarguments and still repeat your previous stance. All this seem to suggest you have something personal against them, or maybe the root cause could be because of your political opinions. That is what your posts seem to suggest regarding BMC. For instance, you blaim BMC for stuff that either isn't in their control, or are judging them in a harsh way, what you said in the paragraph about IFV's for instance.

Don't take this as a personal attack or something please. I am just writing about how the content of your posts regarding this issue reflect.

We are in 2021, just clearing it out. Every year it is the same, "in 2019", "in 2020" now we are in 2021 in coming months we will start to hear " 2023 it will be directly mass production" and yet we are all waiting but eventually what we get is a very bad mock-up of Altay turret on Leo, and make-up equipments put on the Altay prototypes. They even haven't delivered the promised refined model of Altay after many years.
Delays are frustrating. I get frustrated about this too, lashing out emotionally doesn't help any of us. But we all know by now that the problem is with the procurement of sub-components for the tank. There is no point in blaming the company as they can't help it. The same problems would've occured if Otokar or FNSS won the contract. I would've had the exact same stance if it were these companies that faced the same critisizm as BMC has. As I know the value of all these companies for our country. I won't throw any of them under the bus for ideological or whatever reason. That is why BMC and KOC get critisized with irrational and illogical arguments, purely because of politics. Koc for instance represents us on an international level, I see people wearing Turkish brand products on their shirts (Barcelona shirts with BEKO) here in the Netherlands. Which to be honest, makes me happy and proud.

We are in 2021, just clearing it out. Every year it is the same, "in 2019", "in 2020" now we are in 2021 in coming months we will start to hear " 2023 it will be directly mass production" and yet we are all waiting but eventually what we get is a very bad mock-up of Altay turret on Leo, and make-up equipments put on the Altay prototypes. They even haven't delivered the promised refined model of Altay after many years.
You seem to be grasping at straws just to critisize BMC. I mean what's wrong with mockups? It is all to showcase the concept. All companies do this. Otokar puts actual turrets on, because they are doing field tests (in house, or they recently did one in Kazakshstan). They have a more mature product with that regard. The Altay T1 prototype was supposed to be done in 18 month's, but when this 18 months is supposed to start is unknown. Besides that, we only have 6 engine's in inventory (unless it got replenished), so SSB may have delayed the T1 prototype in order to use these engines or serial production units.

Then how did the negotiations are suddenly continuing after BMC Power has been "withdrawn" from the TRMotor moreover why? Why their presence has been an issue to be resolved more than for a year and finally someone let some words out to the guy on top and he asked BMC Power to step out? They did adversely affect the project because of their connections in SSB and agressive stance to have a place in Turbofan business. Yet,they have failed, gladly.
There was a rumor posted on Financial Times about Rolls Royce objecting to BMC, but this was never confirmed. Maybe this was true, and there was some merit to this rumor. And maybe BMC left TRMotor because of this.

But Ismail Demir (I think I heard it from him in a tv interview, or some other high up official that is involved within the MMU project) said that the problem regarding this was regarding the export rights of the engine. As far as I know, they still haven't come to an agreement with Rolls Royce. The latest I read was that Ismail Demir said they were in talks with Rolls Royce in march of this year:
Source: https://www.savunmasanayist.com/ismail-demir-mmu-rolls-royce-aciklama/
The reason why TAEC (Rolls/Kale JV) wasn't accepted (from article): “Rolls-Royce’un bu uçak için hazır bir motoru yok. Onlar, Türkiye’de kurdukları bir ortaklık ile bu uçak için motor geliştirmeyi teklif ediyorlardı ama o geliştirmenin şartları arasında bizim kabul edemeyeceğimiz 5-6 tane madde vardı."
The article goes on to give updates on where they stand with regards to negotiations with Rolls Royce.

This quote suggests that it's is only financials (rakamsal) that they need to get an agreement on with Rolls Royce: "Bizim açımızdan sorun büyük ölçüde belli bir yere geldi, ondan sonrası da diğer tarafa (Rolls-Royce) bağlı ki yine orada rakamsal bazı konular var onları da gördüğümüzde buna karar vereceğiz. Yani top, karşı sahada.” ifadelerine yer verildi."

from december 2020:


We all know this would casually been done with Tank-Palet ,Aselsan and Roketsan but because Army's factory is now owned by BMC,we did hear BMC. Something has happened and it looks like BMC doesn't seem to be even in first 40. And what has happened there?
Tank palet is not owned by BMC, but it is rented to BMC for 25 years.

Anyway the source in your quote says: "Leopard 2A4 Modernizasyonu Projesi kapsamında BMC, ASELSAN, Roketsan ve firmaları görev almakta olup, ilk etapta 40 adet tankın modernize edilmesi kararlaştırılmıştır. Ancak ilerleyen dönemlerde, bütün Leopard 2A4 tanklarının – yaklaşık 350 adet – modernize edilmesi söz konusudur."

BMC not being in the first 40, is not written in that particular source, the source from your quote contradicts this. You got a different source where it says that BMC is not involved in the first 40?
And its very possible by the way that BMC could not be involved with the first 40. I actually thought that it was only Roketsan/Aselsan that were going to do the first 40. For the rest (about 350) there is a tender where BMC and FNSS are competing.

BMC showcases IFV prototype in 2021 while FNSS Otokar has presented it with a functional turret even offered for export since 5 years and more. FNSS has made country's first IFV, upgraded it. How come we can say BMC is competent along these two companies in the armored-tracked or heavy-armored class? Especially when they are still trying to do something that other two companies have already been doing for 10+ years (8x8), even exporting?

BMC is still crawling, that is it. Being fed with hormones, investments, incentives that neither of the companies are receiving. Their progress despite of this huge support is single proof of their incompetence. FNSS is doing all with the half or even quarter of the funds /incentives given to the BMC.
This is what I was talking about when I said that BMC was treated unfairly with unfair argument in one of my previous paragraphs. Yeah, FNSS and Otokar have more experience and matured products compared to BMC. But making IFV's, LAV's, etc isn't something that is exclusive to FNSS and Otokar. BMC can develop products as it pleases. And just because FNSS and Otokar have more experience, sure you could make the argument that these companies have more experience and therefore more competence than BMC in this regard. I can see the logic behind such an argument. But based on this no one can conclude that BMC is incompetent within this context. When Otokar and FNSS first started with IFV's, when we first saw their vehicles, did you also claim them to be incompetent back then? How long did it take FNSS and Otokar to produce and mature their products? Isn't it unrealistic to expect BMC to already have matured IFV's, even though they first showcased their IFV less than a year ago?

The fact that these companies are trying to develop something that they never developed before should actually be praised and celebrated. This actually shows that they are indeed competent and full of self-confidence. That is what entreprenourship is, entreprenourship is what drives economies forward.

Speculation? Army needs a wheeled IFV urgently for 5 years and more since Altays have failed and deployment at foreign lands has been more intense, it is a fact Kirpis are being used in place of IFV-APCs. Bot FNSS and Otokar make products just as needed, Aselsan /FNSS works on several turrets. Since it has been obvious that Altay is going to be delayed, why the progress haven't been accelerated and awarded to one of the well-known companies for a quick solution? Why should BMC has been waited to develop the 8x8 so that tender can be commenced?
When and where did the armed forces say that they urgently need IFV's for more than 5 years?

I haven't seen a credible source claiming this. I have seen discussions by random people on forums but never seen an actual official from SSB or the army that expressed that there was urgent need. That is why I consider it speculation.

The definition of speculation: "the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence."
Because there is no evidence, i.e. no official saying there is a need or urgent need for IFV's, we can only speculate on the needs of the armed forces regarding IFV's.

Otokar-SSM deal which is made years ago, if there are any news regarding to that it should be around that is telling Otokar is obliged to share technical packages with SSM along with prototypes.
Technical packages refer to design packages, schematics, not to the production-assembly plans, part suppliers or production know-how.
If Otokar is obligated to share technical packages with SSB, than that means that SSB is the owner of the know-how.
 

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That tank palet would come into play wasn't known by BMC either.
This is wrong BMC knew it before the tender. A BMC delegation visited Tank Palet factory before the tender.
 

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This is wrong BMC knew it before the tender. A BMC delegation visited Tank Palet factory before the tender.
When did the BMC delegate visit tank palet and what was the reason for the visit? Do you have a source that provides more details regarding this?
Regarding this, Mete Yarar (when asking Ethem Sancak a question) says that SSB tells all the defence companies to visit all of the companies under ASFAT (check the video for more details at the 36.42 mark, for more details you can start watching a little bit earlier):
The conclusion we can take from this info shared by Mete Yarar is that SSB allows private companies to make use of ASFAT's facilities in order to further develop our military industry as a whole. Share the knowledge and know-how as much as possible. This isn't something that is exclusive to BMC either, which is the whole point behind Mete Yarar asking this question and pointing out this policy by SSB/ASFAT.

Ethem Sancak in Haberturk interview says that they didn't know about Tank Palet before they entered the tender (34.05 minute mark):
To get the full context I recommend watching from 32.15 minute mark, where one of the interviewers asks a question, to which he responds.
 

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When did the BMC delegate visit tank palet and what was the reason for the visit? Do you have a source that provides more details regarding this?
Regarding this, Mete Yarar (when asking Ethem Sancak a question) says that SSB tells all the defence companies to visit all of the companies under ASFAT (check the video for more details at the 36.42 mark, for more details you can start watching a little bit earlier):
The conclusion we can take from this info shared by Mete Yarar is that SSB allows private companies to make use of ASFAT's facilities in order to further develop our military industry as a whole. Share the knowledge and know-how as much as possible. This isn't something that is exclusive to BMC either, which is the whole point behind Mete Yarar asking this question and pointing out this policy by SSB/ASFAT.

Ethem Sancak in Haberturk interview says that they didn't know about Tank Palet before they entered the tender (34.05 minute mark):
To get the full context I recommend watching from 32.15 minute mark, where one of the interviewers asks a question, to which he responds.
One of my acquaintances was in the delegation that visited tank palet.
 

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If Otokar is obligated to share technical packages with SSB, than that means that SSB is the owner of the know-how.
Not at all, know-how and technical packages differ. Know-how is not included in the agreement, that was the reason BMC needed Tank-Palet and tried to lure majority of the engineers from Altay prototype development project. They have failed to lure the most,moreover the core management team.

Tank palet is not owned by BMC, but it is rented to BMC for 25 years.
Selling these words to me? rented for 25 years or given to BMC, or sold to BMC how does it matter? BMC is going to label all Tank-Palet products with "BMC" brand (The way they did with Fırtına II), transfer workers to Karasu factory if they can even manage to launch it, transfer know-how to abroad or sale the blue-prints as they like. The matter is, Tank Palet currently owned by BMC under unknown conditions ( the process is not transparent) . Moreover they are going to add profits onto every job done by Tank Palet, upgrades, repairs everything that naturally would have been profit free now is going to become profit for BMC.

You seem to be grasping at straws just to critisize BMC. I mean what's wrong with mockups?
Compare it to mockups of other companies you may see the difference. To be honest you more seem to be in love with BMC with unkown reasons ,than i hate them for certain reasons.

There was a rumor posted on Financial Times about Rolls Royce objecting to BMC, but this was never confirmed. Maybe this was true, and there was some merit to this rumor. And maybe BMC left TRMotor because of this.

But Ismail Demir (I think I heard it from him in a tv interview, or some other high up official that is involved within the MMU project) said that the problem regarding this was regarding the export rights of the engine. As far as I know, they still haven't come to an agreement with Rolls Royce. The latest I read was that Ismail Demir said they were in talks with Rolls Royce in march of this year:
Source: https://www.savunmasanayist.com/ismail-demir-mmu-rolls-royce-aciklama/
The reason why TAEC (Rolls/Kale JV) wasn't accepted (from article): “Rolls-Royce’un bu uçak için hazır bir motoru yok. Onlar, Türkiye’de kurdukları bir ortaklık ile bu uçak için motor geliştirmeyi teklif ediyorlardı ama o geliştirmenin şartları arasında bizim kabul edemeyeceğimiz 5-6 tane madde vardı."
The article goes on to give updates on where they stand with regards to negotiations with Rolls Royce.

This quote suggests that it's is only financials (rakamsal) that they need to get an agreement on with Rolls Royce: "Bizim açımızdan sorun büyük ölçüde belli bir yere geldi, ondan sonrası da diğer tarafa (Rolls-Royce) bağlı ki yine orada rakamsal bazı konular var onları da gördüğümüzde buna karar vereceğiz. Yani top, karşı sahada.” ifadelerine yer verildi."
Then why BMC had been into TRMotor and then withdrawn upon causing the issues? BMC wasn't supposed to be in TRMotor in the beginning and they emerged suddenly while it was being funded. Back then i have countered this decision but i remember so well that you have been defending it with businesses are naturally behaves agressive to expand, i have told it is going to damage the process and eventually it did. None of the foreign companies (not just RR) has been willing to share know-how or IP rights to the extends we want as long as a Qatari owned and Qatari managed company had been in the company.

This is what I was talking about when I said that BMC was treated unfairly with unfair argument in one of my previous paragraphs. Yeah, FNSS and Otokar have more experience and matured products compared to BMC. But making IFV's, LAV's, etc isn't something that is exclusive to FNSS and Otokar. BMC can develop products as it pleases. And just because FNSS and Otokar have more experience, sure you could make the argument that these companies have more experience and therefore more competence than BMC in this regard. I can see the logic behind such an argument. But based on this no one can conclude that BMC is incompetent within this context. When Otokar and FNSS first started with IFV's, when we first saw their vehicles, did you also claim them to be incompetent back then? How long did it take FNSS and Otokar to produce and mature their products? Isn't it unrealistic to expect BMC to already have matured IFV's, even though they first showcased their IFV less than a year ago?

The fact that these companies are trying to develop something that they never developed before should actually be praised and celebrated. This actually shows that they are indeed competent and full of self-confidence. That is what entreprenourship is, entreprenourship is what drives economies forward.
They can't do the development with the funds, incentives of the state. They have to spare the money from their own unless it is awarded by SSB and the design owned by state. The point is all their income is extra profit they gain from Tank-Palet and huge incentives from state.
When and where did the armed forces say that they urgently need IFV's for more than 5 years?

I haven't seen a credible source claiming this. I have seen discussions by random people on forums but never seen an actual official from SSB or the army that expressed that there was urgent need. That is why I consider it speculation.

The definition of speculation: "the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence."
Because there is no evidence, i.e. no official saying there is a need or urgent need for IFV's, we can only speculate on the needs of the armed forces regarding IFV's.
Read comments of any experts on this matter both Navy and Armed forces had been in needs of an IFV and Armored transport, now both relies on 4x4 for this matter. Since Sancak had acquired he had been delaying this project with his ties, and luckily he has been forced to sell his shares and disappeared to thin air. He was the architect of BMC being in TRMotor, he tried to purchase some shipyards gone bankrupt (sharks of the shipyards didn't let him in), he meanwhile done what has happened to Altay. He knew nothing on the matter, he has massacred.


About the proofs, do you have any single proofs on how BMC has been successful since Altay project, Tank Palet and incentives has been awarded to them?
- They have promised for refined Altay design several years ago? Any clues?
- Foreign engine integration, since the embargoes have been in the effect, (it has been several years) several foreign engine manufacturers have approached, any progresses?
- Fırtına II is wholly product of Tank-Palet, BMC doesn't even have a bolt in it but they bran it as their own.
- Done every means to delay Altay project further solely because of their inexperience and incompetence, even skipped the spare engine option for low rate production and now they have managed to postpone it by 2023 to start it. And we will hear " first Tank will be delivered in 2025". Perfect, and who knows if the Tank will be really out by 2025.
 

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Ethem Sancak in Haberturk interview says that they didn't know about Tank Palet before they entered the tender (34.05 minute mark):
Ofcourse they don't, he wouldn't go into an interview and explicitly say that he has been guaranteed to receive. Otherwise who else is brave enough to appoint for Tank serial production tender with zero experience on the matter. Meanwhile if the all reason to privatize Tank-Palet to develop the industry, why it was not given to FNSS, a company which handles most of the armored modernization of the Land forces? Why it is privatized by a hidden negotiation but not an open tender?
"Transparency" this is what Sancak and BMC had taken from SSB and entire industry suffers from this.
 

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Then why BMC had been into TRMotor and then withdrawn upon causing the issues? BMC wasn't supposed to be in TRMotor in the beginning and they emerged suddenly while it was being funded
my opinion is that most turkish companies should have been connected to each other let it be a money only investment hoding some stakes in stock market, I would welcome some more cooperation

I also would like to have some of our solid firms like Aselsan ,Tai.. to lead and form some education system or programs on school to university because I belive they would come up with a better concept than the government..

so what I say is these companies should work together hand in hand and like one big turkey holding forming the industry and education system

see my text not only for bmc's sudden involvement but more as a genereal statement
 

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Not at all, know-how and technical packages differ. Know-how is not included in the agreement, that was the reason BMC needed Tank-Palet and tried to lure majority of the engineers from Altay prototype development project. They have failed to lure the most,moreover the core management team.
The reason for tank palet was to shorten the schedule for delivery like I explained in one of my previous posts including the source.

Do you have a copy of the agreement? Where it states that know-how was not included? I mean what do you base this on?
How many of the Altay prototype people joined BMC? And what did the rest of them do? To which piece of information do you base this claim on?
Ethem Sancak stated in his Haberturk interview that the team that worked on the Altay prototype, including the general manager of the project joined BMC.
If you have a source to contradict him, then feel free to share.

Selling these words to me? rented for 25 years or given to BMC, or sold to BMC how does it matter? BMC is going to label all Tank-Palet products with "BMC" brand (The way they did with Fırtına II), transfer workers to Karasu factory if they can even manage to launch it, transfer know-how to abroad or sale the blue-prints as they like. The matter is, Tank Palet currently owned by BMC under unknown conditions ( the process is not transparent) . Moreover they are going to add profits onto every job done by Tank Palet, upgrades, repairs everything that naturally would have been profit free now is going to become profit for BMC.
"Transfer the know-how to abroad and sell the blue prints as they like" How are you so certain when writing this? What do you base this on? Aren't you just slandering them now? The Firtina 2, Altay, etc are all property of SSB, they own the rights of it. If SSB owns the rights then how is BMC allowed to sell its blueprints and know-how to a third party? It could happen illegally, but that can happen to any company. A couple of years ago an MKEK employee tried to sell the blueprints of MPT, and MKE is a state run organization, corporate espionage can happen to anyone.

Yes, BMC will make profit and/or loss out of tank palet. That is the whole idea, otherwise BMC would not agree to upgrade and invest in the facility. So naturally all the costs and profits and/or losses will be for BMC to bare. Everything that comes out of tank palet getting a BMC logo on it, that is possible, tank palet is under BMC's management after all.

And so what if it will have a BMC logo on it? Why does that even matter? Not sure why you are so obsessed about this, you claim you don't have any hatred towards BMC but the things you write suggest otherwise. I personally don't care if it has a BMC, FNSS, Otokar, etc logo on it or not. As I consider all these firms to be ours and I am proud of all of them and hold them in high esteem.

Compare it to mockups of other companies you may see the difference. To be honest you more seem to be in love with BMC with unkown reasons ,than i hate them for certain reasons.
I love BMC, that is correct but I also love FNSS, Otokar and other companies as well. I consider BMC to be one of our most strategic companies together with FNSS, Otokar, TAI, TEI, Baykar, Durmazlar, Ermaksan, Ulker, Koc, Alarko, etc. The reason I love all these companies is because we have seen a few times in our history where we lost as a country for the long term like the Anadol and Devrim cars, Nuri Demirag, Vecihi Hurkus, Nuri Killigil and probably a few more that we never heard the name of. We can't afford to throw BMC or any of our companies under a bus, just because of some stupid political or ideological agenda's.

That is why I am wholehardedly support things like incentives and subsidies towards companies and economy as a whole, all companies within the industry to be connected in order to supply and supplement each other, sharing of know-how etc. A coordination under SSB in the case of the defence industry is working out pretty well for the industry. What I hope is they would extend this succes to other industries as well.

Then why BMC had been into TRMotor and then withdrawn upon causing the issues? BMC wasn't supposed to be in TRMotor in the beginning and they emerged suddenly while it was being funded. Back then i have countered this decision but i remember so well that you have been defending it with businesses are naturally behaves agressive to expand, i have told it is going to damage the process and eventually it did. None of the foreign companies (not just RR) has been willing to share know-how or IP rights to the extends we want as long as a Qatari owned and Qatari managed company had been in the company.
The issue's that was cited by R&R stemming from BMC's involvement was a rumor. Maybe this is true, maybe not. I am not aware of any information out there that either confirms or denies this. BMC could've have left TRMotor for this reason, or there could be some other reason. The reason for this hasn't been disclosed (as far as I know). The main point of contention with R&R was regarding the export rights of the engine according to Ismail Demir. I am sure there were other points of contention and one of these could have been BMC's involvement, but this was a rumor and never confirmed.

When I analyzed BMC's strategy, it was BMC's strategy as a whole not just it's move with TRMotor. You blame BMC for delays on the MMU engine, but if you do want someone to blame, then blame SSB as it is under their supervision and coordination.

They can't do the development with the funds, incentives of the state. They have to spare the money from their own unless it is awarded by SSB and the design owned by state. The point is all their income is extra profit they gain from Tank-Palet and huge incentives from state.
Why not? That is the whole point of funding and incentives. The government imploys state funding and/or incentives for various reasons. In the case of Turkey, the government coordinates funding and incentives in order to either produce products to achieve strategic independance (military, energy, food, medicine), guarantee food security, lower and close the account deficit (cari acik), create job oppertunities, gain know-how, Foreign Direct Investment (FDI), etc. That is why I wholehardedly support incentives and funding.

Read comments of any experts on this matter both Navy and Armed forces had been in needs of an IFV and Armored transport, now both relies on 4x4 for this matter. Since Sancak had acquired he had been delaying this project with his ties, and luckily he has been forced to sell his shares and disappeared to thin air. He was the architect of BMC being in TRMotor, he tried to purchase some shipyards gone bankrupt (sharks of the shipyards didn't let him in), he meanwhile done what has happened to Altay. He knew nothing on the matter, he has massacred.
Do you have any sources regarding these claims?

The expert views on the matter of IFV's are the opinions of themselves. However we haven't seen SSB or the military take steps towards acquiring IFV's nor have they stated that the military is in need of these types of vehicles. On top of that, FNSS did sell 100 anti-tank 6x6 vehicles. This means that if the need arises for these types of vehicles then the military doesn't shy away of taking steps to acquire such vehicles.

About the proofs, do you have any single proofs on how BMC has been successful since Altay project, Tank Palet and incentives has been awarded to them?
- They have promised for refined Altay design several years ago? Any clues?
- Foreign engine integration, since the embargoes have been in the effect, (it has been several years) several foreign engine manufacturers have approached, any progresses?
- Fırtına II is wholly product of Tank-Palet, BMC doesn't even have a bolt in it but they bran it as their own.
- Done every means to delay Altay project further solely because of their inexperience and incompetence, even skipped the spare engine option for low rate production and now they have managed to postpone it by 2023 to start it. And we will hear " first Tank will be delivered in 2025". Perfect, and who knows if the Tank will be really out by 2025.
Yeah, the proof is that SSB awarded BMC the project. And SSB has an impecible track record on how to handle projects.
- The Altay T1 (the refined Altay) prototype was supposed to be done in 18 month's, but when this 18 months is supposed to start is unknown. Besides that, we only have 6 engine's in inventory (unless it got replenished), so SSB may have delayed the T1 prototype in order to use these engines or serial production units.
- The source about the potential Korean engine's that I posted in one of my previous posts in the last few pages of this thread. As well as 6 engine's in invetory, BATU looking to be integrated in 2024, and Ismail Demir stating that there are B and C plans regarding the engines.
- Prabably, or maybe not. I'm fine with it in either case, because in either case it is ours.
- Altay mass production has started and first tank is scheduled to roll out in 2023 (I wrote the source in one of my previous posts on the last two pages of this thread). How are you so sure that it is BMC that delayed it? Do you have a source for this? It's probably SSB that delayed it, as SSB is the one that coordinates the project. Maybe SSB delayed it in order for BATU engine to be ready by the time MTU engine (5 to 6) Altay's roll out of the assembly line. Or maybe Korean engine's will come to play after the first 5 tanks until BATU is ready. Ismail Demir did say they had plans B and C. He didn't disclose these plans including plan A, so all I can do is speculate. That's why I used the word maybe in my sentences.

Ofcourse they don't, he wouldn't go into an interview and explicitly say that he has been guaranteed to receive. Otherwise who else is brave enough to appoint for Tank serial production tender with zero experience on the matter. Meanwhile if the all reason to privatize Tank-Palet to develop the industry, why it was not given to FNSS, a company which handles most of the armored modernization of the Land forces? Why it is privatized by a hidden negotiation but not an open tender?
"Transparency" this is what Sancak and BMC had taken from SSB and entire industry suffers from this.
BMC's Sakarya plant was scheduled to be finished in 4 years (started in 2018 or 2019). That's why tank palet came into play in order to speed up the process of mass producing Altay. Tank palet was a pragmatic solution. The original schedule for Altay was 56 months but because of urgent needs they dropped this to 24 months with tank palet. But then the whole engine embargo couldn't be solved so it got delayed until now. Why wasn't it given to FNSS? Because FNSS hasn't gotten the tender of Altay. There was no open tender regarding tank palet, because there wouldn't be a point of giving tank palet to either Otokar or FNSS, since it is BMC that won the tender for Altay mass production and the reason behind tank palet was to speed up the proces of Altay production.

How transparent do you expect it to be? We know that BMC is going to get tank palet for 25 years, at the cost of BMC modernizing the facility for 50 million USD, where BMC will also mass produce Altay, where ASFAT will vet all the employees and people entering the facility, etc. That is all the information we as the public need. Anything extra is not really relevant to us.
Also consider this, why is transparency all of a sudden an issue on this? SSB has countless other projects where transparency isn't questioned. It is up to SSB if it wants to award projects to companies outright or have a tender first, this is all under SSB's own discretion. Military has certain needs and demands regarding military products, in order to achieve the demands in the final products SSB evaluates it and chooses the procurement and project method accordingly.

Regarding Ethem Sancak's interview answer. It's fine if you don't believe him. That is fair enough. But it can also be a slippery slope, where someone selects the information that supports their opinions and ignores information that are contrary to their opinions.
 
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Anmdt

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The reason for tank palet was to shorten the schedule for delivery like I explained in one of my previous posts including the source.

Do you have a copy of the agreement? Where it states that know-how was not included? I mean what do you base this on?
How many of the Altay prototype people joined BMC? And what did the rest of them do? To which piece of information do you base this claim on?
Ethem Sancak stated in his Haberturk interview that the team that worked on the Altay prototype, including the general manager of the project joined BMC.
If you have a source to contradict him, then feel free to share.


"Transfer the know-how to abroad and sell the blue prints as they like" How are you so certain when writing this? What do you base this on? Aren't you just slandering them now? The Firtina 2, Altay, etc are all property of SSB, they own the rights of it. If SSB owns the rights then how is BMC allowed to sell its blueprints and know-how to a third party? It could happen illegally, but that can happen to any company. A couple of years ago an MKEK employee tried to sell the blueprints of MPT, and MKE is a state run organization, corporate espionage can happen to anyone.

Yes, BMC will make profit and/or loss out of tank palet. That is the whole idea, otherwise BMC would not agree to upgrade and invest in the facility. So naturally all the costs and profits and/or losses will be for BMC to bare. Everything that comes out of tank palet getting a BMC logo on it, that is possible, tank palet is under BMC's management after all.

And so what if it will have a BMC logo on it? Why does that even matter? Not sure why you are so obsessed about this, you claim you don't have any hatred towards BMC but the things you write suggest otherwise. I personally don't care if it has a BMC, FNSS, Otokar, etc logo on it or not. As I consider all these firms to be ours and I am proud of all of them and hold them in high esteem.


I love BMC, that is correct but I also love FNSS, Otokar and other companies as well. I consider BMC to be one of our most strategic companies together with FNSS, Otokar, TAI, TEI, Baykar, Durmazlar, Ermaksan, Ulker, Koc, Alarko, etc. The reason I love all these companies is because we have seen a few times in our history where we lost as a country for the long term like the Anadol and Devrim cars, Nuri Demirag, Vecihi Hurkus, Nuri Killigil and probably a few more that we never heard the name of. We can't afford to throw BMC or any of our companies under a bus, just because of some stupid political or ideological agenda's.

That is why I am wholehardedly support things like incentives and subsidies towards companies and economy as a whole, all companies within the industry to be connected in order to supply and supplement each other, sharing of know-how etc. A coordination under SSB in the case of the defence industry is working out pretty well for the industry. What I hope is they would extend this succes to other industries as well.


The issue's that was cited by R&R stemming from BMC's involvement was a rumor. Maybe this is true, maybe not. I am not aware of any information out there that either confirms or denies this. BMC could've have left TRMotor for this reason, or there could be some other reason. The reason for this hasn't been disclosed (as far as I know). The main point of contention with R&R was regarding the export rights of the engine according to Ismail Demir. I am sure there were other points of contention and one of these could have been BMC's involvement, but this was a rumor and never confirmed.

When I analyzed BMC's strategy, it was BMC's strategy as a whole not just it's move with TRMotor. You blame BMC for delays on the MMU engine, but if you do want someone to blame, then blame SSB as it is under their supervision and coordination.


Why not? That is the whole point of funding and incentives. The government imploys state funding and/or incentives for various reasons. In the case of Turkey, the government coordinates funding and incentives in order to either produce products to achieve strategic independance (military, energy, food, medicine), guarantee food security, lower and close the account deficit (cari acik), create job oppertunities, gain know-how, Foreign Direct Investment (FDI), etc. That is why I wholehardedly support incentives and funding.


Do you have any sources regarding these claims?

The expert views on the matter of IFV's are the opinions of themselves. However we haven't seen SSB or the military take steps towards acquiring IFV's nor have they stated that the military is in need of these types of vehicles. On top of that, FNSS did sell 100 anti-tank 6x6 vehicles. This means that if the need arises for these types of vehicles then the military doesn't shy away of taking steps to acquire such vehicles.


Yeah, the proof is that SSB awarded BMC the project. And SSB has an impecible track record on how to handle projects.
- The Altay T1 (the refined Altay) prototype was supposed to be done in 18 month's, but when this 18 months is supposed to start is unknown. Besides that, we only have 6 engine's in inventory (unless it got replenished), so SSB may have delayed the T1 prototype in order to use these engines or serial production units.
- The source about the potential Korean engine's that I posted in one of my previous posts in the last few pages of this thread. As well as 6 engine's in invetory, BATU looking to be integrated in 2024, and Ismail Demir stating that there are B and C plans regarding the engines.
- Prabably, or maybe not. I'm fine with it in either case, because in either case it is ours.
- Altay mass production has started and first tank is scheduled to roll out in 2023 (I wrote the source in one of my previous posts on the last two pages of this thread). How are you so sure that it is BMC that delayed it? Do you have a source for this? It's probably SSB that delayed it, as SSB is the one that coordinates the project. Maybe SSB delayed it in order for BATU engine to be ready by the time MTU engine (5 to 6) Altay's roll out of the assembly line. Or maybe Korean engine's will come to play after the first 5 tanks until BATU is ready. Ismail Demir did say they had plans B and C. He didn't disclose these plans including plan A, so all I can do is speculate. That's why I used the word maybe in my sentences.


BMC's Sakarya plant was scheduled to be finished in 4 years (started in 2018 or 2019). That's why tank palet came into play in order to speed up the process of mass producing Altay. Tank palet was a pragmatic solution. The original schedule for Altay was 56 months but because of urgent needs they dropped this to 24 months with tank palet. But then the whole engine embargo couldn't be solved so it got delayed until now. Why wasn't it given to FNSS? Because FNSS hasn't gotten the tender of Altay. There was no open tender regarding tank palet, because there wouldn't be a point of giving tank palet to either Otokar or FNSS, since it is BMC that won the tender for Altay mass production and the reason behind tank palet was to speed up the proces of Altay production.

How transparent do you expect it to be? We know that BMC is going to get tank palet for 25 years, at the cost of BMC modernizing the facility for 50 million USD, where BMC will also mass produce Altay, where ASFAT will vet all the employees and people entering the facility, etc. That is all the information we as the public need. Anything extra is not really relevant to us.
Also consider this, why is transparency all of a sudden an issue on this? SSB has countless other projects where transparency isn't questioned. It is up to SSB if it wants to award projects to companies outright or have a tender first, this is all under SSB's own discretion. Military has certain needs and demands regarding military products, in order to achieve the demands in the final products SSB evaluates it and chooses the procurement and project method accordingly.

Regarding Ethem Sancak's interview answer. It's fine if you don't believe him. That is fair enough. But it can also be a slippery slope, where someone selects the information that supports their opinions and ignores information that are contrary to their opinions.

Even if i have a copy why should i share it here? The thing has been spoken as i have told by officials once upon a time when the deal is made with Otokar.

You still can not make any solid claims for Tank-Palet, it is not too hard to accept it ks gifted to BMC, to be honest i didn't give any possibilities of privitazing military shipyard to a private shipyard to accelerate production, how does this make sense to you that Tank Palet is being given to BMC for this cause? If a company makes an offer for a tender isnt it their own business to complete it like TAI, Baykar, FNSS, Otokar, Aselsan, Roketsan do?. For example HGK is being manufactured by Asfat to accelerate production rate, but the factory is not being given to SAGE or Aselsan.

Extreme incentived are not being given to other companies but to only BMC, this much funding has not been granted for FNSS or any other company i have known. Even Baykar, who does a lot more solid jobs and displays it more transparently, even TAI who makes a jet.

We are on 5th year and counting on when that '18 months' is going to start, does this seem logical to you? How can this fit into the schedule even when the starting date is up to a company? The foreign engines are on table for 2 years and what has been done so far?

Foreigners don't trust in BMC's foreigner owner, that is it. R&R deal is not solely about this, BMC Power's presence had stalled the process and to be honest you couldn't counter this argument but only calling it rumors. If it was so, how come TF-X project altogether accelerated once BMC Power has stepped out?

The best we can do wait another 2 years and see if BMC has done anything.The discussion is pointless, because you can not post any solid claims to support BMC stance on this matter, because they are not being transparent at all this blurry project even make BMC supporter not be able to post solid claims fo defend their views. While protoypes are being developed the process was much more clearer and transparent to public at every step.

So as the public, best we can do is wait. So far yoi have been unreliable on this mtter, few years ago you have supported BMC will follow schedule thanks to Tank Palet, yearz passed and it didn't happen, for the jet engine you have supported that BMC will be beneficial for the project and may have the expertice, they have been forced to leave. And here i am going to wait another 2 year if BMC is ever will be able to roll another tank else than the prototype they have got from Otokar.
 

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Even if i have a copy why should i share it here? The thing has been spoken as i have told by officials once upon a time when the deal is made with Otokar.

You still can not make any solid claims for Tank-Palet, it is not too hard to accept it ks gifted to BMC, to be honest i didn't give any possibilities of privitazing military shipyard to a private shipyard to accelerate production, how does this make sense to you that Tank Palet is being given to BMC for this cause? If a company makes an offer for a tender isnt it their own business to complete it like TAI, Baykar, FNSS, Otokar, Aselsan, Roketsan do?. For example HGK is being manufactured by Asfat to accelerate production rate, but the factory is not being given to SAGE or Aselsan.

Extreme incentived are not being given to other companies but to only BMC, this much funding has not been granted for FNSS or any other company i have known. Even Baykar, who does a lot more solid jobs and displays it more transparently, even TAI who makes a jet.

We are on 5th year and counting on when that '18 months' is going to start, does this seem logical to you? How can this fit into the schedule even when the starting date is up to a company? The foreign engines are on table for 2 years and what has been done so far?

Foreigners don't trust in BMC's foreigner owner, that is it. R&R deal is not solely about this, BMC Power's presence had stalled the process and to be honest you couldn't counter this argument but only calling it rumors. If it was so, how come TF-X project altogether accelerated once BMC Power has stepped out?

The best we can do wait another 2 years and see if BMC has done anything.The discussion is pointless, because you can not post any solid claims to support BMC stance on this matter, because they are not being transparent at all this blurry project even make BMC supporter not be able to post solid claims fo defend their views. While protoypes are being developed the process was much more clearer and transparent to public at every step.

So as the public, best we can do is wait. So far yoi have been unreliable on this mtter, few years ago you have supported BMC will follow schedule thanks to Tank Palet, yearz passed and it didn't happen, for the jet engine you have supported that BMC will be beneficial for the project and may have the expertice, they have been forced to leave. And here i am going to wait another 2 year if BMC is ever will be able to roll another tank else than the prototype they have got from Otokar.
They won't. Neither will the company exist in its current form from 2023 onward.
And the same people will be silent or vanish when the dirt is dug up.

If Karma exist the project would be handed over back to Otokar.

Imagine thinking the former owner sold his shares out of fun. Why now? Why not years ago?
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Even if i have a copy why should i share it here? The thing has been spoken as i have told by officials once upon a time when the deal is made with Otokar.
In order to confirm the information being true and whether we interpreted the information correctly. Otherwise anyone can make wild claims, but in that we would only be shooting ourselves in the foot.

You still can not make any solid claims for Tank-Palet, it is not too hard to accept it ks gifted to BMC, to be honest i didn't give any possibilities of privitazing military shipyard to a private shipyard to accelerate production, how does this make sense to you that Tank Palet is being given to BMC for this cause? If a company makes an offer for a tender isnt it their own business to complete it like TAI, Baykar, FNSS, Otokar, Aselsan, Roketsan do?. For example HGK is being manufactured by Asfat to accelerate production rate, but the factory is not being given to SAGE or Aselsan.
Well, you have been making solid claims citing corruption and dirty dealings, which only serves as slander and doesnt further the argument. All your claims are due to conjecture and political propaganda, no matter how many sources I cite. All the claims I have been making are based on sources that I provided within my posts, or deductive reasoning where I explained how I came to that notion. I (at least) try to be responsible when I write my posts. Your posts, on the other hand, just seem to want to throw BMC under a bus.
I have explained the schedule of Altay before, the initial schedule was supposed to be 56 months. But because of urgent need SSB wanted it to be 24 months, in order for this to happen tank palet was made available as BMC's factory is still in construction (scheduled to be done in 4 years, started in 2018 or 2019). And yeah, I know you will say, 2 years later we still haven't seen anything yet, but then I will cite the whole engine issue again.

Extreme incentived are not being given to other companies but to only BMC, this much funding has not been granted for FNSS or any other company i have known. Even Baykar, who does a lot more solid jobs and displays it more transparently, even TAI who makes a jet.
There are 34 projects that received super incentives, and an update regarding the progress on some of them:

TUSAS (TAI) wind tunnel and MMU projects are also within the scope of super incentives, among others.

There may be funding involved in some of these projects (I'm sure if we were do dig, we could find some that got fundings), but most are incentives (meaning the companies involved will be able to reap the benefits like tax cuts, etc. once the project is finished).

We are on 5th year and counting on when that '18 months' is going to start, does this seem logical to you? How can this fit into the schedule even when the starting date is up to a company? The foreign engines are on table for 2 years and what has been done so far?
I had already explained this. There are only 6 engine's within the inventory. One will probably be used as a spare, according to Ismail Demir. That leaves only 5 to 6 tanks. If you haven't guaranteed delivery of new engine's, then what is going to happen with the tank assembly line? Just sit idle? That comes with costs. So the serial production of the first 5 to 6 engine's must be scheduled in such a way so that the transfer to BATU or potential Korean engine's will be seemless. This whole issue wasn't just about engine's by the way, transmission was also a factor. In other words, the scheduling for the start of the serial production needs to be done according to all these factors. That is why SSB director Ismail Demir talked about that they have plan's A, B and C ready. They plan for multiple different contingencies.

Foreigners don't trust in BMC's foreigner owner, that is it. R&R deal is not solely about this, BMC Power's presence had stalled the process and to be honest you couldn't counter this argument but only calling it rumors. If it was so, how come TF-X project altogether accelerated once BMC Power has stepped out?
Counter it? There is nothing to counter. It's a rumor. Like I said, maybe it's true, maybe not. I keep it level headed and take any rumor with a grain of salt. Sure it's possible that RR made the presence of BMC a problem, I think this might be the case as well by the way. However, this rumor hasn't been confirmed as far as I know, so I can't speak in absolutes. Along with that as well, Ismail Demir himself stated that the main point of contention was regarding the rights of the engine, in one of the previous posts I had posted a source where it stated that it's only about financials at this point regarding the deal with RR. So we might see a deal anounced at IDEF.

The engine project for the MMU hasn't been delayed by the way. The idea is to make a local engine, the determination is there, it will only take a minute. But with RR's help they hope to reduce the time table. I heard this in an interview with a senior executive, I think it was either Osman Dur or Ismail Demir, could also have been with Temel Kotil. So do your own research on this one, as I might be misremembering it.

The best we can do wait another 2 years and see if BMC has done anything.The discussion is pointless, because you can not post any solid claims to support BMC stance on this matter, because they are not being transparent at all this blurry project even make BMC supporter not be able to post solid claims fo defend their views. While protoypes are being developed the process was much more clearer and transparent to public at every step.
I have been posting everthing with sources, or deductive reasoning where I explain how I came to that conclusion. The content of your posts don't really rest on anything tangible though, especially since it repeats the same things over again. Besides that it highly suggest to be politically motivated.

And yeah, the best we can do is be patient and hope that everything will go smoothly. However, we also got to consider Murphy's Law: "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong."

So as the public, best we can do is wait. So far yoi have been unreliable on this mtter, few years ago you have supported BMC will follow schedule thanks to Tank Palet, yearz passed and it didn't happen, for the jet engine you have supported that BMC will be beneficial for the project and may have the expertice, they have been forced to leave. And here i am going to wait another 2 year if BMC is ever will be able to roll another tank else than the prototype they have got from Otokar.
Are you sure I said those things? Quote the posts where I said those things in order to make sure we fully understood what I said and in what context I said it in.

I try notr to speak in absolutes when it comes to projects and it's schedules. The best I probably did was to explain the roadmap and schedule and hope that everything goes smoothly. I am aware that many things can go wrong, especially in big projects like this, and tend to keep this in mind when writing. And it's not the first time I quoted Murphy's Law either.
 

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ALTAY Tank Fire Control and Electronic Systems
For the tanks to be produced within the scope of the ALTAY Mass Production Project, it is planned that ASELSAN will provide the Fire Control System, Electrical Gun and Turret Drive System, Command Control Communication and Information System, Driver Vision System, Laser Warning System, Remote Controlled Weapon System, Battlefield Target Identification System, Situational Awareness System, AKKOR Active Protection System, Embedded Training Simulator and user/maintenance training tools for these products. Studies for updating the sub-systems to be provided within the scope of the project, taking into account the developing technological capabilities, were successfully carried out in the 2020 operating period.

Modernization of Main Battle Tanks
In tank modernization projects, ASELSAN replaces existing systems in tanks with newly developed state-of-the-art systems while bringing tanks an incomparable advantage in performance with improved capabilities and low life cycle costs when compared to other main battle tanks around the world. With its experience and state-of-the-art tank modernization solutions, ASELSAN takes on the role of a leading company in heavyclass tank modernizations (Leopard1, Leopard2, M60) and light-class tank modernizations (T-72).

Modernization of FIRAT-M60T
As part of the FIRAT-M60T Project, which is being carried out to protect the main battle tanks more effectively against anti-tank threats and terrorist elements and to bring additional capabilities to existing systems, the modernization of many M60T tanks was completed in less than a year. The M60TM tanks modernized by ASELSAN formed the backbone of the Olive Branch, Euphrates Shield and Peace Spring Operations, and were highly successful at all levels of the operations. As a part of M60T modernization, one of the most modern M60 tanks in the world has been acquired and the capabilities for both close-to-mid range firing capability, near-to-far range survivability and defensive features, as well as the capabilities for the maintainability of tanks and personnel, were increased to higher levels.

VOLKAN-M Fire Control System was developed nationally by ASELSAN in order to facilitate the service/ maintenance activities of the Fire Control System of the M60TM Tank and to reduce foreign dependency. The first firing tests of the VOLKAN-M Fire Control System were successfully carried out.

The qualification tests of the PULAT Active Protection System, which aims to protect our tanks from anti-tank attacks, were successfully completed. The tanks whose PULAT integration has been completed are now actively used in the field. Thus, it makes Turkey one of the 3 countries in the world that use the active protection system under combat conditions.

Within the scope of increasing the protection level of Leopard 2A4 tanks against anti-tank threats, tests of armour package solutions were completed. In this regard, the first batch of tanks was made available to the Turkish Armed Forces.
 

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Lol Altay is so late that Aselsan has to update the complete FCS and electronic package.

On the flipside, if Altay wasn't late (because of external factors) Turkey would have had tanks that were already outdated as they left the production line. Akkor integration into Altay's defensive suite is crucial. So, yes they haven't sat on their hands doing nada. Altay is progressively being improved upon while Turkish powerpack is being developed.
 

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On the flipside, if Altay wasn't late (because of external factors) Turkey would have had tanks that were already outdated as they left the production line. Akkor integration into Altay's defensive suite is crucial. So, yes they haven't sat on their hands doing nada. Altay is progressively being improved upon while Turkish powerpack is being developed.
Better late than half baked.
 
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GoatsMilk

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I just hope when all is said and done this "altay episode" isnt talked about internationally jokingly as the indian Arjun tank is. Altay has already garnered the reputation for a failing project, lets hope it doesn't turn into a global joke about the Turkish defence industry.
 
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