Not at all, know-how and technical packages differ. Know-how is not included in the agreement, that was the reason BMC needed Tank-Palet and tried to lure majority of the engineers from Altay prototype development project. They have failed to lure the most,moreover the core management team.
The reason for tank palet was to shorten the schedule for delivery like I explained in one of my previous posts including the source.
Do you have a copy of the agreement? Where it states that know-how was not included? I mean what do you base this on?
How many of the Altay prototype people joined BMC? And what did the rest of them do? To which piece of information do you base this claim on?
Ethem Sancak stated in his Haberturk interview that the team that worked on the Altay prototype, including the general manager of the project joined BMC.
If you have a source to contradict him, then feel free to share.
Selling these words to me? rented for 25 years or given to BMC, or sold to BMC how does it matter? BMC is going to label all Tank-Palet products with "BMC" brand (The way they did with Fırtına II), transfer workers to Karasu factory if they can even manage to launch it, transfer know-how to abroad or sale the blue-prints as they like. The matter is, Tank Palet currently owned by BMC under unknown conditions ( the process is not transparent) . Moreover they are going to add profits onto every job done by Tank Palet, upgrades, repairs everything that naturally would have been profit free now is going to become profit for BMC.
"Transfer the know-how to abroad and sell the blue prints as they like" How are you so certain when writing this? What do you base this on? Aren't you just slandering them now? The Firtina 2, Altay, etc are all property of SSB, they own the rights of it. If SSB owns the rights then how is BMC allowed to sell its blueprints and know-how to a third party? It could happen illegally, but that can happen to any company. A couple of years ago an MKEK employee tried to sell the blueprints of MPT, and MKE is a state run organization, corporate espionage can happen to anyone.
Yes, BMC will make profit and/or loss out of tank palet. That is the whole idea, otherwise BMC would not agree to upgrade and invest in the facility. So naturally all the costs and profits and/or losses will be for BMC to bare. Everything that comes out of tank palet getting a BMC logo on it, that is possible, tank palet is under BMC's management after all.
And so what if it will have a BMC logo on it? Why does that even matter? Not sure why you are so obsessed about this, you claim you don't have any hatred towards BMC but the things you write suggest otherwise. I personally don't care if it has a BMC, FNSS, Otokar, etc logo on it or not. As I consider all these firms to be ours and I am proud of all of them and hold them in high esteem.
Compare it to mockups of other companies you may see the difference. To be honest you more seem to be in love with BMC with unkown reasons ,than i hate them for certain reasons.
I love BMC, that is correct but I also love FNSS, Otokar and other companies as well. I consider BMC to be one of our most strategic companies together with FNSS, Otokar, TAI, TEI, Baykar, Durmazlar, Ermaksan, Ulker, Koc, Alarko, etc. The reason I love all these companies is because we have seen a few times in our history where we lost as a country for the long term like the Anadol and Devrim cars, Nuri Demirag, Vecihi Hurkus, Nuri Killigil and probably a few more that we never heard the name of. We can't afford to throw BMC or any of our companies under a bus, just because of some stupid political or ideological agenda's.
That is why I am wholehardedly support things like incentives and subsidies towards companies and economy as a whole, all companies within the industry to be connected in order to supply and supplement each other, sharing of know-how etc. A coordination under SSB in the case of the defence industry is working out pretty well for the industry. What I hope is they would extend this succes to other industries as well.
Then why BMC had been into TRMotor and then withdrawn upon causing the issues? BMC wasn't supposed to be in TRMotor in the beginning and they emerged suddenly while it was being funded. Back then i have countered this decision but i remember so well that you have been defending it with businesses are naturally behaves agressive to expand, i have told it is going to damage the process and eventually it did. None of the foreign companies (not just RR) has been willing to share know-how or IP rights to the extends we want as long as a Qatari owned and Qatari managed company had been in the company.
The issue's that was cited by R&R stemming from BMC's involvement was a rumor. Maybe this is true, maybe not. I am not aware of any information out there that either confirms or denies this. BMC could've have left TRMotor for this reason, or there could be some other reason. The reason for this hasn't been disclosed (as far as I know). The main point of contention with R&R was regarding the export rights of the engine according to Ismail Demir. I am sure there were other points of contention and one of these could have been BMC's involvement, but this was a rumor and never confirmed.
When I analyzed BMC's strategy, it was BMC's strategy as a whole not just it's move with TRMotor. You blame BMC for delays on the MMU engine, but if you do want someone to blame, then blame SSB as it is under their supervision and coordination.
They can't do the development with the funds, incentives of the state. They have to spare the money from their own unless it is awarded by SSB and the design owned by state. The point is all their income is extra profit they gain from Tank-Palet and huge incentives from state.
Why not? That is the whole point of funding and incentives. The government imploys state funding and/or incentives for various reasons. In the case of Turkey, the government coordinates funding and incentives in order to either produce products to achieve strategic independance (military, energy, food, medicine), guarantee food security, lower and close the account deficit (cari acik), create job oppertunities, gain know-how, Foreign Direct Investment (FDI), etc. That is why I wholehardedly support incentives and funding.
Read comments of any experts on this matter both Navy and Armed forces had been in needs of an IFV and Armored transport, now both relies on 4x4 for this matter. Since Sancak had acquired he had been delaying this project with his ties, and luckily he has been forced to sell his shares and disappeared to thin air. He was the architect of BMC being in TRMotor, he tried to purchase some shipyards gone bankrupt (sharks of the shipyards didn't let him in), he meanwhile done what has happened to Altay. He knew nothing on the matter, he has massacred.
Do you have any sources regarding these claims?
The expert views on the matter of IFV's are the opinions of themselves. However we haven't seen SSB or the military take steps towards acquiring IFV's nor have they stated that the military is in need of these types of vehicles. On top of that, FNSS did sell 100 anti-tank 6x6 vehicles. This means that if the need arises for these types of vehicles then the military doesn't shy away of taking steps to acquire such vehicles.
About the proofs, do you have any single proofs on how BMC has been successful since Altay project, Tank Palet and incentives has been awarded to them?
- They have promised for refined Altay design several years ago? Any clues?
- Foreign engine integration, since the embargoes have been in the effect, (it has been several years) several foreign engine manufacturers have approached, any progresses?
- Fırtına II is wholly product of Tank-Palet, BMC doesn't even have a bolt in it but they bran it as their own.
- Done every means to delay Altay project further solely because of their inexperience and incompetence, even skipped the spare engine option for low rate production and now they have managed to postpone it by 2023 to start it. And we will hear " first Tank will be delivered in 2025". Perfect, and who knows if the Tank will be really out by 2025.
Yeah, the proof is that SSB awarded BMC the project. And SSB has an impecible track record on how to handle projects.
- The Altay T1 (the refined Altay) prototype was supposed to be done in 18 month's, but when this 18 months is supposed to start is unknown. Besides that, we only have 6 engine's in inventory (unless it got replenished), so SSB may have delayed the T1 prototype in order to use these engines or serial production units.
- The source about the potential Korean engine's that I posted in one of my previous posts in the last few pages of this thread. As well as 6 engine's in invetory, BATU looking to be integrated in 2024, and Ismail Demir stating that there are B and C plans regarding the engines.
- Prabably, or maybe not. I'm fine with it in either case, because in either case it is ours.
- Altay mass production has started and first tank is scheduled to roll out in 2023 (I wrote the source in one of my previous posts on the last two pages of this thread). How are you so sure that it is BMC that delayed it? Do you have a source for this? It's probably SSB that delayed it, as SSB is the one that coordinates the project. Maybe SSB delayed it in order for BATU engine to be ready by the time MTU engine (5 to 6) Altay's roll out of the assembly line. Or maybe Korean engine's will come to play after the first 5 tanks until BATU is ready. Ismail Demir did say they had plans B and C. He didn't disclose these plans including plan A, so all I can do is speculate. That's why I used the word maybe in my sentences.
Ofcourse they don't, he wouldn't go into an interview and explicitly say that he has been guaranteed to receive. Otherwise who else is brave enough to appoint for Tank serial production tender with zero experience on the matter. Meanwhile if the all reason to privatize Tank-Palet to develop the industry, why it was not given to FNSS, a company which handles most of the armored modernization of the Land forces? Why it is privatized by a hidden negotiation but not an open tender?
"Transparency" this is what Sancak and BMC had taken from SSB and entire industry suffers from this.
BMC's Sakarya plant was scheduled to be finished in 4 years (started in 2018 or 2019). That's why tank palet came into play in order to speed up the process of mass producing Altay. Tank palet was a pragmatic solution. The original schedule for Altay was 56 months but because of urgent needs they dropped this to 24 months with tank palet. But then the whole engine embargo couldn't be solved so it got delayed until now. Why wasn't it given to FNSS? Because FNSS hasn't gotten the tender of Altay. There was no open tender regarding tank palet, because there wouldn't be a point of giving tank palet to either Otokar or FNSS, since it is BMC that won the tender for Altay mass production and the reason behind tank palet was to speed up the proces of Altay production.
How transparent do you expect it to be? We know that BMC is going to get tank palet for 25 years, at the cost of BMC modernizing the facility for 50 million USD, where BMC will also mass produce Altay, where ASFAT will vet all the employees and people entering the facility, etc. That is all the information we as the public need. Anything extra is not really relevant to us.
Also consider this, why is transparency all of a sudden an issue on this? SSB has countless other projects where transparency isn't questioned. It is up to SSB if it wants to award projects to companies outright or have a tender first, this is all under SSB's own discretion. Military has certain needs and demands regarding military products, in order to achieve the demands in the final products SSB evaluates it and chooses the procurement and project method accordingly.
Regarding Ethem Sancak's interview answer. It's fine if you don't believe him. That is fair enough. But it can also be a slippery slope, where someone selects the information that supports their opinions and ignores information that are contrary to their opinions.
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