TR Artillery Systems & Projects

[adenl]

The Firtina 2 Self Propelled Howitzer and the question about its Propulsion.

View attachment 14269

Firtina 2 Upgrades:

>Aselsan’s SARP RCWS on top of the howitzer turret
>New generation fire control system
>Fully automatic ammunition loading system.
>The new loading system also allows a higher rate of fire, intense fire rate is increased of one round per minute, up to 7-8 rpm
>Multiple Round Impact missions, hitting the same target with three rounds at the same moment.
>The new inertial navigation system allows the Firtina 2 to open fire within 30 seconds from reaching its position
>A key element in terms of safety is the adoption of an all-electric turret, avoiding the dangerous hydraulic piping
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I wonder how much of the upgrades can be used on the original Firtina in a possible MLU upgrade.

And that CAT engine is a terrible choice, but better something then nothing.

 

[what]

How much of a pain will it be for the armed forces to maintain multiple engines for the same Howitzers?
Does it make any difference in maintainance?

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

Does TSK plan on continuing to use the M110?

I would love to see us make a modern 203mm SPG.

 

[Ryder]

Does TSK plan on continuing to use the M110?

I would love to see us make a modern 203mm SPG.

I heard they are getting phased out to make way for more firtinas.

 

[Cypro]

The Firtina 2 Self Propelled Howitzer and the question about its Propulsion.

View attachment 14269

Firtina 2 Upgrades:

>Aselsan’s SARP RCWS on top of the howitzer turret
>New generation fire control system
>Fully automatic ammunition loading system.
>The new loading system also allows a higher rate of fire, intense fire rate is increased of one round per minute, up to 7-8 rpm
>Multiple Round Impact missions, hitting the same target with three rounds at the same moment.
>The new inertial navigation system allows the Firtina 2 to open fire within 30 seconds from reaching its position
>A key element in terms of safety is the adoption of an all-electric turret, avoiding the dangerous hydraulic piping
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Question which was Always a Concern especially when it comes to Export is the Power pack. A Timeline:

Planned Power pack:

MT 881 Ka-500​

View attachment 14271

Specifications:

735 kW (1000 PS)

2700/min

1108 × 972 × 742 mm

1400 kg

144/140 mm

8 Zyl./2,28 l

18,2 l

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In 2018

Many Media Outlets claimed that Turkey was Opting for an Ukrainian Engine.

Fırtına obüsüne ihracat yolu

FIRTINA obüsü ihracatında yıllardır Almanya iznine takılan Türkiye, bu engeli Ukrayna’yla aşmaya hazırlanıyor.

www.hurriyet.com.tr

Looking for an alternative, Makina Kimya Endustrisi Kurumu (MKEK) officials found the solution in Ukraine. Having negotiated with Ukrainian officials and engine manufacturer UkrOboronProm, MKEK ordered 20 engines from this country when it received the commitment "there will be no export restrictions".

We haven't heard from This solution since but the Engine in Question is the Following:

5TDFMA​

View attachment 14274
View attachment 14275

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In 2019 (1 Year Later) The News broke at IDEF 19

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1123261730010861568

Caterpillar Defense UK & Turkish Defense Ministry signed a Memorandum of Understanding for the development of the power packs for Thunder Howitzers.

The Engine which the Power pack will be based of.

CAT C18​

View attachment 14276

CAT C18

597 kW (800 PS)

2000/min

2736 lb-ft @ 1300 rpm

1716 kg

In-Line 6

6 Zyl./3,01 l

18,1 l

The Information's Suggest that the Engine in Question has 6cylinders and a similar Displacement as the MTU, with 18,1 l.
The Engine is a quite a bit heavier than the MTU V8, about 316kg. And produces less Power!

The Final Product which will be integrated in The Firtina Howitzer will probably be an Upgraded Version.

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Current Production Batch distribution of 140 Ordered.
- 3 Howitzers Per Month

According to Yusuf Akbaba the First 10+ Firtina 2 will have the MTU Engine and Renk Transmission and the Following ones will have different Power packs.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352884413542100992

23.01.2021
> 3 Firtina with MTU Engines Delivered

03.2021 - 06.2021
> 3 - 18 Firtina with remaining MTU Engines to be Delivered.

07.2021 -
> Firtina deliveries with CAT Engines to start.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Continuation until BMC Power UTKU Power pack with 1000HP is ready. First Ignition 11.2020, 2.5 years of Tests, approx. readiness 06.2023. )
The Testing phase after Ignition is an Estimate which I based on the 600HP AZRA Power pack. AZRA Ignition 10.2018 Vehicle Tests are almost Finished according to
Osman Dur which means 10.2018 - mid 2021 equals 2.5 Years of Testing
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

07.2021 - 06.2023
> 72 Firtina 2 with CAT Engines
> (90 Firtina Howitzer Total)

06.2023 - 11.2024
> Remaining 50 Firtina with National Power pack UTKU




Feel Free to add your two cents.

These specs suggest that Ukrainian engine is lighter, smaller and has higher hp and rpm than CAT engine. But I couldn't find any info about Torque it produces, Ukrainian engine is only 13L, It looks too good to be true to me. Major problem here could be the shape of the engine block and incompatibility transmission etc. I remember Italian engine was also considered which could not be fitted to Altay but could be used for Fırtına.

Edit: Torque, 5TDFMA 233 kg/m (2284 newton/m / 1685.29 ft lbs. ), MT 881 3030 Nm at 2000 rpm (2235 ft lbs.), CAT C18 3710 Nm at 1300 rpm (2736 lb-ft)

 

[Stuka]

I wonder how much of the upgrades can be used on the original Firtina in a possible MLU upgrade.

And that CAT engine is a terrible choice, but better something then nothing.

Retrofitting the Firtina 1 SPH should be possible to a certain extent, especially considering that they are using, now almost 2 Decades old, Technology.
But Upgrades might need to be Discussed with the Koreans so that might be a little Complicated.

The Engine is indeed worse than the MTU alternative but it show in my opinion how desperate SSB is for a Power pack and that BMC Power Engines are still a far from ready.

> But The MLU are widespread within TAF, many vehicles are half a century old. Which is actually quite sad. Im looking at you M48A5T2!

Does TSK plan on continuing to use the M110?

I would love to see us make a modern 203mm SPG.

Most NATO members are keen on using 155mm Howitzer shells so that seems to be the Future but TAF will likely use the M110 203mm for quite some Time since they are Powerful but Range-wise inferior to 155MM.

> But still also has the M107 175mm so they are gonna be used for some Time for sure.

>TAF even send M107 to IDLIB!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266782057319010309

How much of a pain will it be for the armed forces to maintain multiple engines for the same Howitzers?
Does it make any difference in maintainance?

Actually Very Painful and Expensive!
But it depends on the Future Strategy of SSB. I mean the Engine Could be Retrofit in to the previous Firtinas, which would be likely, if Germany blocks deliveries of spare parts. So in short term very Painful but in long term worth it.

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I'm not sure how many SPH Turkish Land Forces need but the Inventory is Huge and Diverse

I don't think many people now TAF operates M52T SPH still and they have 365 of them.
M52 have been modernized in 1996 but it was a complete overhaul:

- Turkish Army is the sole operator of this artillery system.
- The original short-barrel 105 mm howitzer was replaced with a 155 mm/L39 weapon
- Maximum range of fire is 18 km with standard projectile, 24 km with shaped projectile
- The M52T SPH is fitted with Turkish digital command and fire control system.
- Original petrol engine of the M52 was replaced with new more powerful and more fuel efficient German MTU MB 833 Aa501 diesel, developing 450 hp. This improved mobility of the vehicle and extended operational range. Interestingly the original M52 artillery system with its petrol engine had an operational range of only 160 km.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352595107502043141

 

[adenl]

Retrofitting the Firtina 1 SPH should be possible to a certain extent, especially considering that they are using, now almost 2 Decades old, Technology.
But Upgrades might need to be Discussed with the Koreans so that might be a little Complicated.

The Engine is indeed worse than the MTU alternative but it show in my opinion how desperate SSB is for a Power pack and that BMC Power Engines are still a far from ready.

> But The MLU are widespread within TAF, many vehicles are half a century old. Which is actually quite sad. Im looking at you M48A5T2!



Most NATO members are keen on using 155mm Howitzer shells so that seems to be the Future but TAF will likely use the M110 203mm for quite some Time since they are Powerful but Range-wise inferior to 155MM.

> But still also has the M107 175mm so they are gonna be used for some Time for sure.

>TAF even send M107 to IDLIB!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266782057319010309

Actually Very Painful and Expensive!
But it depends on the Future Strategy of SSB. I mean the Engine Could be Retrofit in to the previous Firtinas, which would be likely, if Germany blocks deliveries of spare parts. So in short term very Painful but in long term worth it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure how many SPH Turkish Land Forces need but the Inventory is Huge and Diverse

I don't think many people now TAF operates M52T SPH still and they have 365 of them.
M52 have been modernized in 1996 but it was a complete overhaul:

- Turkish Army is the sole operator of this artillery system.
- The original short-barrel 105 mm howitzer was replaced with a 155 mm/L39 weapon
- Maximum range of fire is 18 km with standard projectile, 24 km with shaped projectile
- The M52T SPH is fitted with Turkish digital command and fire control system.
- Original petrol engine of the M52 was replaced with new more powerful and more fuel efficient German MTU MB 833 Aa501 diesel, developing 450 hp. This improved mobility of the vehicle and extended operational range. Interestingly the original M52 artillery system with its petrol engine had an operational range of only 160 km.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352595107502043141

I love what TSK did with the M44, M52 M48, M60 and Leopard 1. Making the most out of these systems for relatively little money.

 

[Hexciter]

I heard they are getting phased out to make way for more firtinas.

Syria experiences has been shown their effectiveness against buried structures.
It’s not easy.

 

[Ryder]

Syria experiences has been shown their effectiveness against buried structures.
It’s not easy.

Cant the firtina have another variant that is 203mm??

 

[Hexciter]

Cant the firtina have another variant that is 203mm??

155 mm ammo weights 45 kg whereas 203 mm is 90 kg. You need a heavier platform

 

[Yasar_TR]

Syria experiences has been shown their effectiveness against buried structures.
It’s not easy.

I think we did not have effective anti bunker shells in hand available at the time for the 155mm guns. So we used the 203 mm heavy guns. I don’t know if MKEK is in the process of making any bunker buster shells. But they started producing the HE class shells which originally were being imported.

 

[Hexciter]

Technically 105 mm is mainly antipersonnel, 203 mm is mainly antistructural and 155 mm is in between and more versatile
90 kg warhead is a magical point within existing warheads. Think unitary MLRS and SDB-1 of Americans
“It’s sufficient to destroy a single floor structure without damaging nearby”

 

[Yasar_TR]

Technically 105 mm is mainly antipersonnel, 203 mm is mainly antistructural and 155 mm is in between and more versatile
90 kg warhead is a magical point within existing warheads. Think unitary MLRS and SDB-1 of Americans

I would like to see us producing the new longer range 203mm self propelled guns as well. But I guess with the arrival of highly accurate artillery rockets like TRG 122, 230 and 300 series it is more economical and strategically more sound to forego this idea Especially when you think of their long ranges too.

 

[Turko]

I would like to see us producing the new longer range 203mm self propelled guns as well. But I guess with the arrival of highly accurate artillery rockets like TRG 122, 230 and 300 series it is more economical and strategically more sound to forego this idea Especially when you think of their long ranges too.

Look at the impact and accuracy of guided artillery rockets. It blowned up the building.

 

[Ryder]

Technically 105 mm is mainly antipersonnel, 203 mm is mainly antistructural and 155 mm is in between and more versatile
90 kg warhead is a magical point within existing warheads. Think unitary MLRS and SDB-1 of Americans
“It’s sufficient to destroy a single floor structure without damaging nearby”

I never knew this.

Thank you.

 

[AzeriTank]

Aselsan's Tracked mortar carrier - CONCEPT
View attachment 14225

the thing is its suspension need to be specially designed for those hundreds or thousands of fires to be cost effective.. in wheeled vehicles the same... probably Turkey will put 105mm Boran in this, which i think better as longer distance and more firepower.. and let m113 and ejder yalcin take 120mm mortar.

 

[AzeriTank]

I would like to see us producing the new longer range 203mm self propelled guns as well. But I guess with the arrival of highly accurate artillery rockets like TRG 122, 230 and 300 series it is more economical and strategically more sound to forego this idea Especially when you think of their long ranges too.

no soldier able to carry 90kg warhead, its also danger while movings.. you either need to upload it from outside of the vehicle as regular artillery(that has no future as it will be suppressed after the shot for moving late).. or as Turkey goes to using autoload, Turkey might develop 203mm artillery with 1500hp engine. in Karabagh war, Armenian bungers had concrete on top, then wheels, then thick sand. our artillery were not able to destroy it that pushed us to use 250kg aviation bombs which is also danger(and expensive) from aviation side but some able to judge it as Aksungur able to use it now. imagine using for each 3-4 soldiers bunger 250kg and risk aviation and also problem when there is bad weather as laser designation will not work. also if you think from export side, i would rather sell this new 203mm artillery than Aksungur with PD170 engine.

 

[Combat-Master]

the thing is its suspension need to be specially designed for those hundreds or thousands of fires to be cost effective.. in wheeled vehicles the same... probably Turkey will put 105mm Boran in this, which i think better as longer distance and more firepower.. and let m113 and ejder yalcin take 120mm mortar.

They've thought of this issue of course, the 120mm Alkar mortar system incorporates recoil mechanism which reduces the recoil effect and allows it to be mounted onto various platforms without any modification to the vehicle.

Forinstance - the Israeli Soltam System's Cardom "Hatchet" 120mm mortars that Azerbaijan has in their inventory require beefy stabilizers.

Ejder Yalcin Mortar Carrier with Aselsan's 120mm Alkar mortar system does not require any stabilizers

 

[BalkanTurk90]

I like M52T ,they seems quite modernized
Can someone compare specs with firtina 1 ? how long Turkey will keep m52t in duty?

 

[Glass🚬]

Aselsan's Tracked mortar carrier - CONCEPT
View attachment 14225

They could while they are at it further modify that concept as an unmanned tracked vehicle, a more compact form.