TR Attack & Utility Helicopter Programs

[Sanders]

Because of the ''beauty'' discussions, we couldn't talk much about the 6 hard points issue.
It is a very important advantage both over AH-64 and Mi-28.
It seems T929 can be configurated with 16 anti-tank missiles and external fuel tanks or EW pods according to the mission profile.
Neither AH-64 nor Mi-28 doesn't have 6 hard points, Mi-24 and Ka-52 have.

 

[Heartbang]

or EW pods

Heard ATAK-II has those baked-in

 

[dBSPL]

Because of the ''beauty'' discussions, we couldn't talk much about the 6 hard points issue.
It is a very important advantage both over AH-64 and Mi-28.
It seems T929 can be configurated with 16 anti-tank missiles and external fuel tanks or EW pods according to the mission profile.
Neither AH-64 nor Mi-28 doesn't have 6 hard points, Mi-24 and Ka-52 have.

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The KA-52's underwing ammunition configuration is very nice. Instead of four 4-rail racks, there can be two 6-rail racks. NATO standard 2-rail ATGM racks are around 45kg, 4-rail racks are around 65kg, I think a 6-rail rack can be under 90kg. 12 L-UMTAS 450kg, the total load of 12 ATGM in a total of two pylons would be around 650kg. There is plenty of room for other types of ammunition and there are 4 more empty pylons. The remaining 4 stations can accommodate air-to-air missiles, guided rockets, loitering drones/missiles or LAU rocket pods.

 

[moz68k]

The KA-52's underwing ammunition configuration is very nice. Instead of four 4-rail racks, there can be two 6-rail racks.

I've always felt that the Ka-50-2 "Erdoğan" would have been an awesome attack helicopter for TSK. I know it's cool to dunk on Russian hardware these days, but I never thought their platforms were bad, the inheritors of Soviet tech just failed to properly modernize, maintain, and innovate due to endemic corruption. TAI and ASELSAN would have made these things beasts.

But that's all ancient history. The T-129 was a much better outcome for TAI and provided valuable know-how for Gökbey and ATAK II.

 

[Sanchez]

I've always felt that the Ka-50-2 "Erdoğan" would have been an awesome attack helicopter for TSK. I know it's cool to dunk on Russian hardware these days, but I never thought their platforms were bad, the inheritors of Soviet tech just failed to properly modernize, maintain, and innovate due to endemic corruption. TAI and ASELSAN would have made these things beasts.

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But that's all ancient history. The T-129 was a much better outcome for TAI and provided valuable know-how for Gökbey and ATAK II.

It was also a half baked prototype with some Israeli tech inside and not much else, compared to other more tried and tested participants. I think it's cute that TSK even entertained the idea and allowed them into the tender. But I've always found the retractable turret setup interesting. The gun would extend downwards after takeoff and it's actually middle mounted, a design like none other.

How did they think the gun would stay stabilized or how it would be fed, literally no idea. Still cool tho.

 

[dBSPL]

I've always felt that the Ka-50-2 "Erdoğan" would have been an awesome attack helicopter for TSK. I know it's cool to dunk on Russian hardware these days, but I never thought their platforms were bad, the inheritors of Soviet tech just failed to properly modernize, maintain, and innovate due to endemic corruption. TAI and ASELSAN would have made these things beasts.

View attachment 56848 View attachment 56849

But that's all ancient history. The T-129 was a much better outcome for TAI and provided valuable know-how for Gökbey and ATAK II.

It was also a half baked prototype with some Israeli tech inside and not much else, compared to other more tried and tested participants. I think it's cute that TSK even entertained the idea and allowed them into the tender. But I've always found the retractable turret setup interesting. The gun would extend downwards after takeoff and it's actually middle mounted, a design like none other.

How did they think the gun would stay stabilized or how it would be fed, literally no idea. Still cool tho.

Aside from the retractable turret and glass cocpit, after 25 years, we came close to that approach again. 30mm cannon, 6 weapon stations and capacity of up to 1.2 tonnes, flexible modular avionics infrastructure(with the assumption that it will be the main attack helicopter of the navy), and all Itar-free system.

 

[Sanders]

The KA-52's underwing ammunition configuration is very nice. Instead of four 4-rail racks, there can be two 6-rail racks. NATO standard 2-rail ATGM racks are around 45kg, 4-rail racks are around 65kg, I think a 6-rail rack can be under 90kg. 12 L-UMTAS 450kg, the total load of 12 ATGM in a total of two pylons would be around 650kg. There is plenty of room for other types of ammunition and there are 4 more empty pylons. The remaining 4 stations can accommodate air-to-air missiles, guided rockets, loitering drones/missiles or LAU rocket pods.

Agree. 6 hardpoints promise very different combinations for different missions.
Ka-52-like load-outs can be seen in the naval version of T929 in the future, especially those that include air-to-air missiles and small-cruise missiles like KEMANKEŞ or Çakır.

US AH-1s almost always carry Sidewinder, for example.

 

[dBSPL]

Agree. 6 hardpoints promise very different combinations for different missions.
Ka-52-like load-outs can be seen in the naval version of T929 in the future, especially those that include air-to-air missiles and small-cruise missiles like KEMANKEŞ or Çakır.

US AH-1s almost always carry Sidewinder, for example.

View attachment 56850

Bozdoğan integration sounds very cool, but it is necessary to ask to üstads how efficient it will be in practice. Maybe AA missiles with an operational range of up to 20 km can be an important multiplier to support amphibious landing operations, I don't know. There is also the highly manoeuvrable IIR A-A missile, a smaller version of Bozdoan, which has not been fully presented yet. That could be a missile for directly to 929's arsenal.

What I wanted to point out was the 2x2 Sungur pods. Just like the AH-64s. ATAS BIIs have a flight range of around 8 km, Sungur's A-A variant may be closer to 10 km. On the outer pylons, two Sungur twin pods will use a total capacity of around 100/120kg. Let's consider the above imaginary 12 ATGM scenario in 2 racks: That still leaves two pylons and over 400kg of room. This chopper has the potential to be a real monster.

 

[Osman]

Do not forget kuzgun ky (40 + km range) and kuzgub turbojet (180 km range from ucav, so similar range can be estimated for choppers) weighing 84 kg.

Kuzgun ky will also have mwr guided version and the range of meteksan mw radar is 40 km if I am not wrong

A load of 8 - 12 kuzgun ky and tj seems possible with smart racks.

 

[Sanders]

AH-64E max take off: 10.43 ton
Engine: 2x GE T701D, 1994 HP each

I really wonder what will be like the maneuverability skills of T929 with the 2500 HP Ukranian engines.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1652330217313009664

 

[Zafer]

12 ton MTOW can mean 30 troops on a T925 from the previous 24.

 

[dBSPL]

Agree. 6 hardpoints promise very different combinations for different missions.
Ka-52-like load-outs can be seen in the naval version of T929 in the future, especially those that include air-to-air missiles and small-cruise missiles like KEMANKEŞ or Çakır.

US AH-1s almost always carry Sidewinder, for example.

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I felt the need to quote your message again since UMTAS-GM has been announced. If this missile will offer a +20km engagement range, long-range A-A missiles (I mean for helicopters' standard) may also be required in the same configuration. Because, please correct me if I am wrong, it is starting to move away from close air support to another point. An example configuration for 929: 8 UMTAS-GM, 2 Bozdogan, and 2 Kemankeş or like loitering missiles. No rockets, no short-range weapons. Instead: a couple loitering systems' EOs flying forward line with the radar and electro-optics carried on the helicopter itself.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

I felt the need to quote your message again since UMTAS-GM has been announced. If this missile will offer a +20km engagement range, long-range A-A missiles (I mean for helicopters' standard) may also be required in the same configuration. Because, please correct me if I am wrong, it is starting to move away from close air support to another point. An example configuration for 929: 8 UMTAS-GM, 2 Bozdogan, and 2 Kemankeş or like loitering missiles. No rockets, no short-range weapons. Instead: a couple loitering systems' EOs flying forward line with the radar and electro-optics carried on the helicopter itself.

That's what Lockheed Martin is doing with the introduction of Israeli Spike-NLOS compared to the older hellfire missiles with a 10 km range.

​

 

[boredaf]

small-cruise missiles like KEMANKEŞ or Çakır

Those are not even remotely the same thing though, Çakır's warhead weighs more than twice as much as Kemankeş as a whole and complete missile is 10 times heavier. Calling Kemankeş a cruise missile is an insult to cruise missiles everywhere, it's a loitering munition with 6kg warhead.

 

[Sanchez]

Let's just call it a hybrid munition as that's what it is. It's a loitering munition, a stand off munition and a short endurance UAV in the same platform. With all the links, kement and others, theoretically the chopper pilot can launch the thing and can give the control to a UAV pilot and just "forget" it, which would also somehow make it a fire and forget weapon even when it's used in the man in the loop role.

 

[YeşilVatan]

Let's just call it a hybrid munition as that's what it is. It's a loitering munition, a stand off munition and a short endurance UAV in the same platform. With all the links, kement and others, theoretically the chopper pilot can launch the thing and can give the control to a UAV pilot and just "forget" it, which would also somehow make it a fire and forget weapon even when it's used in the man in the loop role.

But what is being gained by using helicopters as a a launch platform? I'm asking because I think I'm missing something here. Is it achieving longer range by using drones as forward observers/laser desginators?

 

[Sanchez]

A more survivable, compared to a TB2, faster launch platform. It gives more options to strike with from multiple directions and altitudes.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Mr Kotil: "Unmanned helicopter is under development"

 

[boredaf]

Mr Kotil: "Unmanned helicopter is under development"

I wonder if it'll be that T629 model they showed before

 

[Cabatli_TR]

I wonder if it'll be that T629 model they showed before

TUSAŞ is developing helicopter drones with 150kg and 250kg payload but I think Mr. KOTIL is talking about an unmanned attack helicopter based on T629 design