TR Attack & Utility Helicopter Programs

[Era_shield]

There has never been a version of AN/APG-78 that had a range of 12km, the current version has a range of 16km

AN/APG-78 Longbow Fire Control Radar | Northrop Grumman

Developed and fielded for the AH-64D Apache, the APG-78 LONGBOW Fire Control Radar (FCR) is a combat proven force multiplier. LONGBOW FCR has repeatedly demonstrated its operational capabilities to dramatically increase Apache's mission success.

www.northropgrumman.com

The original Longbow radar's instrumented range was 12km. The chart shows the correct instrumented range for all 3 radars. The data for the Longbow is a bit outdated now but at the time the chart was created few countries had the 64E with upgraded radar.

 

[AWP]

thank you guys for correcting me , honestly youtube military videos that speak about turkey turn out to be full of shi*y information

this forum is goldmine <3

 

[Zafer]

Does the government of "Philly" ask send an IBAN number and beg people for money?

Turkey is a maker of helicopters and we get to buy engines at maker prices and not export customer prizes. Each engine should cost around $1mn for us. We are not having capable machines because we are rich but because we can make them cost effectively.

People should be thankful that the government can resort to the public charity for national solidarity efforts rather than piling up debt. People are happy that their losses are being compensated. Apparently our government doing so well doesn't work for everyone.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Offtopic posts have been deleted. We call on our dear members to stay away from politics and off-topic discussions on such sticky threads.

Thanks for your understanding.

 

[LegionnairE]

Offtopic posts have been deleted. We call on our dear members to stay away from politics and off-topic discussions on such sticky threads.

Thanks for your understanding.

No offense but it's pointless to come and delete messages 4 days after the discussion has ended.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

No offense but it's pointless to come and delete messages 4 days after the discussion has ended.

Let people do their job and I would love to see you discuss a technical issue without getting involved in politics. You have been warned many times and you are still doing the same thing. Next time the mods won't be so kind for you because of repeated violations.

 

[Yasar_TR]

As I understand from the officials‘ statements, T629 is not a low priority project. On the contrary, it was introduced as a viable option for countries with limited resources, without re-export licence restrictions. As it shares the same technical infrastructure as Gokbey, Kotil was pretty confident of an international success. Soon after TS1400 is mounted on Gokbey, I would not be surprised if a T629 prototype all of a sudden appear on the tarmac, out of nowhere,

During IDEF-2021, Prof Aksit clearly stated that “our government has not asked TEI, to militarise the TS1400 engine. If asked TEI is ready to do so.”
So unless two militarised TS1400 is in hand, I wouldn’t hold my breath for a T-629 soon.
Apart from Tusas using CTS-800 engines again for the prototypes, T-629 needs a year or two yet, to be ready with indigenous engines.

 

[TheInsider]

T-629 is not an urgent project according to the latest TUSAS roadmap. It will replace T-129 from 2028 on and plans are made accordingly.

 

[comolokko]

hello everyone

sorry to ask but am quite confused regarding the turkish helicopter projects , as far as I understand there are 3 projects at the same time to develop new helicopters for the TSK , these are :

1- T-929 which is Atak 2 helicopter .
2- T-629 which is unmanned helicopter .
3- 10 ton general purpose helicopter .
4- T-625 gökbey helicopter .

if those codes and names are correct , why the urgency to develop the T629 unmanned helicopter while it more important to do the 10 ton utility helicopter first since the TN is expanding and TA lack of transport helicopter ?

i think it was just for show. it would be a little strange to think that the f 16 was pilotless. the same is true for the Atak helicopter.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Lost in translation, I guess! I do understand your point, and it would make great sense if T-629 was a government oriented (or funded) project to start with. This is where it turns out to be pretty confusing, because Prof. Aksit’s words indicate a clear government initiative for a “go ahead” for the project. The entire program was introduced as “export oriented”, and not for official demand, and that TAI would use internal revenues for R&D. And when you take this into consideration, it would be logical to assume that T-629 project (along with militarization of the TS engine) will run in parallel with other (urgent or not) projects under TAI and TEI, or am missing something here

I am afraid you are a little bit.
TAI is the company that will produce the T-629 if required. But it needs an order from SSB (Under Secretariat of Defence Presidency) to go ahead. Then TAI will ask TEI to manufacture a number of “militarised“ TS-1400 prototype engines.
TEI, at the end of the day, is a profit based private company like TAI, as you have rightly pointed out. They will not produce a new engine unless they have received an order from TAI/SSB.
Prof Aksit says “if our government asks us to produce a militarised engine we will do so”. As you have said, it is indicative of government orientated project.
TAI will not carry on with production of T-629, unless SSB gives them the green light. But as T-129 is already in production and it has a license agreement that extends to 2028, TAI may feel not in a hurry. Especially, since in the meantime T-929 is being developed.
On paper T-629 is going to be superior to T-129. But is it more important to channel, already restricted funds to a light attack helicopter or focus on it’s big brother?

 

[Bogeyman]

I am afraid you are a little bit.
TAI is the company that will produce the T-629 if required. But it needs an order from SSB (Under Secretariat of Defence Presidency) to go ahead. Then TAI will ask TEI to manufacture a number of “militarised“ TS-1400 prototype engines.
TEI, at the end of the day, is a profit based private company like TAI, as you have rightly pointed out. They will not produce a new engine unless they have received an order from TAI/SSB.
Prof Aksit says “if our government asks us to produce a militarised engine we will do so”. As you have said, it is indicative of government orientated project.
TAI will not carry on with production of T-629, unless SSB gives them the green light. But as T-129 is already in production and it has a license agreement that extends to 2028, TAI may feel not in a hurry. Especially, since in the meantime T-929 is being developed.
On paper T-629 is going to be superior to T-129. But is it more important to channel, already restricted funds to a light attack helicopter or focus on it’s big brother?

It's not just about Turkey's own needs. Today, when we want to export the T-129 ATAK helicopter, we have to buy engines from the United States. Pakistan is still waiting for the engine from us. But the SSB seems incapable of making proactive moves in export bargaining. So it seems very likely that we will lose the auctions. Not everyone is as patient as Pakistan.

 

[Yasar_TR]

It's not just about Turkey's own needs. Today, when we want to export the T-129 ATAK helicopter, we have to buy engines from the United States. Pakistan is still waiting for the engine from us. But the SSB seems incapable of making proactive moves in export bargaining. So it seems very likely that we will lose the auctions. Not everyone is as patient as Pakistan.

If today the decision were taken to produce a militarised TS1400 engine, it wouldn’t be ready before 6 months. Then it needs to be tested, integrated and qualified to T-129 . That is two years minimum. Then it has to be tested again in the Himalaya mountains by Pakistan before a decision is made to purchase them.
I am all for using our engine in place of CTS-800. But it is going to take time to have it fully operational. Then again, the sooner we start the quicker we will have it in our helicopters.
The reluctance of TEI/TAI building a militarised TS1400 makes me think if there is a clause in the licence agreement that we have to use CTS-800 in our Atak T-129s.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Thanks bro, but somehow I had the impression (from Kotil’s words) that T629 was/would be a sole, independent TAI venture, to be evolved into a fully fletched prototype and put into serial production if there was demand! If T629 project is all about replacing the T129, this would beat the initial purpose.

We have ~ 65 units of T-129s already delivered to our forces. if memory serves, I think there is nearly another 20+ T-129s in the production line. Total order for these helicopters were just under 100 units. (59 + 40 options) So domestic order book is about to close. There are orders from Morocco, Philippines and of course Pakistan. (and now prospective order from Iraq) .
Any weapons that are purchased for your army is a burden on your economy (if it is imported it is a killer. If it is produced at home it is still a non additive expense on economy even though your foreign currency stays in) . To export your weapons abroad has better results than exporting civilian goods, on your economy. So it is a no-brainier to make sure you export your weapons as much as possible. The three buyers of Atak mentioned above will pay for all the ones we have produced for ourselves.
I really can’t understand the reluctance to produce Atak with our engine.
I think our mistake was made at the beginning of this project; We should have asked RR/Honeywell to co-produce 250-300 engines in house Under license like the T-700 Blackhawk project.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

We have ~ 65 units of T-129s already delivered to our forces. if memory serves, I think there is nearly another 20+ T-129s in the production line. Total order for these helicopters were just under 100 units. (59 + 40 options) So domestic order book is about to close. There are orders from Morocco, Philippines and of course Pakistan. (and now prospective order from Iraq) .
Any weapons that are purchased for your army is a burden on your economy (if it is imported it is a killer. If it is produced at home it is still a non additive expense on economy even though your foreign currency stays in) . To export your weapons abroad has better results than exporting civilian goods, on your economy. So it is a no-brainier to make sure you export your weapons as much as possible. The three buyers of Atak mentioned above will pay for all the ones we have produced for ourselves.
I really can’t understand the reluctance to produce Atak with our engine.
I think our mistake was made at the beginning of this project; We should have asked RR/Honeywell to co-produce 250-300 engines in house Under license like the T-700 Blackhawk project.

Morocco made a order? When?

 

[Abdelaziz]

Does any one know when the 1st t70 blackhawk will be delivered ?

 

[Glass🚬]

Does any one know when the 1st t70 blackhawk will be delivered ?

“We need to finish the qualification in 2021 and start the delivery of the helicopters coming out of mass production... 2020 will be challenging and intensive. Flying these helicopters one by one, the certification, qualification is not an easy thing but from 2021 onwards, we plan to rapidly deliver 36 helicopters by 2023,” he explained.

Domestic multi-role T70 utility helicopter to begin test flights in 2020

The Turkish-built T-70 multi-role utility helicopter will begin test flights next year, Turkish Aerospace Industry (TUSAŞ/TAI) Deputy General Manager...

www.dailysabah.com

 

[Anmdt]

If today the decision were taken to produce a militarised TS1400 engine, it wouldn’t be ready before 6 months. Then it needs to be tested, integrated and qualified to T-129 . That is two years minimum. Then it has to be tested again in the Himalaya mountains by Pakistan before a decision is made to purchase them.
I am all for using our engine in place of CTS-800. But it is going to take time to have it fully operational. Then again, the sooner we start the quicker we will have it in our helicopters.
The reluctance of TEI/TAI building a militarised TS1400 makes me think if there is a clause in the licence agreement that we have to use CTS-800 in our Atak T-129s.

militarized TS-1400 and T-629 is not related to each other organically. militarized TS-1400 is a part of turbo-shaft development program that will be made and qualified according to a schedule. Even SSB ultimately plans to use larger ones on T-929 and the general purpose helicopter.

 

[Yasar_TR]

militarized TS-1400 and T-629 is not related to each other organically. militarized TS-1400 is a part of turbo-shaft development program that will be made and qualified according to a schedule. Even SSB ultimately plans to use larger ones on T-929 and the general purpose helicopter.

If you are not going to use militarised TS1400 on t-629, where are you going to use it? It’s power profile coincides with the t-629’s requirements. TAI and SSB seem to be reluctant to develop it for t-129. Or at the least not ready to do so. That leaves the logical choice of t-629.

 

[Test7]

T-929( Atak II)

 

[Anmdt]

If you are not going to use militarised TS1400 on t-629, where are you going to use it? It’s power profile coincides with the t-629’s requirements. TAI and SSB seem to be reluctant to develop it for t-129. Or at the least not ready to do so. That leaves the logical choice of t-629.

I didn't imply using but developing, experimental gokbey or T-129 can be used for this purpose. I don't see much chances on developing a larger turboshaft engines for atak-II and general purpose helicopter without first completing the TS-1400 for military applications.

If t-629 gets a customer by then, the engines can be used on those. Otherwise militarized TS-1400 will remain as an interim step towards the bigger ones. TS-1400 itself will already find sufficient application on gokbey.