TR Attack & Utility Helicopter Programs

[No Name]

We really, really needed that beast.

Does the army need it that much? Hasn't the entire idea of heavy attack helicopters become somewhat antiquated by how common manpads are these days?

 

[Ripley]

Does the army need it that much? Hasn't the entire idea of heavy attack helicopters become somewhat antiquated by how common manpads are these days?

I was referring to T925, heavy cargo heli.
And I dont believe a new and heavier attack helicopter should be top of the list, either.

 

[boredaf]

Well, T-70 is apparently dead, at least for now.

T-70 programı kısmi olarak durduruldu

Lockheed Martin tarafından 2025 yılının başında paylaşılan belgeye göre T-70 programı kısmi olarak durduruldu.

www.defenceturk.net

 

[Saithan]

Will Gökbey be a stopgap solution for S70, I know their specs are completly different, but I do not think we are in a position to not keep supplying our armed forces with more Helicopters and we need to be doing it constantly.

I thought the T925 was going to be such a platform like S70 and if you look at the armed version of S70 it's pretty bad ass.

 

[Pokemonte13]

Will Gökbey be a stopgap solution for S70, I know their specs are completly different, but I do not think we are in a position to not keep supplying our armed forces with more Helicopters and we need to be doing it constantly.

I thought the T925 was going to be such a platform like S70 and if you look at the armed version of S70 it's pretty bad ass.

till T925 is ready in 2030 we have a dire need for medium helicopters and gökbey will go in to full serial production in 2028 with different versions but with trump in the white House the chance for a continuance is high but i think gökbey is more needed than t925

 

[Saithan]

till T925 is ready in 2030 we have a dire need for medium helicopters and gökbey will go in to full serial production in 2028 with different versions but with trump in the white House the chance for a continuance is high but i think gökbey is more needed than t925

Yes, while current Gökbey is using HTEC engine we have not heard anything with regards to the domestic engine TS1400, and that's not a good thing imo.

 

[No Name]

Here is an interesting video about the role of attack helicopters in the modern battlefield

To those wondering who he Michael Shurkin was a nonresident fellow with the Atlantic Council’s Africa Center.

Shurkin is an expert in European defence and West African politics and security. He holds a PhD from Yale University, and his experience includes serving on the National Security Council, being the senior political scientist at RAND, and serving as a political analyst at the Central Intelligence Agency.

He is currently a lecturer at Johns Hopkins University, an adjunct professor at the Maxwell School of Citizenship & Public Affairs, the director of global programs at 14 North Strategies, and the founder and president of Shurbros Global Strategies.

 

[Sanchez]

Özbek claims US and Turkey are discussing continuing the stalled T70 program.

T-70 projesinde kalan 70 helikopter için Türkiye ve ABD masada - Tolga Özbek

Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri, Jandarma ve Orman Genel Müdürlüğü envanterine girmeye başlayan T-70 genel maksat helikopterinde teslimatı beklenen 70 helikopter için

tolgaozbek.com

 

[Fairon]

Özbek claims US and Turkey are discussing continuing the stalled T70 program.

T-70 projesinde kalan 70 helikopter için Türkiye ve ABD masada - Tolga Özbek

Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri, Jandarma ve Orman Genel Müdürlüğü envanterine girmeye başlayan T-70 genel maksat helikopterinde teslimatı beklenen 70 helikopter için

tolgaozbek.com

Isn't the reason we can't produce more T70s not because of CAATSA but because the license in the original agreement expired?

Also, they have just started negotiations?

Guess no good news coming from T925 development.

 

[boredaf]

Isn't the reason we can't produce more T70s not because of CAATSA but because the license in the original agreement expired?

Also, they have just started negotiations?

Guess no good news coming from T925 development.

Nope, it was CAATSA, there was an announcement from L&M, as it is mentioned in the article, and it isn't about expiration.

 

[Fairon]

Nope, it was CAATSA, there was an announcement from L&M, as it is mentioned in the article, and it isn't about expiration.

There was lots of talks about we can only build T70's till certain year and after that we have to renew the agreement.(which requires a congress approval)

With quick search I could only found below article which states the deadline as AUG24. (There was lots of more detailed information available but at the time I couldn't found it) We could only build 38 of the 109 helicopters due to national avionics and equipment development took so long.

T-70 helikopteri için kritik ay Ağustos | SavunmaSanayiST

TUSAŞ tarafından üretilen T-70 Genel Maksat Helikopteri için Ağustos 2024 kritik bir ay olarak öne çıkıyor. Helikopterdeki lisans sorunun akıbeti, ağustos ayı

www.savunmasanayist.com

I know L&M made an annoucement and it coincides with the AUG24 date.

CAATSA definitely made it much difficult to extend the agreement, I agree but the main reason is not that.(After all we build the T70's under CAATSA)

Well in the end we could say it is because of CAATSA, without it we probably wouldn't have trouble renewing the agreement but still..

 

[Sanchez]

Did they deliver the previous helicopters without cold weather tests?

How many other tests still needs to be done?

TAI gazzette issue 140 confirms these cold weather tests in Kiruna, Sweden were for military/civilian certification process.

TAI also received the Production Organization Approval (POA) from SHGM for civilian version of T625. They had applied in 2020, and received the POA on december 2024.

Dergi - TUSAS

Dergi

www.tusas.com

 

[Saithan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1916794747315724750

After the license production timer for S-70 ran out, I consider these posts to be some sort of a sick joke. I'd prefer hearing that 4 new Gökbeys joined and more are being produced.

They don't mention from where the T-70 came, so it's either one of the last in production, or Armed Forces handing over theirs to Gendarmerie...

 

[Sanchez]

After the license production timer for S-70 ran out, I consider these posts to be some sort of a sick joke. I'd prefer hearing that 4 new Gökbeys joined and more are being produced.

They don't mention from where the T-70 came, so it's either one of the last in production, or Armed Forces handing over theirs to Gendarmerie...

Not at all, these are all numbered from the day they start their production. This particular bird with the number this and that was slated to enter JnGK inventory at least 2 years ago. T70 deliveries will continue for some time, probably 4-8 more are to be delivered. Problem is more not entering production line.

 

[Ripley]

Finally! Common sense prevails. Mr. Obvious and pretty much everyone else could‘ve told that the10 ton cargo heli was the top priority.

On a side note, it’s also quite clear now the new direction of TUSAŞ is less number of projects and more focused on key projects, unlike Mr. Kotil’s vision of engaging in more projects.
I can’t decide whether it‘s good or bad, tbh.

 

[Sanchez]

Finally! Common sense prevails. Mr. Obvious and pretty much everyone else could‘ve told that the10 ton cargo heli was the top priority.

This is nothing new actually, have been reiterated multiple times in the last year.

I don't like the look of that schedule, doesn't instill confidence. And Ukrainian engines for the early models, accepting they will be running outdated gear and will be underpowered. Sad.

 

[Sanchez]

Why do you say it will be underpowered?

Turboshaft - Motor Sich

And what do you mean with outdated gear?
Looks like almost everything, except the engines, will be indigenous.

No changes. We’re proceeding with the Ukrainian engine. At the same time, a local engine project is ongoing between SSB and TEI. Hopefully, like with Gökbey, we’ll see it fly with a local engine too.

Ukrainian engine in question is an outdated engine, similar to ones we have on Mi-17s and early Mi-24s. It's a 50 year old Soviet design. T925 and T929 will have those engines as their basis. Later changing the design will require extensive rework, meaning more money spent on development or a similar Turkish engine(unlikely as "TS3000" is to be based on TS1400) with same deficiencies.

 

[boredaf]

Regarding T925, maybe the batches with Ukrainian engines will be only used inside Türkiye (i hope so) for basic troop transportation and slingloading. (I want to be optimistic)

I've got a bridge to sell mate, you interested?

 

[Yasar_TR]

Later changing the design will require extensive rework, meaning more money spent on development or a similar Turkish engine(unlikely as "TS3000" is to be based on TS1400) with same deficiencies.

Exactly! These platforms should be built around a specific engine.

TS3000 can not be based on TS1400.
TS1400 has a two stage compressor with a radial airflow. That is the limit of number of compressor stages for a radial airflow engine. TS3000, if ever realised, is going to be an axial airflow engine with multiple compressor stages. Our best bet is to produce our own 3000HP engine by enlarging the T700 engine that we produced for the blackhawks based on the GE model, by calling it TS3000. After all the TS1400 is based on the Honeywell CTS800.

 

[Saithan]

I think you guys know my pov on this, I require more than proof of concept, I want a production and delivery of enough platforms no less than 30-40 to armed forces to be used to garner more experience On TS1400 and I expect accumulation of experience to yield better result on anything we produce later on. I do not accept the delays on using TS1400, civilian certification is not relevant for what we need to use it for. Imo T129 should have at least 30-60 with TS1400. Experience is very important.