TR Attack & Utility Helicopter Programs

Ripley

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I see it as new Hürkuş loading. TAI doesn't have the time and resources available to build it as such, they don't have a viable engine, they probably don't have the necessary back and forth with the army either. On top of that, increasing brain drain, continued lack of funding, claimed sunk cost of 500 million dollars on the development already and they are now probably stuck.

Don't let my enthusiasm showing from seeing the actual picture. A design changing this much in such a short time frame multiple times is a sign of disaster in the making. T925 majorly changed 4 times since 2018, T929 changed at least 3 times. And these are just the publicly available ones. It's not looking too good. T925 is claimed to make its first flight this year. Let's see.
Your “enthusiasm” surely don’t leave any room for dreams and wishful thinking 😔

T925 was my favorite project among many others. I was sincerely hopeful but schedule changes, delays, lack of engine all were red flags. And when I heard they were redesigning to scale it down, that’s when my heart sank.

We really, really needed that beast.
 

Ripley

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Does the army need it that much? Hasn't the entire idea of heavy attack helicopters become somewhat antiquated by how common manpads are these days?
I was referring to T925, heavy cargo heli.
And I dont believe a new and heavier attack helicopter should be top of the list, either.
 

Saithan

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Will Gökbey be a stopgap solution for S70, I know their specs are completly different, but I do not think we are in a position to not keep supplying our armed forces with more Helicopters and we need to be doing it constantly.

I thought the T925 was going to be such a platform like S70 and if you look at the armed version of S70 it's pretty bad ass.
 

Pokemonte13

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Will Gökbey be a stopgap solution for S70, I know their specs are completly different, but I do not think we are in a position to not keep supplying our armed forces with more Helicopters and we need to be doing it constantly.

I thought the T925 was going to be such a platform like S70 and if you look at the armed version of S70 it's pretty bad ass.
till T925 is ready in 2030 we have a dire need for medium helicopters and gökbey will go in to full serial production in 2028 with different versions but with trump in the white House the chance for a continuance is high but i think gökbey is more needed than t925
 

Saithan

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till T925 is ready in 2030 we have a dire need for medium helicopters and gökbey will go in to full serial production in 2028 with different versions but with trump in the white House the chance for a continuance is high but i think gökbey is more needed than t925
Yes, while current Gökbey is using HTEC engine we have not heard anything with regards to the domestic engine TS1400, and that's not a good thing imo.
 

No Name

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Here is an interesting video about the role of attack helicopters in the modern battlefield


To those wondering who he Michael Shurkin was a nonresident fellow with the Atlantic Council’s Africa Center.

Shurkin is an expert in European defence and West African politics and security. He holds a PhD from Yale University, and his experience includes serving on the National Security Council, being the senior political scientist at RAND, and serving as a political analyst at the Central Intelligence Agency.

He is currently a lecturer at Johns Hopkins University, an adjunct professor at the Maxwell School of Citizenship & Public Affairs, the director of global programs at 14 North Strategies, and the founder and president of Shurbros Global Strategies.
 
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Fairon

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boredaf

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Isn't the reason we can't produce more T70s not because of CAATSA but because the license in the original agreement expired?

Also, they have just started negotiations?

Guess no good news coming from T925 development.
Nope, it was CAATSA, there was an announcement from L&M, as it is mentioned in the article, and it isn't about expiration.
 

Fairon

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Nope, it was CAATSA, there was an announcement from L&M, as it is mentioned in the article, and it isn't about expiration.

There was lots of talks about we can only build T70's till certain year and after that we have to renew the agreement.(which requires a congress approval)

With quick search I could only found below article which states the deadline as AUG24. (There was lots of more detailed information available but at the time I couldn't found it) We could only build 38 of the 109 helicopters due to national avionics and equipment development took so long.


I know L&M made an annoucement and it coincides with the AUG24 date.

CAATSA definitely made it much difficult to extend the agreement, I agree but the main reason is not that.(After all we build the T70's under CAATSA)

Well in the end we could say it is because of CAATSA, without it we probably wouldn't have trouble renewing the agreement but still..
 

Sanchez

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Did they deliver the previous helicopters without cold weather tests?

How many other tests still needs to be done?
TAI gazzette issue 140 confirms these cold weather tests in Kiruna, Sweden were for military/civilian certification process.

TAI also received the Production Organization Approval (POA) from SHGM for civilian version of T625. They had applied in 2020, and received the POA on december 2024.

 

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Sanchez

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After the license production timer for S-70 ran out, I consider these posts to be some sort of a sick joke. I'd prefer hearing that 4 new Gökbeys joined and more are being produced.

They don't mention from where the T-70 came, so it's either one of the last in production, or Armed Forces handing over theirs to Gendarmerie...
Not at all, these are all numbered from the day they start their production. This particular bird with the number this and that was slated to enter JnGK inventory at least 2 years ago. T70 deliveries will continue for some time, probably 4-8 more are to be delivered. Problem is more not entering production line.
 

Strong AI

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Recently, you shared the second anniversary of Atak 2's first flight. Sir, what is the status of Atak 2? Because there are so many projects. Honestly, I don’t know of another aviation company besides TUSAŞ that has designed and flown this many aircraft in recent years.

Yes, you put it well. We’ve done a lot of projects to date especially in the past three years, we flew four or five platforms, four of them within a single year. That’s a huge success. But ever since I took this position, I’ve been saying that our next phase is mass productio based on demand. That forced us to prioritize. What does that mean? We're working on a 10-ton helicopter and on Atak 2, and our approach is to unify them as much as possible. Whatever can be shared will be shared. The rotor blades, rotors, transmission, avionics, rivets, bolts, paint whatever is common will be used across both. Only the fuselage might be different, seats might vary, as those must be customized anyway. In this context, once we prioritized, we saw that there’s a high likelihood that the T70 might no longer be an option for the Land Forces, and there’s a serious need across the Land Forces, Air Forces, Naval Forces, and Gendarmerie. Between 2030 and 2040, a significant number of similar helicopters will be retired due to age. Considering all this, we consulted with authorities at the SSB and the forces, and made a decision:
We will prioritize the 10-ton helicopter over Atak 2 due to the greater need. But this doesn’t mean we’re abandoning Atak 2 since they share most components, development continues. When needed, we’ll resume the remaining or updated parts of Atak 2 accordingly. But our current priority is the 10-ton helicopter. It’s 925, right? When will it make its first flight, and what are your new goals regarding it?

From the start, we targeted the first flight of the 925 for mid 2026 July or August. That hasn’t changed. Our teams are working towards this goal. Maybe it’ll shift by a month or two, which is normal. But we expect to perform the prototype’s first flight in the third quarter of 2026.

And the delivery? Deliveries are scheduled for the third quarter of 2028 no changes there. Setting these dates is important because you can plan your workforce, procurement, and production accordingly. The first flight of the firefighting helicopters for the General Directorate of Forestry is in Q3 2026, with delivery in Q3 2028.

You also made some design modifications. Can you briefly explain? Because needs evolve over time.
Two years ago, we showcased a mockup of the 10-ton. Based on updated needs assessments, it became clear that a helicopter more like the T70 one that meets most operational requirements at an optimal level is needed. So, we said, let’s build one helicopter that maximizes commonality and benefit. We discussed it again with the forces.
Instead of the helicopter from the original mockup, we evolved it into a slightly larger and heavier version of the T70 that can lift more and fly faster. We’re planning to unveil it at IDEF.

So, a rear cargo door maybe?
No rear cargo door. Let’s wait for IDEF for the details.
Any changes in the engine?
No changes. We’re proceeding with the Ukrainian engine. At the same time, a local engine project is ongoing between SSB and TEI. Hopefully, like with Gökbey, we’ll see it fly with a local engine too.

We’re aiming for Gökbey deliveries with a local engine by late 2027.
We hope the same happens soon for the 10-ton as well.
 
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Ripley

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Finally! Common sense prevails. Mr. Obvious and pretty much everyone else could‘ve told that the10 ton cargo heli was the top priority.

On a side note, it’s also quite clear now the new direction of TUSAŞ is less number of projects and more focused on key projects, unlike Mr. Kotil’s vision of engaging in more projects.
I can’t decide whether it‘s good or bad, tbh.
 

Sanchez

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Finally! Common sense prevails. Mr. Obvious and pretty much everyone else could‘ve told that the10 ton cargo heli was the top priority.
This is nothing new actually, have been reiterated multiple times in the last year.

I don't like the look of that schedule, doesn't instill confidence. And Ukrainian engines for the early models, accepting they will be running outdated gear and will be underpowered. Sad.
 

Strong AI

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And Ukrainian engines for the early models, accepting they will be running outdated gear and will be underpowered. Sad.
Why do you say it will be underpowered?
And what do you mean with outdated gear?
Looks like almost everything, except the engines, will be indigenous.
We're working on a 10-ton helicopter and on Atak 2, and our approach is to unify them as much as possible. Whatever can be shared will be shared. The rotor blades, rotors, transmission, avionics, rivets, bolts, paint whatever is common will be used across both.
 

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