TR Attack & Utility Helicopter Programs

[hugh]

But if it's CTS 800 it should already been tested as they delivered to Gendarmerie.

I think TAI's concern is mainly the helicopter and its performance under the adverse conditions as the engine(CTS800) is more mature in its development.

 

[Sanchez]

With which engine? CTS 800 or TS-1400?

I'm 90% sure it's the CTS800. But, it is possible it's with the TS1400 as well, it should be undergoing its tests right about now. It is possible that this test in Sweden and not Turkey was part of both helicopter's and the engine's type certificate tests. They continue to drip feed info on such public matters. It's a civilian helicopter...

Did they deliver the previous helicopters without cold weather tests?

Gendarme helicopters had snow tests last march.

According to the information I have received, over 1,000 hours have been flown during the flight test campaign, and over 100 hours have been flown with the J6001 alone. In this context, the J6001 was also subjected to 'snow tests' in Erzurum last March.

 

[Fairon]

I'm 90% sure it's the CTS800. But, it is possible it's with the TS1400 as well, it should be undergoing its tests right about now. It is possible that this test in Sweden and not Turkey was part of both helicopter's and the engine's type certificate tests. They continue to drip feed info on such public matters. It's a civilian helicopter...


Gendarme helicopters had snow tests last march.

Ah, civilian certificate. I didn't think of that. Now this makes sense.

 

[Sanchez]

Ah, civilian certificate. I didn't think of that. Now this makes sense.

Not clear if it's the case, but it is the one that makes most sense, with or without TS1400. It's all guesswork save for some scant reporting, as TAI still fails to share milestones clearly.

 

[Fatman17]

TAI performs cold-weather tests on Gokbey helicopter https://www.flightglobal.com/helico...her-tests-on-gokbey-helicopter/161790.article

 

[Sanchez]

Everybody at this stage knows my love of T625. But you can't beat bigger size, bigger capacity.

A small container ship faced heavy seas and ran aground on in eastern Canada the other day with a possible danger of ship breaking apart.

2 CH-149 Cormorants, which is the RCAF SAR variant of the AW101 Merlin, were dispatched to help. Per reports, a single Cormorant rescued all 20 sailors on the ship by itself. We have a great video showing the action both from ground and from inside the helicopter.

Coast Guard needs such capable aircraft, as well as the navy and army. Blackhawks are not large enough and we only have 10 Chinooks. I was actually happy that T925 was a 11-12 ton helicopter but latest released designs show a smaller design, basically same size as our S70s. So T925 won't help us for this need. We either need to start another program, or buy from abroad.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Ah, civilian certificate. I didn't think of that. Now this makes sense.

GÖKBEY helikopteri test için neden Erzurum’a değil de İsveç’e gitti? - İskandinavya Gündemi

Geçtiğimiz gün Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayi (TUSAŞ) T625 GÖKBEY helikopterinin önemli bir testi daha tamamladığını açıkladı. GÖKBEY yaklaşık 1 ay boyunca dünyanın en soğuk iklimlerinden biri olan İsveç’in Kiruna şehrinde uçtu. Peki GÖKBEY neden Türkiye’nin en soğuk bölgelerinden biri olan...

www.iskandinavyagundemi.com

Gökbey, was subjected to winter tests before in Erzurum. But in Erzurum and Ardahan average temperatures this time of the year is -9 to -11 degrees Celsius. Kiruna Sweden has a -30 degrees average temperature.
To start a helicopter that has stood idle overnight under extreme cold then fly it at those temperatures is the real achievement. Also Kiruna is at sea level altitude. One of the prerequisites of these cold weather tests is to fly at sea level at such cold conditions.

Gokbey flew at 20000ft before.
At best, the temperature at that altitude is -24 degrees Celsius or even colder. But there are other parameters a helicopter has to be subjected to for EASA certification. With Swedish tests these parameter requirements have been met.

 

[Sanchez]

I was actually happy that T925 was a 11-12 ton helicopter but latest released designs show a smaller design, basically same size as our S70s. So T925 won't help us for this need. We either need to start another program, or buy from abroad.

Updated brochures for T925 and T929. 12ton MTOW, capacity to carry 19 troops, probably in its utility configuration. So, still not as big as the AW101, but sits pretty much in the middle. Lacking a ramp, it will basically be a larger S70.

T929 still seems very much on the backburner with its low poly design. Both have the same Soviet Ukrainian engines found on late production Mi-24s and Ka-27s, a generation or two behind the CTS800 we use on T625 and T129. I see the engine as the main roadblock in front of these two projects both in performance, complexity and availability. Wish we could secure a T700 license from the US at least.

Thanks to Catfishtheblues for digging these up.

 

[Pokemonte13]

I’m guessing the first batch would be delivered with Ukrainian engines and the the rest hopefully with domestic engines although I don’t know if their is development for that

 

[Sanchez]

although I don’t know if their is development for that

Not at the moment, no.

 

[Khagan1923]

Updated brochures for T925 and T929. 12ton MTOW, capacity to carry 19 troops, probably in its utility configuration. So, still not as big as the AW101, but sits pretty much in the middle. Lacking a ramp, it will basically be a larger S70.

View attachment 74245

T929 still seems very much on the backburner with its low poly design. Both have the same Soviet Ukrainian engines found on late production Mi-24s and Ka-27s, a generation or two behind the CTS800 we use on T625 and T129. I see the engine as the main roadblock in front of these two projects both in performance, complexity and availability. Wish we could secure a T700 license from the US at least.

View attachment 74246

Thanks to Catfishtheblues for digging these up.

If I am not mistaken the Navy wanted a ramp vehemently and still with Ukranian engines even though we have not heard anything positive when it comes to actually delivering them.


Don't know but maybe scrapping the T-929 and asking the Italians while relations are good for a custom AW249 might be an option to supplement the T-129 with a tad more heavier chopper.

AW249 with Turkish Avionics, 30mm cannon instead of 20mm (if even feasible and possible) and Turkish armaments might be possible in the current climate.

It would be lighter than what was planned with T-929 (10 Ton) but it actually exists. Just a thought. Right now I think T-929 is not even on the backburner but most likely frozen for the time being.

This all only makes sense if there is actually still an interest by the Land Forces for an heavier chopper

 

[Khagan1923]

Also if CAATSA is off the table I think we need to use the opportunity we have and close capability gaps, as much as all of us dislike purchasing hardware from the US buying more CH-47 and possible MH-60R or at least more Seahawks would be a wise decision and of course extending the license for the T-70 production.

 

[Sanchez]

Don't know but maybe scrapping the T-929 and asking the Italians while relations are good for a custom AW249 might be an option to supplement the T-129 with a tad more heavier chopper.

AW249 with Turkish Avionics, 30mm cannon instead of 20mm (if even feasible and possible) and Turkish armaments might be possible in the current climate.

It would be lighter than what was planned with T-929 (10 Ton) but it actually exists. Just a thought. Right now I think T-929 is not even on the backburner but most likely frozen for the time being.

This all only makes sense if there is actually still an interest by the Land Forces for an heavier chopper

From what we've heard, army still wants a large attack helicopter with the main gun ammo being inside the airframe and they don't like the gun/optic setup of the T129, which AW249 keeps.* And I don't think AW249 can accommodate a 30mm gun like the M230.

*= But interestingly on this new image, gun is now again back to the front end of the airframe and optic is once again at the top. Design keeps changing. How it was until last year:

 

[Turkic]

Design keeps changing. How it was until last year:

View attachment 74247

It was much cooler
I wish we could choose the looks over performance.

 

[No Name]

From what we've heard, army still wants a large attack helicopter with the main gun ammo being inside the airframe and they don't like the gun/optic setup of the T129, which AW249 keeps.* And I don't think AW249 can accommodate a 30mm gun like the M230.

*= But interestingly on this new image, gun is now again back to the front end of the airframe and optic is once again at the top. Design keeps changing. How it was until last year:

View attachment 74247

Wait. Wouldn't that mean that the army wouldn't like the setup on the T-929 since it now resembles the T129?

 

[boredaf]

From what we've heard, army still wants a large attack helicopter with the main gun ammo being inside the airframe and they don't like the gun/optic setup of the T129, which AW249 keeps.* And I don't think AW249 can accommodate a 30mm gun like the M230.

*= But interestingly on this new image, gun is now again back to the front end of the airframe and optic is once again at the top. Design keeps changing. How it was until last year:

View attachment 74247

Remember when Temel Kotil said it would be delivered to the army in 2025? That was a good laugh.

 

[Sanchez]

Wait. Wouldn't that mean that the army wouldn't like the setup on the T-929 since it now resembles the T129?

I see it as new Hürkuş loading. TAI doesn't have the time and resources available to build it as such, they don't have a viable engine, they probably don't have the necessary back and forth with the army either. On top of that, increasing brain drain, continued lack of funding, claimed sunk cost of 500 million dollars on the development already and they are now probably stuck.

Don't let my enthusiasm showing from seeing the actual picture. A design changing this much in such a short time frame multiple times is a sign of disaster in the making. T925 majorly changed 4 times since 2018, T929 changed at least 3 times. And these are just the publicly available ones. It's not looking too good. T925 is claimed to make its first flight this year. Let's see.

 

[boredaf]

Don't let my enthusiasm showing from seeing the actual picture. A design changing this much in such a short time frame multiple times is a sign of disaster in the making. T925 majorly changed 4 times since 2018, T929 changed at least 3 times. And these are just the publicly available ones. It's not looking too good. T925 is claimed to make its first flight this year. Let's see.

I don't see how it is going to fly this year unless it is a barebone prototype that probably shouldn't be flying, like T929 did.

 

[Sanchez]

I don't see how it is going to fly this year unless it is a barebone prototype that probably shouldn't be flying, like T929 did.

For visibility's sake, a barebones T925 tech demonstrator will at least still kind of look like the "end product", being a barebones utility helicopter.

 

[Ripley]

I see it as new Hürkuş loading. TAI doesn't have the time and resources available to build it as such, they don't have a viable engine, they probably don't have the necessary back and forth with the army either. On top of that, increasing brain drain, continued lack of funding, claimed sunk cost of 500 million dollars on the development already and they are now probably stuck.

Don't let my enthusiasm showing from seeing the actual picture. A design changing this much in such a short time frame multiple times is a sign of disaster in the making. T925 majorly changed 4 times since 2018, T929 changed at least 3 times. And these are just the publicly available ones. It's not looking too good. T925 is claimed to make its first flight this year. Let's see.

Your “enthusiasm” surely don’t leave any room for dreams and wishful thinking

T925 was my favorite project among many others. I was sincerely hopeful but schedule changes, delays, lack of engine all were red flags. And when I heard they were redesigning to scale it down, that’s when my heart sank.

We really, really needed that beast.