Azerbaijan Armenia Tensions

[GoatsMilk]

And that is why Türkiye wasnt allowed in and the UK left,because if Türkiye joined it would rule the EU together with the UK.

There is an argument to be had that the UK needed Turkiye in the EU to break the monopoly France and Germany have over it. Some people have argued that is the main reason that britian was Turkiyes biggest backer. It may be the case.

However, when it comes to europeans i expect nothing good from them on the political scene. I personally believe that Turkiye is kept tagging along merely as a way to keep Turkiye stagnant. They cannot invade us and subjugate us, but at the same time they don't want us forming alliances with countries like Iran, Russia, China or even looking to create a Muslim bloc. This is why we are given certain benefits but at the same time are always treated like the ugly step child.

Why the major players of europe all support our enemies including communist terrorists and military allies of Russia. Why their collective media shits on us daily. When england wanted people to vote leave, they used Turkiye to get people to leave. I voted leave, because a united europe will be hell for non-white peoples. Its best europeans murder each other then unite and murder the world instead.

Despite all the talks of a democratic world order, to me things are not much different to how they have always been. Around the 6/7th century germanic/nordic tribes pretty much swept across the whole of europe and formed the ruling classes, by the 10/11th century one inter related family rules europe. It didnt matter if your spanish, italian, french, russian, polish you were ruled by an inter related germanic nordic class.

England and France had the hundred years war, where the same family were fighting over who sits on the thrones of both england and france. Then you get things like 80 years war, 30 years war, second 30 year war etc etc. This ruling dynasty of europe especially for the last 500 years have been nothing but warmongers.

Now this is important because when we look at Turkish/European relations in general europeans have always murdered each other, but against the Turk they nearly always found common cause.

Even when we find an alliance with one like germany in world war 1, they supported us only so much as it benefits them. They provided us no support against the Russians in the east for example. And thats the best alliance you can ever have with europeans. That it helps them, but no much that you can ever gain anything of note from it.

We see this today, in syria we watched them co-ordinate against us. In libya its the same shit. Some people claim italy is on Turkiyes side. Nope italy is just doing what the english insult them over. They have a foot in both camps, but they did nothing to stop the haftar assault only Turkiye did. They are keeping leverage for themselves that whichever way it goes they will benefit. But they have made near ZERO efforts to directly help the Turkish side.

Armenia we are all seeing in real time the united front.

But Armenia will go the same way that cyprus did. The troubles that plagued that island began about 20 years prior to the 74 liberation. In 64 Ecevit was ready to go in, the American president lyndon johnson wrote a letter threatening ecevit to do nothing. In that letter he even claimed that our rights as a guarantor state didnt exist, that if soviets attack us NATO wont help us and that Americans themselves may even directly engage us. Wilson of Britian even once claimed he would send 100,000 troops to the island to oppose any Turkish action. Basically threatening and intimidating Turkiye every step of the way, helping the greeks destroy the constitution and exterminating the Turkish cypriots.

Eventually when things reached boiling point in 1974 the americans did the sleazy thing they always do, realising that their threats were no longer going to hold Turks back, they wrote one diplomatic letter by shithead kissinger pretending now they are on board with it. Despite the fact they sanctioned and embargoed us over it and still to this day pressure us over it. Its good cop bad cop nonsense from the americans.

Its a similar game to the PKK in syria, not so long ago when Turks finally realised its life and death and we cant allow the americans/russians to create a pkk state in our east, trump threatened us and their military general even claimed that Turkish assets would be legitimate targets. Anyway Turkey goes in, now the world claims america allowed it. No they didnt allow it they just realised they are not going to start a fully fledged war against Turkiye over it. Same as with Cyprus. Same with Azerbaijan.

But since then what do they do? They constantly create trouble for us, now we cannot even get f16's, why because were in syria. Not because of sweden or anything else.

Armenia will go the same way, they the western powers will accept the status quo but they will constantly look to shit stir and create trouble for us.

I guarantee you this, this war will be a new non stop genocide accusation going forward against azerbaijan. 50 years from you will still hear about this fake genocide and the same usual instigators will be pushing it.

Just like today no one cares for the details for the decades of troubles/terrorism by the armenians before 1915, the same will happen to Azerbaijan. No one will care about the details they will just here the tagline "genocide" and anyone who questions it they will simply tag as a "genocide denier".

Now i dont expect anything better from the west, but Turks cannot remain ignorant we have to learn about what has happened to all of us, then we can stop making the same mistakes going foward. If your an Azerbaijani you have to learn about Cyprus and vice versa. We have to start studying our enemies and learning their histories.

 

[TR_123456]

There is an argument to be had that the UK needed Turkiye in the EU to break the monopoly France and Germany have over it. Some people have argued that is the main reason that britian was Turkiyes biggest backer. It may be the case.

However, when it comes to europeans i expect nothing good from them on the political scene. I personally believe that Turkiye is kept tagging along merely as a way to keep Turkiye stagnant. They cannot invade us and subjugate us, but at the same time they don't want us forming alliances with countries like Iran, Russia, China or even looking to create a Muslim bloc. This is why we are given certain benefits but at the same time are always treated like the ugly step child.

Why the major players of europe all support our enemies including communist terrorists and military allies of Russia. Why their collective media shits on us daily. When england wanted people to vote leave, they used Turkiye to get people to leave. I voted leave, because a united europe will be hell for non-white peoples. Its best europeans murder each other then unite and murder the world instead.

Despite all the talks of a democratic world order, to me things are not much different to how they have always been. Around the 6/7th century germanic/nordic tribes pretty much swept across the whole of europe and formed the ruling classes, by the 10/11th century one inter related family rules europe. It didnt matter if your spanish, italian, french, russian, polish you were ruled by an inter related germanic nordic class.

England and France had the hundred years war, where the same family were fighting over who sits on the thrones of both england and france. Then you get things like 80 years war, 30 years war, second 30 year war etc etc. This ruling dynasty of europe especially for the last 500 years have been nothing but warmongers.

Now this is important because when we look at Turkish/European relations in general europeans have always murdered each other, but against the Turk they nearly always found common cause.

Even when we find an alliance with one like germany in world war 1, they supported us only so much as it benefits them. They provided us no support against the Russians in the east for example. And thats the best alliance you can ever have with europeans. That it helps them, but no much that you can ever gain anything of note from it.

We see this today, in syria we watched them co-ordinate against us. In libya its the same shit. Some people claim italy is on Turkiyes side. Nope italy is just doing what the english insult them over. They have a foot in both camps, but they did nothing to stop the haftar assault only Turkiye did. They are keeping leverage for themselves that whichever way it goes they will benefit. But they have made near ZERO efforts to directly help the Turkish side.

Armenia we are all seeing in real time the united front.

But Armenia will go the same way that cyprus did. The troubles that plagued that island began about 20 years prior to the 74 liberation. In 64 Ecevit was ready to go in, the American president lyndon johnson wrote a letter threatening ecevit to do nothing. In that letter he even claimed that our rights as a guarantor state didnt exist, that if soviets attack us NATO wont help us and that Americans themselves may even directly engage us. Wilson of Britian even once claimed he would send 100,000 troops to the island to oppose any Turkish action. Basically threatening and intimidating Turkiye every step of the way, helping the greeks destroy the constitution and exterminating the Turkish cypriots.

Eventually when things reached boiling point in 1974 the americans did the sleazy thing they always do, realising that their threats were no longer going to hold Turks back, they wrote one diplomatic letter by shithead kissinger pretending now they are on board with it. Despite the fact they sanctioned and embargoed us over it and still to this day pressure us over it. Its good cop bad cop nonsense from the americans.

Its a similar game to the PKK in syria, not so long ago when Turks finally realised its life and death and we cant allow the americans/russians to create a pkk state in our east, trump threatened us and their military general even claimed that Turkish assets would be legitimate targets. Anyway Turkey goes in, now the world claims america allowed it. No they didnt allow it they just realised they are not going to start a fully fledged war against Turkiye over it. Same as with Cyprus. Same with Azerbaijan.

But since then what do they do? They constantly create trouble for us, now we cannot even get f16's, why because were in syria. Not because of sweden or anything else.

Armenia will go the same way, they the western powers will accept the status quo but they will constantly look to shit stir and create trouble for us.

I guarantee you this, this war will be a new non stop genocide accusation going forward against azerbaijan. 50 years from you will still hear about this fake genocide and the same usual instigators will be pushing it.

Just like today no one cares for the details for the decades of troubles/terrorism by the armenians before 1915, the same will happen to Azerbaijan. No one will care about the details they will just here the tagline "genocide" and anyone who questions it they will simply tag as a "genocide denier".

Now i dont expect anything better from the west, but Turks cannot remain ignorant we have to learn about what has happened to all of us, then we can stop making the same mistakes going foward. If your an Azerbaijani you have to learn about Cyprus and vice versa. We have to start studying our enemies and learning their histories.

You are underestimating your country,we have come to a point where direct confrontation or sanctions embargo's,siding with or arming enemies or adversaries dont work anymore.
Take a look at France arming Armenia,for what?
France as a power has become a joke under Macron,nobody takes it serious anymore.
We have to stop playing the victim role,we are not.
''They do this they do that to us'',dramatizing it is slave mentality.
We all know whats going on,why emphasizing it all the time?
We have noted it and moved on,nothing more.
They can only delay or slow us down but they cant avoid us coming there.
Patience is requiered,just be patient.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

You are underestimating your country,we have come to a point where direct confrontation or sanctions embargo's,siding with or arming enemies or adversaries dont work anymore.
Take a look at France arming Armenia,for what?
France as a power has become a joke under Macron,nobody takes it serious anymore.
We have to stop playing the victim role,we are not.
''They do this they do that to us'',dramatizing it is slave mentality.
We all know whats going on,why emphasizing it all the time?
We have noted it and moved on,nothing more.
They can only delay or slow us down but they cant avoid us coming there.
Patience is requiered,just be patient.

Exactly, some of us here should really stop the victim mentality here. Turks always had many enemies, we never lacked that.

The saying "sen türk olduğunu unutsanda düşmanın asla unutmaz" isn't said for nothing. It has its reasons.

What we need now is engines for all platforms and Nukes with ICBMs, then they can support as many terrorists as they want.

 

[GoatsMilk]

You are underestimating your country,we have come to a point where direct confrontation or sanctions embargo's,siding with or arming enemies or adversaries dont work anymore.
Take a look at France arming Armenia,for what?
France as a power has become a joke under Macron,nobody takes it serious anymore.
We have to stop playing the victim role,we are not.
''They do this they do that to us'',dramatizing it is slave mentality.
We all know whats going on,why emphasizing it all the time?
We have noted it and moved on,nothing more.
They can only delay or slow us down but they cant avoid us coming there.
Patience is requiered,just be patient.

I think your missing my point, the point is not so much about pointing out what they are doing, the point is as Turks most of us are not even aware its taking place. That's the danger, nothing to do with being a victim. The slave doesn't take the effort to learn about his enemies and what they are doing. He doesn't take the time to read the books they put out, to investigate the agenda against his nation. The victim doesn't waste his time and energies exposing their games and trying to illuminate his people.

I'm coming to the realisation that our nation is becoming too big for them. As a result the instigations are becoming more numerous and intense. And i feel our people (not all) are naïve and ignorant to it, they are desperate to be accepted by a world that has never accepted them. This makes us ignore the dangers facing our nation.

Many people love America, but America is what gave us FETO, its what sustains the PKK. Its the primary nation that started the anti-Islam agenda. Where it equates terrorist and Muslim as one and the same thing. It doesn't matter if your not Muslim, if your Turk your a Muslim to them.

Now if our people and our politicians understood this, would they have been so stupid as to join their war against Assad? Would we be so stupid as to believe that discussions over Cyprus will bear fruit? No we wouldn't and as a result we develop different strategies to succeed.

We would know for example that in every theatre, the moment we defend our interests they will be against us as much a geopolitics allows it. Nothing will take us by surprise.

Remember, i point these things out because its in the interest that the more informed our people are collectively, the less plots can succeed. If the common Turk knew about FETO as an example they could have never infiltrated the state and then worked to undermine her from within. Imagine we even had our media "ZAMAN" telling Turks to accept the Armenian allegations and Kurds deserve a Kurdistan.

Remember we cannot be ignorant, otherwise you get failures like Syria. Or you make mistakes like in Cyprus. Know your enemy.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Exactly, some of us here should really stop the victim mentality here. Turks always had many enemies, we never lacked that.

The saying "sen türk olduğunu unutsanda düşmanın asla unutmaz" isn't said for nothing. It has its reasons.

What we need now is engines for all platforms and Nukes with ICBMs, then they can support as many terrorists as they want.

Missing the point.

Just yesterday our nation was almost entirely taken over by FETO, why? because were ignorant of the games our enemies play against us.

Lets say no erdogan/feto fight, today you all think the nation is free. Its not its completely taken over. But because we think its free nothing can be done to fight or oppose it.

When i share the history of things that has happened towards Turks, its nothing to do with being a victim, its to do with trying to share the knowledge that we don't make the same mistakes.

And on top of this have you ever seen me beg for someones help? do i do what the armenians or greeks do want Russia, US, Isreal, Europe to fight our enemies for us? No! All i ask is that Turks work to come together and that collectively we face these problems.

And on a side not, yes all technologies should be available, timing and politics plays a part. But remember those weapons would not protect you against something like FETO. Who know what other entities they will try to use from within the nation to subvert her.

Turks have to be diligent and just like Churchills said the further back in history you go the further forward you can see. We have over a thousand years of direct history with Europeans, learn it.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

Missing the point.

Just yesterday our nation was almost entirely taken over by FETO, why? because were ignorant of the games our enemies play against us.

Lets say no erdogan/feto fight, today you all think the nation is free. Its not its completely taken over. But because we think its free nothing can be done to fight or oppose it.

When i share the history of things that has happened towards Turks, its nothing to do with being a victim, its to do with trying to share the knowledge that we don't make the same mistakes.

And on top of this have you ever seen me beg for someones help? do i do what the armenians or greeks do want Russia, US, Isreal, Europe to fight our enemies for us? No! All i ask is that Turks work to come together and that collectively we face these problems.

Then I've misunderstood you and I apologize.

The biggest problem currently that I see in this Nation is that the "leaders" try to change the demographics and no one is doing anything of relevance...

Everyone accepts it in one way or another while at the same time Turks make no kids anymore. This will be devastating in the future if nothing will be done about it.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Then I've misunderstood you and I apologize.

The biggest problem currently that I see in this Nation is that the "leaders" try to change the demographics and no one is doing anything of relevance...

Everyone accepts it in one way or another while at the same time Turks make no kids anymore. This will be devastating in the future if nothing will be done about it.

i wont go into this as to not further derail the azerbaijan thread. But i think you know why this is happening.

 

[Barry]

yeh it's not about being a victim. It's about seeing the games being played against us.

Too many Turks have short memories or a poor understanding of the positions other nations take against us. I have family in Cyprus who still think reunification is the best option for TCs, Greek Cypriots are their brothers and the EU is the best, despite both groups working day and night to demonise, dehumanise and delegitimise their existence. They don't see the instruments of hate being employed against them. They're the house slaves that run into the master's house as it burns down to save the dog.

ontopic: Dying at the internet salt over Azerbaijan asking Turkiye to be involved in these EU-AZ-ARM talks and then telling France will play no part in future discussions.

 

[GoatsMilk]

yeh it's not about being a victim. It's about seeing the games being played against us.

Too many Turks have short memories or a poor understanding of the positions other nations take against us. I have family in Cyprus who still think reunification is the best option for TCs, Greek Cypriots are their brothers and the EU is the best, despite both groups working day and night to demonise, dehumanise and delegitimise their existence. They don't see the instruments of hate being employed against them. They're the house slaves that run into the master's house as it burns down to save the dog.

ontopic: Dying at the internet salt over Azerbaijan asking Turkiye to be involved in these EU-AZ-ARM talks and then telling France will play no part in future discussions.

perfect example of what I was trying to get at. Perfect example of how someone like you couldn't fall into their traps. When you know the reality, you cannot fall for their illusions. However the converse is true, your family will readily dive into the danger due to their ignorance. Maybe tomorrow they see Turkiye herself as the enemy. The only way to counter this is to educate them.

Its why i keep pointing out that Turks must educate each other, they must learn about each others problems. Nothing to do with being a victim, its the complete opposite. I want to see our rise above all these bastards who cause us trouble.

 

[Rooxbar]

Every "enemy" can be turned into a neutral or friendly position by smart image-management and business relations or other methods of propaganda, on a public opinion level. I hate the essentialist outlook of "they hate us because of who we are and this will always be like this". They may say they hate us for who we are, but it's true contingently and due to conjecture, not necessarily. Europeans have been killing each other savagely for as far as history goes back. The happy-go-lucky relations among European nations and the seeming unity is only due to the post Bretton Woods welfare state prosperity, and will go out of picture with a flick of a finger, bringing old bitter rivalries back which are already simmering below (and above from time to time) the surface. There are all sorts of border disputes, ethnic strife and the like which is waiting to leap back to the forefront of the stage of history. So there's no actual "they" to hate us; some of that "they" can easily turn to see "us" as closer to them than other parts of that "they".

The dominating experience of terminally online people from the citizens of other nations is through their dialogue with equally terminally online people of other nations; and terminally online people tend to be politics-obsessed and socially isolated most of the time, and being politics-obsessed and social isolation brings with it rigid extremist positions. They yap about these extremist racially-based opinions on the internet. This is not representative of the population at large. A lot of people have very superficial apolitical attitudes. Even those with political attitudes are very confused and can change outlook very fast. The essentialist outlook of "x western country = eternal hater of Turkey" is a pet peeve of mine. Someone who meets me, has no chance but to like me and the country and nation that I represent (I'm that charming ) unless they have already very established biases.But even those will be swayed, and they are the minority. So if one person can change opinions, imagine how much power there's to the rest of that nation, the nation's government, the shrewdness of their diplomacy, language, etc. These are all influential factors; to deny this in favor of the essentialist, eternal and invariable view of the world is to deny history and reality itself.

Having a whiny, overly sensitive "you guys inherently hate me because you're westerners" attitude helps nobody. Being aware of public opinion, history, etc. is important but you should never let it emotionally impact your behavior. Being above it is a factor in overcoming and changing public perception. Imagine the impact of two scenarios to onlookers: in the first one a Turk reacts to hatred by overly sensitive defensive posture and anger; in the other scenario, he reacts with calm indifference like "yeah well ok, whatever". But I'm not talking about arguing on policy and politics, that's a separate matter. I see a lot of stuff online in English language outlets by Turkish users about "anti-Turkish attitude". People talk about it a bit too much. Instead of talking and whining about "anti-Turkish hatred and bias", challenge it with information and activism. But talking about it is much easier than challenging it because there's no institutional power behind those who want to challenge it so they feel alone and defeated and hence choose the much easier path of whining about it. Whining about it will not change anything. It can only exacerbate it.

P.S. Look how much public opinion about China has changed in the past three years due to Covid and the U.S. starting its Neo-McCarthyite campaign to prepare the American mind for the future confrontation as the usefulness of China as a trade partner ran its course to be replaced with the image of China as the main villain and the fear-mongering excuse of the military-industrial complex.

Compare that to how a similar propaganda campaign by Western media is failing to produce the same results for Russia, a country which had much more negative image right after the second world war, compared to now. They are playing the propaganda game good; not perfect but good. Russians play to neo-Nazis, they play to nationalists, they play to Marxists. They sow division, they adopt anti-LGBT stances to appeal to that part of the Western population. They try whatever they have. They have telegram channels, t.v. channels. paid trolls, and a free army of English-speaking Russian nationalists who spin their narrative.

On another note, Look at how much opinions of favoribility of USSR and its role in WWII compared to U.S. has changed in France. Opinions and outlooks are much more malleable than you think. And public opinion permeates policy and administration much more than you think also.

The deep historical roots of antagonistic attitudes towards Turkey is real, and is shown in practice everywhere we turn our heads, but just do this thought experiment and imagine we did the Cyprus operation today rather than in 1974. People talk of embargoes and stuff, but the Western response to the 1974 operation was rather muted if you read detailed history of the matter. Do another thought experiment and imagine a Turkey that is richer than all other European nations. How much more indifferent you'd be to Western attitude to Turkey and how much that indifference would impact their attitude? Do you think the public perception of Turkey and attitudes towards it by Western powers is the same it was in 1930s or has it changed? What about 2000s? Essentialist views and outlook lead to ossification of strategic flexibility and missing of practical opportunities. It's horrendous. Nobody who has worked in the foreign policy apparatus will have an essentialist outlook because they see everyone is willing to cooperate with everyone else, to backstab every other country.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Every "enemy" can be turned into a neutral or friendly position by smart image-management and business relations or other methods of propaganda, on a public opinion level. I hate the essentialist outlook of "they hate us because of who we are and this will always be like this". They may say they hate us for who we are, but it's true contingently and due to conjecture, not necessarily. Europeans have been killing each other savagely for as far as history goes back. The happy-go-lucky relations among European nations and the seeming unity is only due to the post Bretton Woods welfare state prosperity, and will go out of picture with a flick of a finger, bringing old bitter rivalries back which are already simmering below (and above from time to time) the surface. There are all sorts of border disputes, ethnic strife and the like which is waiting to leap back to the forefront of the stage of history. So there's no actual "they" to hate us; some of that "they" can easily turn to see "us" as closer to them than other parts of that "they".

The dominating experience of terminally online people from the citizens of other nations is through their dialogue with equally terminally online people of other nations; and terminally online people tend to be politics-obsessed and socially isolated most of the time, and being politics-obsessed and social isolation brings with it rigid extremist positions. They yap about these extremist racially-based opinions on the internet. This is not representative of the population at large. A lot of people have very superficial apolitical attitudes. Even those with political attitudes are very confused and can change outlook very fast. The essentialist outlook of "x western country = eternal hater of Turkey" is a pet peeve of mine. Someone who meets me, has no chance but to like me and the country and nation that I represent (I'm that charming ) unless they have already very established biases.But even those will be swayed, and they are the minority. So if one person can change opinions, imagine how much power there's to the rest of that nation, the nation's government, the shrewdness of their diplomacy, language, etc. These are all influential factors; to deny this in favor of the essentialist, eternal and invariable view of the world is to deny history and reality itself.

Having a whiny, overly sensitive "you guys inherently hate me because you're westerners" attitude helps nobody. Being aware of public opinion, history, etc. is important but you should never let it emotionally impact your behavior. Being above it is a factor in overcoming and changing public perception. Imagine the impact of two scenarios to onlookers: in the first one a Turk reacts to hatred by overly sensitive defensive posture and anger; in the other scenario, he reacts with calm indifference like "yeah well ok, whatever". But I'm not talking about arguing on policy and politics, that's a separate matter. I see a lot of stuff online in English language outlets by Turkish users about "anti-Turkish attitude". People talk about it a bit too much. Instead of talking and whining about "anti-Turkish hatred and bias", challenge it with information and activism. But talking about it is much easier than challenging it because there's no institutional power behind those who want to challenge it so they feel alone and defeated and hence choose the much easier path of whining about it. Whining about it will not change anything. It can only exacerbate it.

P.S. Look how much public opinion about China has changed in the past three years due to Covid and the U.S. starting its Neo-McCarthyite campaign to prepare the American mind for the future confrontation as the usefulness of China as a trade partner ran its course to be replaced with the image of China as the main villain and the fear-mongering excuse of the military-industrial complex.

Compare that to how a similar propaganda campaign by Western media is failing to produce the same results for Russia, a country which had much more negative image right after the second world war, compared to now. They are playing the propaganda game good; not perfect but good. Russians play to neo-Nazis, they play to nationalists, they play to Marxists. They sow division, they adopt anti-LGBT stances to appeal to that part of the Western population. They try whatever they have. They have telegram channels, t.v. channels. paid trolls, and a free army of English-speaking Russian nationalists who spin their narrative.

On another note, Look at how much opinions of favoribility of USSR and its role in WWII compared to U.S. has changed in France. Opinions and outlooks are much more malleable than you think. And public opinion permeates policy and administration much more than you think also.

The deep historical roots of antagonistic attitudes towards Turkey is real, and is shown in practice everywhere we turn our heads, but just do this thought experiment and imagine we did the Cyprus operation today rather than in 1974. People talk of embargoes and stuff, but the Western response to the 1974 operation was rather muted if you read detailed history of the matter. Do another thought experiment and imagine a Turkey that is richer than all other European nations. How much more indifferent you'd be to Western attitude to Turkey and how much that indifference would impact their attitude? Do you think the public perception of Turkey and attitudes towards it by Western powers is the same it was in 1930s or has it changed? What about 2000s? Essentialist views and outlook lead to ossification of strategic flexibility and missing of practical opportunities. It's horrendous. Nobody who has worked in the foreign policy apparatus will have an essentialist outlook because they see everyone is willing to cooperate with everyone else, to backstab every other country.

I'm not worried by what people without power and influence think. My concern is what the power structures think. That's what I'm trying to point out. Because what they think effects us. What they think is what gives way to nations supporting communist terrorists against us. What they think gives way to Armenians been shown as the victim instead of the aggressor. What they think gives way to silly maps like the Seville map being incorporated into the EU as something serious. What they think gave way to empowering the greeks to attempt the genocide of the Turkish cypriots and the entire annexation of the island. If you really think about it, it was them power structures that were constantly blowing smoke up armenias arse that gave them the confidence to think they were going to take land from Azerbaijan and Turkiye.

What they think gives way to real plots and agendas being employed against our nation. These agendas are consistant. Didnt matter who was in charge of the USA, the PKK agenda has been consistently used against us by them.

In England the general perception is that Turks are slaughtering Kurds and that Kurds should have their own nation meaning that south eastern Turkiye should go them. The reason they think this is because the power structure of the UK is on board with the kurdistan agenda. It filters down to the common man via their instruments.

If we keep burying our heads in the sand we will eventually get swept aside. Now if you want to keep getting surprised and keep falling into their traps then ignore everything i have to say.

That's not a surprise, Turks went from Super power 300 years ago, to almost being conquered entirely and enslaved by Europeans a hundred years ago. So the penchant to fail spectacularly is also there in our race.

What i suggest are things that can help us avoid failure. No one who loves his people is going to warn his people of dangers facing his people.

 

[GoatsMilk]

yeh it's not about being a victim. It's about seeing the games being played against us.

Too many Turks have short memories or a poor understanding of the positions other nations take against us. I have family in Cyprus who still think reunification is the best option for TCs, Greek Cypriots are their brothers and the EU is the best, despite both groups working day and night to demonise, dehumanise and delegitimise their existence. They don't see the instruments of hate being employed against them. They're the house slaves that run into the master's house as it burns down to save the dog.

ontopic: Dying at the internet salt over Azerbaijan asking Turkiye to be involved in these EU-AZ-ARM talks and then telling France will play no part in future discussions.

This point so eloquently explains what i have been trying to show by pointing out the history.

I've been to Northern Cyprus quite a few times, in general Turks from Turkiye are disliked. Cypriots see them as middle eastern and different to them, because primarily the people who migrate to that island from Turkiye tend to be uneducated Kurds from eastern Turkiye. The impression i got was that the country was 50/50, half of it for Turkiye and the other half for Europe.

Now not so long ago the greeks were attempting the illegal annexation of the island, the ethnic cleansing of the Turkish Cypriots. They destroyed the constitution which meant under guarantor rights Turkiye had the right to intervene. But Turkiye couldn't because the Americans, French and English as well as the soviets constantly threatened and intimidated Turkiye not to. Like i say go read the 64 letter sent to ecvit, which they called in a diplomatic talk an equivalent atomic bomb being dropped on Ankara.

Anyway when Turkiye eventually went in the Cypriots Turks couldn't be happier, their love for Turkiye was at an all time high. The fear and hell they lived through was over.

50 years later and here we are today where many Cypriot Turks see Turkiye as the enemy, they see the greeks as their brothers and friends. What happened?

The geopolitics of it all is that Turkiye was to hemmed in. Being in Cyprus protects the Anatolian under belly of Turkiye and also allows Turkiye to potentially project power into the levant. Where America's vassal Isreal exists.

That's the simple answer as why the world was threatening Turkiye not to do anything and why they all turned a blind eye to what the greeks were doing.

So they failed, Turkiye went in and they couldn't annex the island which would then be set up to be used against us.

So they have changed track, the cypriot Turks have come under immense propaganda, their eventual aim is that the Turkish cypriots themselves will push Turkiye out. Once that happens the entirety of the island would be absorbed by the greek government.

Now why is it important to understand these things? Because if you understand these things you will know that a thousand years of talks will achieve nothing. Just like in Azerbaijan what 30 years of talks with super powers the USA, Russia and France couldn't do, was achieve in 44 days of war. And the moment Azerbaijan moved they all screamed and threatened Azerbaijan to stop.

You will also know that Turkiye should have been active in countering the EU propaganda, the Turkish cypriots should have been taught in their schools all about the troubles. But Turks are not taught their histories, while greeks and armenians for example are taught non-stop lies about how evil Turks are.

Long story short we have to know our enemies. And once you understand the past the next hundred years becomes easy to predict in terms of what they will do and the positions they will take in relation to you.

 

[Rooxbar]

I'm not worried by what people without power and influence think. My concern is what the power structures think. That's what I'm trying to point out. Because what they think effects us. What they think is what gives way to nations supporting communist terrorists against us. What they think gives way to Armenians been shown as the victim instead of the aggressor. What they think gives way to silly maps like the Seville map being incorporated into the EU as something serious. What they think gave way to empowering the greeks to attempt the genocide of the Turkish cypriots and the entire annexation of the island. If you really think about it, it was them power structures that were constantly blowing smoke up armenias arse that gave them the confidence to think they were going to take land from Azerbaijan and Turkiye.

What they think gives way to real plots and agendas being employed against our nation. These agendas are consistant. Didnt matter who was in charge of the USA, the PKK agenda has been consistently used against us by them.

In England the general perception is that Turks are slaughtering Kurds and that Kurds should have their own nation meaning that south eastern Turkiye should go them. The reason they think this is because the power structure of the UK is on board with the kurdistan agenda. It filters down to the common man via their instruments.

If we keep burying our heads in the sand we will eventually get swept aside. Now if you want to keep getting surprised and keep falling into their traps then ignore everything i have to say.

That's not a surprise, Turks went from Super power 300 years ago, to almost being conquered entirely and enslaved by Europeans a hundred years ago. So the penchant to fail spectacularly is also there in our race.

What i suggest are things that can help us avoid failure. No one who loves his people is going to warn his people of dangers facing his people.

Well, as you may very well know power structures don't have brains so they can't think. What you might mean by that is long-term plans and strategies of the institutions. They are also determined by people. And those people also follow the zeitgeist and are influenced by culture at large. As institutional culture they might be more rigid and resistant to change, but the cultures are themselves the results of the culmination of attitudes of bygone ages. Insofar as their institutional culture and long-term strategic plans might differ from general public culture, they might be influenced by two main factors: interests and lobbying. So "their inherent and eternal hatred" cannot be a factor, because if it was, it would be an inheritance from general culture, not due to interests and lobbying groups. And hence it is subject to interests and lobbying groups, it's not an ideologically rigid construction. Unless you dispute this and think it is ideological, then you have to admit that how this power structures "think" is due to general culture and parallel to public opinion. Then you'd have to concede to my earlier points about its malleability.

There's been a lot of ups and downs to different western nations relations to PKK. This has had a direct correlation with either the levels at which the Turkish deep state had been compromised, or on the other hand how smartly our diplomatic apparatus has done its job. It's not without reason that PKK is on the terror list of many Western nations and that Ocalan was arrested with the help of CIA and Mossad. You think they would put that same group in those lists if they were formed and started their attack a couple of years ago? You think YPG would have the power and influence it has as an ally of U.S. without the decisions of AKP, Erdogan and Davutoglu at the outset of Syrian civil war? You think the world just goes on its anti-Turkish path irrespective of our actions?

All of the examples you provide are very nuanced detailed cases, with many aspects that do not capitulate to the oversimplified version of reality you present. What you can change is your action based on detailed learned analysis of the situations.

In England the general perception is that Turks are slaughtering Kurds and that Kurds should have their own nation meaning that south eastern Turkiye should go them. The reason they think this is because the power structure of the UK is on board with the kurdistan agenda. It filters down to the common man via their instruments.

In UK the crafting of that general perception has happened in the past 15 years or so. It has been helped immensely by the propaganda war that Kurdish immigrants and PKK sympathizers have run in those countries. If all of that was going to happen regardless of their attempts because UK "power structures" mandated it, why bother then with movies, songs, art pieces, journalism, think tanks, social media campaigns, etc. UK power structures strategic thinking might be sympathetic to those plans, but it is sympathetic because of the zeitgeist that has influenced and shaped the human constituents of those structures, along with its perception of its own interests. Even those perceptions can be influences, let alone public perception.

What you can do after realizing it is to try to change that, instead of the fatalist essentialist oversimplified reading of the inherent and eternal attitudes of western power structures. The former is much harder, that's why most choose tha latter much easier stance.

50 years later and here we are today where many Cypriot Turks see Turkiye as the enemy, they see the greeks as their brothers and friends. What happened?

So what happened? Cypriot Turks also have the anti-Turkish Western attitude now? What's the analysis here?

Now why is it important to understand these things? Because if you understand these things you will know that a thousand years of talks will achieve nothing. Just like in Azerbaijan what 30 years of talks with super powers the USA, Russia and France couldn't do, was achieve in 44 days of war. And the moment Azerbaijan moved they all screamed and threatened Azerbaijan to stop.

The 44 day war was only possible because of how well Aliyev played both Russia, U.S. and Israel. Without the backing of Israeli lobby, the institutional pressure would be much higher on Azerbaijan. You think U.S. and Europe actually tried to stop Azerbaijan in this past operation? They're doing empty lip service for their immigrant Armenian population, they didn't do shit. They feel like they have to do that lip service because of pr.

You will also know that Turkiye should have been active in countering the EU propaganda, the Turkish cypriots should have been taught in their schools all about the troubles. But Turks are not taught their histories, while greeks and armenians for example are taught non-stop lies about how evil Turks are.

Whose fault is that? We can not do good pr for our own fucking population, let alone for the rest of the world. But good education brings with itself smart pragmatic attitude, not essentialist oversimplifed narratives. During the byzantine-ottoman wars of the first couple of centuries of Ottoman rule, Ottomans always had Christian allies, and a lot of Byzantine mercenaries in their ranks. Throughout the ages, we have allied with Britain against French, with France against Britaina and Habsburgs, with various Italian city-states against other city-states and Holy Roman Empire, so on and so forth. Ottomans helped reformation rebellions. Turned out to be the wrong strategy, but it seemed like a pragmatic option to sow discord. The imagining of west as a unified front is the result of essentialist thinking and blocks pragmatist thinking. Knowledge is power. If you have the essentialist attitude you will never bother to learn about the fault lines in the relations of Germans, French and the British to exploit them. A good reading of good history books will dispell childish outlooks about constant and consistent agendas. There are no such things. I don't have the time to go into it case by case but one thing I've learned studying history: Reality is stranger than fiction.

 

[Afif]

This is very well articulated, I couldn't have said it better.

The same essentialist view I see the religious fundamentalists always applying to the West. They see the Iraq war as an actual Crusade, Military interventions in Afghanistan, Libya and other places as an actual war on 'Islam'.

This Inability to see the world as it is, and failure to understand how Western institutions, broader systems and contemporary world order actually works, is precisely becuase of the narrowness and refusal to see the world except through your whatever preconceived or indoctrinated point of view.

 

[Rooxbar]

This is very well articulated, I couldn't have said it better.

The same essentialist view I see the religious fundamentalists always applying to the West. They see the Iraq war as an actual Crusade, Military interventions in Afghanistan, Libya and other places as an actual war on 'Islam'.

Nobody can accuse me of naivete in regards to the West though. I'm steeped in books and resources on clandestine plans, intelligence operations, etc. by Western countries. For example the French government was helping its timber import companies pay bribes to terrorist groups in Central African Republic to facilitate trade from the areas they controlled, and later they were in a bidding war with Germany and China over who can help their respective Terrorist group seize more territory, effectively funding a multiparty civil war in that republic. There are several levels of irony there, but the one about the French intelligence service helping French corpos bribe people while the so-called laissez-faire outlook is pushed hard by most western economic institutions will escape most. U.S. supreme court literally voted in favor of Nestle, Mars and Hersheys using slave labor in Mali and Ivory Coast, based on the technicality that they are using front organizations based in those countries, hence being outside of U.S. jurisdiction. Very few in this country have scoured as much of the Chelsea Manning and Sibel Edmonds revelations as I have. Few people are aware of the lengths U.S. judicial system will go to protect the likes of Chevron and DuPont, effectively making examples out of lawyers like Rob Billot and Steven Donzinger who go after American Interests, defending the people of Ecuador and the like. Currently reading the recent book on Mossad operations inside Iran, about their massage parlor chains established with the help of European countries, Eurpean intelligence service's completely cynical disregard for human life in their blind faith and complete cooperation with Mossad. I say this to show I have no delusions about Western claims of "human rights" and shit like that. But understanding the world as is, is very different from imposing your preconceived notions on world affairs. The latter causes you to distort reality to fit into the picture of reality you have in your mind, which leads to defeat. God sells secrets for sweat. Read! Iqra for god's sake!

 

[dBSPL]

Q: To what extent would Russia's recognition of the Turkish Republic of Cyprus - along with the states in its axis - affect the geopolitics of the eastern Mediterranean, and to what extent would it neutralize the isolation of the northern part of the island? I am not only talking about trade etc, but mostly about the Turkish Cypriot gaining supporters in the UNSC, 1 or 2 seats.

Q2: Do you think Russia will give up the annexation of Crimea in future?

Q3: Why is Russia taking a clear political stance in favor of Azerbaijan regarding the opening of the Zangazur corridor?

 

[GoatsMilk]

Nobody can accuse me of naivete in regards to the West though. I'm steeped in books and resources on clandestine plans, intelligence operations, etc. by Western countries. For example the French government was helping its timber import companies pay bribes to terrorist groups in Central African Republic to facilitate trade from the areas they controlled, and later they were in a bidding war with Germany and China over who can help their respective Terrorist group seize more territory, effectively funding a multiparty civil war in that republic. There are several levels of irony there, but the one about the French intelligence service helping French corpos bribe people while the so-called laissez-faire outlook is pushed hard by most western economic institutions will escape most. U.S. supreme court literally voted in favor of Nestle, Mars and Hersheys using slave labor in Mali and Ivory Coast, based on the technicality that they are using front organizations based in those countries, hence being outside of U.S. jurisdiction. Very few in this country have scoured as much of the Chelsea Manning and Sibel Edmonds revelations as I have. Few people are aware of the lengths U.S. judicial system will go to protect the likes of Chevron and DuPont, effectively making examples out of lawyers like Rob Billot and Steven Donzinger who go after American Interests, defending the people of Ecuador and the like. Currently reading the recent book on Mossad operations inside Iran, about their massage parlor chains established with the help of European countries, Eurpean intelligence service's completely cynical disregard for human life in their blind faith and complete cooperation with Mossad. I say this to show I have no delusions about Western claims of "human rights" and shit like that. But understanding the world as is, is very different from imposing your preconceived notions on world affairs. The latter causes you to distort reality to fit into the picture of reality you have in your mind, which leads to defeat. God sells secrets for sweat. Read! Iqra for god's sake!

To be honest you are naive in regards to the west. Its clear you haven't even read the books by professor Carrol Quigley. Everything you say runs counter to what he knows and states in his books about the west. And this man should know he was mentor to several US presidents and part of the clubs he wrote about.

Read the books the enemy puts out, they don't hide what their doing or attempting to do.

 

[Rooxbar]

To be honest you are naive in regards to the west. Its clear you haven't even read the books by professor Carrol Quigley. Everything you say runs counter to what he knows and states in his books about the west. And this man should know he was mentor to several US presidents and part of the clubs he wrote about.

Read the books the enemy puts out, they don't hide what their doing or attempting to do.

Reality is like a billion piece puzzle. You read a couple of books and it gives you pieces about a certain part of reality. You put them together and it looks like a lamb in the meadow. You're like "ah, I got it". It's about a meadow, it will probably have flowers and trees and clear sky in other pieces. You read a couple hundred more books, and a billion more pieces come in and you realize it's a depiction of Dante's Divine Comedy. Your part was a small portion of heaven. Continue to read. Read Ottoman history first. Read İnalcık, Uzunçarşılı, Ortaylı, Şevket Pamuk, Bernard Lewis, Klaus Kreiser, Roderic Davison, Carter Findley, Daniel Stolz, Daniel Goffman, Donald Quataert, Brian Davies, R. C. Anderson. A lot of what these people write will be wrong but you only realize that if you read other wrong things by those other ones.

 

[Afif]

I urge mods not to delete the discussion here. Please move it to 'Foreign policy and Geopolitics' or 'Geopolitics, History and Analysis' thread.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Reality is like a billion piece puzzle. You read a couple of books and it gives you pieces about a certain part of reality. You put them together and it looks like a lamb in the meadow. You're like "ah, I got it". It's about a meadow, it will probably have flowers and trees and clear sky in other pieces. You read a couple hundred more books, and a billion more pieces come in and you realize it's a depiction of Dante's Divine Comedy. Your part was a small portion of heaven.

No, those two books are just the start but if your not willing to read them then there is no point going any deeper on the topic you will always be ignorant of the entities operating against us. And you will be entirely naïve as to how the west operates.

And to go back to my point we must know our enemies. And to know our enemies we must study them and the best way to study them is to learn their histories, read their materials and pay attention to the things they do.

As for all this psudo intellectual talk like "reality is like a billion piece puzzle" its just worthless jargon. You know i graduated in economics and one of my lecturers used to tell me that worst thing that can happen to a society is when the "intellectuals" take over. I never understood what he meant then but over the years came to understand it. They become the experts but in reality know nothing.