India Coffee House

Joe Shearer

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@Rajaraja Chola

Don't you think it would be interesting to address the points raised by @HTurk? He is so clearly asking these questions with a very open mind, and with sympathetic curiousity.

@OverTheHorizon

Drawing your attention to this exchange, just in case you might want to chip in.
 

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UAE’s Ambassador to India Ahmed AlBanna says new grouping that first met in Oct 2021 is ‘an offspring of Abraham Accord’, critical to combat threats to economic growth & stability.​

NAYANIMA BASU
10 February, 2022 09:53 pm IST

Ahmed%20Al%20Banna.jpg

UAE Ambassador to India, Dr. Ahmed Al Banna​

New Delhi: Ahmed AlBanna, ambassador of the United Arab Emirates (UAE) to India, Thursday referred to the newly formed India-Israel-US-UAE grouping as the ‘West Asian Quad’, which is crucial for addressing global threats.

The India-Israel-US-UAE grouping, that met for the first time under a new framework in October 2021, was created to mainly deal with issues concerning maritime security, infrastructure, digital infrastructure, and transport. The grouping was announced during a meeting of the foreign ministers of the four countries on 18 October 2021.

“Signing of the historic Abraham Accord has not only opened up new opportunities for our own bilaterals with the state of UAE but also the trilateral strategic cooperation between the UAE, the US, India and Israel,” Albanna said at an event Thursday, adding that this ‘West Asian Quad’ will focus more on technology and security.

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US Secretary of State Antony Blinken during the first virtual Foreign Ministers summit of the US, India, Israel & UAE held last year

“The newly formed West Asian Quad between the UAE, India, Israel and the US is an offspring of the Abraham Accord… I firmly believe that the multilateral approach is more critical than ever to respond to increasingly complex threats to global economic growth and stability,” he added.

The Abraham Accords were signed in September 2020 by the US, UAE and Bahrain, which were later joined by Sudan and Morocco. Under these accords, the Jewish state of Israel has established diplomatic relations with its Muslim-majority neighbours and heralded normalisation of ties between the UAE and Israel.

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The national leaders of Bahrain, Israel, US & the UAE during signing of the historic Abraham Accords in 2020

New Defence & Security ties


Albanna also said while India and the UAE always enjoyed a growing relationship when it came to energy partnership and people-to-people connectivity, it has now expanded to the segments of defence and security.

“Our bilateral partnership has been traditionally dominated by energy and trade and expatriates. In recent times, we have witnessed a deepening of cooperation in new, strategic sectors such as defence, security, healthcare and sophisticated technology, like blockchain and artificial intelligence,” he said.

He also said the UAE is India’s only foreign partner in strategic oil reserves.

United_States_Strategic_Petroleum_Reserve_012-scaled.jpg

Strategic oil storage reserves (representative image)

India-UAE CEPA to boost two-way trade


On the upcoming signing of the India-UAE Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement (CEPA), the envoy said all approvals are in place and are awaiting the leadership of both countries to give it the go ahead.

“It will be signed soon and implemented,” Albanna said, adding, “we did it in less than four months’ time”. Negotiations for the free trade pact or CEPA began in October 2021.

He also said that the proposed India-UAE CEPA will further boost trade and investment ties between the countries. According to Albanna, two-way trade between India and the UAE will now get a further boost, as they are now strategic partners. He said the UAE will also invest a total of $75 billion in India to strengthen infrastructure.

“We started the actual negotiations in October and by December-end our negotiators had finalised the agreement… Signing a CEPA usually takes countries months and months, if not years and years,” Albanna said, adding that the pact will boost India’s manufacturing sector and generate jobs.

To effect the flow of investments, the trade pact will create a “one-zone corridor” for India in the UAE and vice-versa, he said.

UAE is India’s third-largest trading partner, with two-way trade reaching nearly $60 billion in 2020-21. Both sides have set a target of taking this to $100 billion by 2026.

(Edited by Saikat Niyogi)

 

xizhimen

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No matter how many quad and aukus the west makes, they don't serve any purposes, they only show how insecure they are and how much they fear us, couples of weaklings huddling together to get a false sense of security.
 

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No matter how many quad and aukus the west makes, they don't serve any purposes, they only show how insecure they are and how much they fear us, couples of weaklings huddling together to get a false sense of security.

You're welcome - you should just ignore them. :) Mid-East Quad does not directly concern China anyway - world doesn't revolve around you.
 

xizhimen

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You're welcome - you should just ignore them. :) Mid-East Quad does not directly concern China anyway - world doesn't revolve around you.
Google and find out how many say they do. But it doesn't matter anyway.
 

Rajendra Chola

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That is a very balanced summary. I didn't mention Coimbatore because it is such an unholy mess, one that I know was deliberately created as a safe haven by extremists. Now, however, there is a back-lash (you obviously know all this) and the Hindi-speaking set have started throwing their weight around. Not a good development.

Ramanathapuram and Kanyakumari - I'm a little taken aback. Back in the day, working for the Murugappa Chettiars, I travelled all of this by bus, and the only small incident I can remember was being buttonholed by a citizen in a bus who wanted to know if I was Muslim or Malloo! He had noticed that my ears weren't pierced, I didn't look very Tamil, and there was obviously something that needed explanation. I'm sorry to hear what you wrote about the pressures building up there.

Haridwar was sickening. I'd rather not even comment about it.

Yogi was going to be a mistake from the get-go, and it never seemed to have been a viable proposition.

In my opinion, the only viable politico-administrative leader that the BJP has is the very low-key, very effective Nitin Gadkari, who was stabbed in the back by Rajan Jaitley in 2014, and who is waiting for the chimpanzee to fail, as he is already doing, and to lose popular support, well on the way.

Let us hope for the best.

During the peak of Jaya wave in 2014, Kanniyakumari was probably the second place in country after J&K, to see reverse polarisation. Hindus voted enbloc for Pon. Radhakrishnan and he became MP without the support of DMK/ADMK in TN. The reverse polarisation is not without reason. Recently a pastor (Look George Ponnaiah) was arrested for such highly blatant anti Hindu communal speech which saw Christians clapping enmasse. This was just the tip of the iceberg. Hate speeches have been going on for decades in KK with active support of INC and DMK in the guise of Dravidisn minority protection or secularism.

As for PM Modi, his tenure is required. Every country goes through the right wing experiment. US went through (and not yet over). France is now going through a change. Turkey is experiencing it. Canada's turn will come. It promises something that people believe will resolve all their issues. But after people go through it, they will understand that the BJP is just another party and would start voting sensibly in coming years. Not against them necessarily, but people will start looking at candidate etc. It's also an chance for INC to remake itself. But dynastic sycophants who cannot win their single election on their own populate the higher echelons of INC. And clean corrupt elements among them. Rahul makes a strong statement and goes away for Thailand or Italy for vacation. Indian electorate politics is perhaps the world's difficult and grinding. Even if Modi was given a pedestral in 2013, he was worked hard ever since to keep that pedestral. That level of commitment is missing from the principal opposition party.

One day is a long time in politics, and considering nothing unusual happens, Modi is set for 2024. I just hope at least after 2024, INC Unites breakaway factions from Mamata, Jagan, Pawar to rebuild the original Kamaraj Congress.

One of the most disappointing decisions of BJP in my opinion is sidelining of Keshav Prasad Maurya and appointing someone like Yogi in 2017. People simply believe killing "criminals" would bring about development of UP. A politician is required for that job and not an dictator. Even if your fellow ministers are corrupt, in today's politics you have to let them for them to give you your full support. Compromises and leeway are the arts of politics. A reason why I consider PVNR reign, ABVP and UPA 1 reign some of the best times for India.
 

Rajendra Chola

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I do consider myself as a person who knows more about India ('s policies) than the average citizen in the developed world. However, even I need to realize from time to time how enormous and big India actually is. It is like learning about Europe and European history not by looking at one country at the time but reading, watching and hearing all countries stories at once and on top of that, "the many Indias" are pretty much intertwined.

There are so many lines of conflict in the Indian society that I can hardly keep track of all of them. Political, religious, ethnic, historical, cultural, geographical and linguistic breaking points make the country so complicated. Sometimes I wonder how the country is still existing. I mean, any other country would have ceased to exist. But perhaps these differences are the glue that holds the country together? Why are a Bengali, a Tamil and a Punjabi sharing a country? It is hard to understand for an outsider like me. These questions are posed in the most respectful and reverential way possible. I just try to understand.

I'm also interested in the relationship between Dalits and Muslims. I struggle to position the Muslims within the larger picture of the Hindu-majority society. Do upper caste Hindus treat Muslims and Dalits the same? I know that Muslims are not Hindus. I'm more interested in the day-to-day-life, the reality on the ground. Do upper caste Hindus avoid contact with Muslims like they do with Dalits? Are Muslims seen as "the prodigal son" of Mother India? Let's say I - as a Muslim - decide to convert to Hinduism. Which caste do I get assigned to?

I am an Indian, and very few among us can claim that they know the length and breadth of India. Foreign journos who call themselves experts of India are just kidding themselves.

The history of caste itself has a different origin. Caste was designed as a way to organize people back 5000 years when humans weren't even having proper clothes. So you are born, you are tested, and some people decide you are good for this job, and they are assigned to that caste. Very similar to English last names like Wood, Butcher, Cook, Green etc which are nothing but names related to their work done by their anchestors.

Now that system evolved into based on birth, and to preserve the power of ruling and priestly class, wrote some Hindu texts to suit the narrative and gave it religious sanction. Now my English equivalent of my caste is Potter. My anchestors used to be clay pot makers. My great grandma father switched to Agriculture, my dad a teacher and me electronics engineer.

Technically, let's say you are a foreigner, and if.you convert, you can convert to a Brahmin. No religious sanction is required. I think Arya Samaj just converts without giving a caste tag. All castes have like 60-70% of similar customs. But castes have their own distinguishing customs. Like the way one gets married, costumes, burial rituals etc. So if you are impressed by a caste customs, you could get into that, but you won't receive a official certificate for.the same except having the name Hindu on your religious certificate.

It's so exhausting even to type for me. Indian govt has institutionalised caste for administrative purposes. For reservations as example. And I just explained not even 1% of differences. Hindu God's are separate from.castes. Shiva or Vishnu or Shakthi are worshipped by all across Hindus, across castes. And that is what BJP or Hindutva project is in India. To unite people like Abrahamic religions and to get them above their caste identity. Detractors say this is an attempt by High caste Hindus to subsume lower castes so they can maintain their hierarchy. While I find merit in both approaches, people following the second approach has never really tried to abolish castes in the first place but try to use castes to drive more wedges among castes.


Good thing, people have changed a lot. Inter castes marriages are rising across India (including me who got married like 4 months ago :p) and as time goes on, caste discrimination will go less.


As for relationship btw Dalits and Muslims, it's a Mirage of alliance of convenience in my opinion. And I can only talk of my limited experience. Different Indian states have different ground realities on going. I prefer to use the word SC for Dalits as I find the word "labelling". SC in the largest Indian state of UP are hardcore voters of BJP. The so called alliance btw SC and Muslims is nearly nil. Communal clashes have taken place btw Muslims and SCs too. But SCs are being wooed upon by upper castes to build a larger Hindu conciousness. And I think SCs would find appealing of Hindu conciousness than Muslim alliance. Cos Hindu conciousness takes their distinct cultural practises into account. Muslims don't, expect uniformity and don't make compromises. At the end of the day SCs are kaffirs. And that wouldn't make an alliance a long term options.

SC leaders have tried, still trying to stitch an alliance. In some states it's partially successfull. But I don't see an long term alliance coming out of it.
 

Joe Shearer

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During the peak of Jaya wave in 2014, Kanniyakumari was probably the second place in country after J&K, to see reverse polarisation. Hindus voted enbloc for Pon. Radhakrishnan and he became MP without the support of DMK/ADMK in TN. The reverse polarisation is not without reason. Recently a pastor (Look George Ponnaiah) was arrested for such highly blatant anti Hindu communal speech which saw Christians clapping enmasse. This was just the tip of the iceberg. Hate speeches have been going on for decades in KK with active support of INC and DMK in the guise of Dravidisn minority protection or secularism.

As for PM Modi, his tenure is required. Every country goes through the right wing experiment. US went through (and not yet over). France is now going through a change. Turkey is experiencing it. Canada's turn will come. It promises something that people believe will resolve all their issues. But after people go through it, they will understand that the BJP is just another party and would start voting sensibly in coming years. Not against them necessarily, but people will start looking at candidate etc. It's also an chance for INC to remake itself. But dynastic sycophants who cannot win their single election on their own populate the higher echelons of INC. And clean corrupt elements among them. Rahul makes a strong statement and goes away for Thailand or Italy for vacation. Indian electorate politics is perhaps the world's difficult and grinding. Even if Modi was given a pedestral in 2013, he was worked hard ever since to keep that pedestral. That level of commitment is missing from the principal opposition party.

One day is a long time in politics, and considering nothing unusual happens, Modi is set for 2024. I just hope at least after 2024, INC Unites breakaway factions from Mamata, Jagan, Pawar to rebuild the original Kamaraj Congress.

One of the most disappointing decisions of BJP in my opinion is sidelining of Keshav Prasad Maurya and appointing someone like Yogi in 2017. People simply believe killing "criminals" would bring about development of UP. A politician is required for that job and not an dictator. Even if your fellow ministers are corrupt, in today's politics you have to let them for them to give you your full support. Compromises and leeway are the arts of politics. A reason why I consider PVNR reign, ABVP and UPA 1 reign some of the best times for India.
You must know that I read this with mixed feelings, even though at some level, what you say does make sense - from a certain standpoint, and a certain point of view.

I tire very easily these days - that nauseating encounter with a Sanghi took a toll - so perhaps I will respond to this with my reactions a bit later. Two or three days?
 

Joe Shearer

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I am an Indian, and very few among us can claim that they know the length and breadth of India. Foreign journos who call themselves experts of India are just kidding themselves.

The history of caste itself has a different origin. Caste was designed as a way to organize people back 5000 years when humans weren't even having proper clothes. So you are born, you are tested, and some people decide you are good for this job, and they are assigned to that caste. Very similar to English last names like Wood, Butcher, Cook, Green etc which are nothing but names related to their work done by their anchestors.

Now that system evolved into based on birth, and to preserve the power of ruling and priestly class, wrote some Hindu texts to suit the narrative and gave it religious sanction. Now my English equivalent of my caste is Potter. My anchestors used to be clay pot makers. My great grandma father switched to Agriculture, my dad a teacher and me electronics engineer.

Technically, let's say you are a foreigner, and if.you convert, you can convert to a Brahmin. No religious sanction is required. I think Arya Samaj just converts without giving a caste tag. All castes have like 60-70% of similar customs. But castes have their own distinguishing customs. Like the way one gets married, costumes, burial rituals etc. So if you are impressed by a caste customs, you could get into that, but you won't receive a official certificate for.the same except having the name Hindu on your religious certificate.

It's so exhausting even to type for me. Indian govt has institutionalised caste for administrative purposes. For reservations as example. And I just explained not even 1% of differences. Hindu God's are separate from.castes. Shiva or Vishnu or Shakthi are worshipped by all across Hindus, across castes. And that is what BJP or Hindutva project is in India. To unite people like Abrahamic religions and to get them above their caste identity. Detractors say this is an attempt by High caste Hindus to subsume lower castes so they can maintain their hierarchy. While I find merit in both approaches, people following the second approach has never really tried to abolish castes in the first place but try to use castes to drive more wedges among castes.


Good thing, people have changed a lot. Inter castes marriages are rising across India (including me who got married like 4 months ago :p) and as time goes on, caste discrimination will go less.


As for relationship btw Dalits and Muslims, it's a Mirage of alliance of convenience in my opinion. And I can only talk of my limited experience. Different Indian states have different ground realities on going. I prefer to use the word SC for Dalits as I find the word "labelling". SC in the largest Indian state of UP are hardcore voters of BJP. The so called alliance btw SC and Muslims is nearly nil. Communal clashes have taken place btw Muslims and SCs too. But SCs are being wooed upon by upper castes to build a larger Hindu conciousness. And I think SCs would find appealing of Hindu conciousness than Muslim alliance. Cos Hindu conciousness takes their distinct cultural practises into account. Muslims don't, expect uniformity and don't make compromises. At the end of the day SCs are kaffirs. And that wouldn't make an alliance a long term options.

SC leaders have tried, still trying to stitch an alliance. In some states it's partially successfull. But I don't see an long term alliance coming out of it.
Fascinating.

I am looking forward to reading @HTurk 's reaction to this.
 

Nilgiri

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Thanks for the "Southern" perspective. I didn't know that the percentage of Muslims is as high as 25 in Kerala. Thanks to the media, you get this picture of Indian Muslims only living in North India which ofc does not reflect the reality. That being said, I'm suprised that even a well-educated person like you came in touch with North Indians quite late in his life. I wonder if this is also the case with the Chinese society and its own socio-geopgraphical inner dynamics.

I am very atypical as I spent most of my formative childhood and youth growing up in Hong Kong and then Singapore.

It has played some high degree in making me quite aware of minority issues more broadly....as I was quite an extremely visible but rare minority in Hong Kong especially (at that tender age too).

I will give more insight into the conversation in this thread as it progresses....as I get more time for it....please do keep asking questions as you see fit.
 

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Looking forward with a broad smile of anticipation to the answer. @Nilgiri is perhaps the only member who can comment with equal facility on south, north and east India, as well as on China, the southern part as well as the metropolitan north, and now, on contemporary north America.

Kerala is a unique location (do probe Nilgiri on his own connections with that part of India), and has reputedly the first mosque build outside mainland Arabia, in the world. Let us hear from Nilgiri, however, as he has far more information than many other Indians or people of Indian origin.

Looking forward to his reply.

Unfortunately, he has lately become a habitual absentee, and a defaulter, probably due to the pressures of his day-job. He has pending an account of China, and has a number of slightly irritated fans, eating more popcorn than is good for them, waiting for this to happen.

Let us think pressure waves in his direction. Only good things will happen.

w.r.t developing the China arc I plan...

In addition to real life time pressures.....this endeavour (during the last 3 times I tried to make real headway) takes on some specially poignant contours that I need to be in somewhat better frame of mind for (the world just can't catch a break lately!).

==========================

For the time being I will definitely add what I can to this very interesting conversation without intervening too much...as there is very good dynamic here by this small crowd assembled here....what we all can bring to it over time slowly and well.

It is what I envisioned with the coffee house thread to begin with.
 
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Nilgiri

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This is SO complex, I will not even try to answer here and now. If you are seriously interested, and if Nilgiri permits, I will launch on a multi-part answer that will land up addressing the surface of the issues involved. I seek Nilgiri's permission because he has this knack of putting things in orderly fashion, and of remaining dispassionate about the issues involved.

No permission needed from my end haha....and dont worry about the absences we all need and take as required.

This is a coffee house....it is meant to be that way....we come and go and have a chat....long or short as required.
 

Nilgiri

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During the peak of Jaya wave in 2014, Kanniyakumari was probably the second place in country after J&K, to see reverse polarisation. Hindus voted enbloc for Pon. Radhakrishnan and he became MP without the support of DMK/ADMK in TN. The reverse polarisation is not without reason. Recently a pastor (Look George Ponnaiah) was arrested for such highly blatant anti Hindu communal speech which saw Christians clapping enmasse. This was just the tip of the iceberg. Hate speeches have been going on for decades in KK with active support of INC and DMK in the guise of Dravidisn minority protection or secularism.

Will have to read your posts (and everyone elses) in more measured way when I have bit more time.

But this one strikes close to me...I am reminded of a dear (long departed and much missed) elder family member of mine who faced quite some shocking treatment from some Christian radicals/extremists. She never forgot it....and this made some fury within her (as wonderful a person as she otherwise was)....so much so that she stood out in her political support for my otherwise tempered family. Congress party crystallised as enemy for her...so much so she would lend full support even to types like VP Singh (that attracted distaste from say my father). She simply wanted to see INC utterly destroyed.

This is a lady though that had the greatest abiding honour and respect for Kamaraj though (and his congress of the time).

But there are radicals and extremists in each group of people...that have their effect in the end on regular people.

More people have to become attuned to this phenomenon rather than fight fire with fire.

It is easier said than done.

Good thing, people have changed a lot. Inter castes marriages are rising across India (including me who got married like 4 months ago :p) and as time goes on, caste discrimination will go less.

Congratulations and best wishes are in order :)
 

Nilgiri

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You're welcome - you should just ignore them. :) Mid-East Quad does not directly concern China anyway - world doesn't revolve around you.

The "right back at you" approach is even simpler and elegant lol:

 

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No permission needed from my end haha....and dont worry about the absences we all need and take as required.

This is a coffee house....it is meant to be that way....we come and go and have a chat....long or short as required.
Many thanks. 'theTankGuy' thinks my recent illness was a mild attack of COVID, and certainly the symptoms all point in that direction. I am left free of any overt trouble, but weak and listless, so must drop in from time to time for the coffee.
 

Joe Shearer

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I always thougt you guys are tea drinkers.
Most of India, but with a major coffee pocket in the state of Karnataka (the one that contains Bangalore), and considerable support in the other southern states, but still with a strong dash of tea-affinity even in those four outside Karnataka.
 

Joe Shearer

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Will have to read your posts (and everyone elses) in more measured way when I have bit more time.

But this one strikes close to me...I am reminded of a dear (long departed and much missed) elder family member of mine who faced quite some shocking treatment from some Christian radicals/extremists. She never forgot it....and this made some fury within her (as wonderful a person as she otherwise was)....so much so that she stood out in her political support for my otherwise tempered family. Congress party crystallised as enemy for her...so much so she would lend full support even to types like VP Singh (that attracted distaste from say my father). She simply wanted to see INC utterly destroyed.

This is a lady though that had the greatest abiding honour and respect for Kamaraj though (and his congress of the time).

But there are radicals and extremists in each group of people...that have their effect in the end on regular people.

More people have to become attuned to this phenomenon rather than fight fire with fire.

It is easier said than done.



Congratulations and best wishes are in order :)
1644711508661.png
 

Joe Shearer

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Will have to read your posts (and everyone elses) in more measured way when I have bit more time.

But this one strikes close to me...I am reminded of a dear (long departed and much missed) elder family member of mine who faced quite some shocking treatment from some Christian radicals/extremists. She never forgot it....and this made some fury within her (as wonderful a person as she otherwise was)....so much so that she stood out in her political support for my otherwise tempered family. Congress party crystallised as enemy for her...so much so she would lend full support even to types like VP Singh (that attracted distaste from say my father). She simply wanted to see INC utterly destroyed.
This Christian extremism has been a shock to me. A real shock. I wonder who the priests are.
This is a lady though that had the greatest abiding honour and respect for Kamaraj though (and his congress of the time).

But there are radicals and extremists in each group of people...that have their effect in the end on regular people.

More people have to become attuned to this phenomenon rather than fight fire with fire.

It is easier said than done.



Congratulations and best wishes are in order :)
 

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