TR Defence Exports & Updates

[Saithan]

The problem is neither the jet, economy or political will. It is the way "you" speak to your fellow forummers, and then you don't even seem to reflect on your words.

 

[Afif]

God forbid someone brings realism into the discussion.

No, procuring Rafales isn’t more costly than procuring a fifth-generation plane. The base model itself is even cheaper than the F-35, a single-engine, low-cost, fifth-gen aircraft.

No, F35A base model cost is actually cheaper than Rafale or Eurofighter.

Transforming into a next-generation air force doesn’t happen just by buying new planes. Just look at the major transformations Turkey underwent when shifting from the Century Series to F-4 Phantoms, from F-4 Phantoms to F-16s, and later when we started the transition to the F-35s. It’s nearly the same as building an entirely new air force.

Kaan is designed to be a highly capable, twin-engine aircraft with top-of-the-line subsystems. It’s not a plane that will be cheap. Affordable aircraft are designed with affordability in mind from the beginning of the project, like the F-16, the F-35 in its generation, or the Su-75.

After cutting through unnecessary mental gymnastics, you expect Turkey to transition from 4th gen F16 light weight fighter based air force to heavy twin engine 5th gen platform based AF, but you don't expect ohers to be able to do the same? Specially those that operates twin engine 4th gen fighters already?

 

[uçuyorum]

No, F35A base model cost is actually cheaper than Rafale or Eurofighter.



After cutting through unnecessary mental gymnastics. You expect Turkey to transition from 4th F16 light weight fighter based air force to heavy twin engine 5th gen platform based AF, but you don't expect ohers to be able to do the same? Specially those that operates twin engine 4th gen fighters already?

Its a significant undertaking and will be very costly to us.

 

[somegoodusername]

No, F35A base model cost is actually cheaper than Rafale or Eurofighter.

No, it isn’t. As I mentioned in my previous posts, the cost of an aircraft involves many factors beyond just the base price of the plane. If all else is equal, the F-35 is more expensive than the Rafale; there’s no way it can be cheaper. The technology levels of these aircraft are vastly different.

After cutting through unnecessary mental gymnastics. You expect Turkey to transition from 4th gen F16 light weight fighter based air force to heavy twin engine 5th gen platform based AF, but you don't expect ohers to be able to do the same? Specially those that operates twin engine 4th gen fighters already?

Yes, the Turkish Air Force could have been considered the second most combat-active air force in the world before the Ukraine-Russia war started. Daily sortie count of TurAF in Syria when we were doing doing operatios was equivalant of Russia's daily sortie count inside Ukraine. Turkish military is arguably the strongest military in Europe. In top of that Turkish defense industry is set to be among the largest in the world. Comparing countries that operate 40-50 combat jets in good times and is unreasonable.

Also, like I said in my previous post, just because one plane is twin engines it doesn't mean it's a "heavy plane".

An aircraft equipped with two F-404 engines are significantly different from one with two F-110 engines. The Rafale, with its two engines, has a total maximum thrust of 34,000 pounds, which isn’t much higher than the 29,000 pounds of maximum thrust in a single-engine F-16, near same with UAE F-16's that have 32000 pounds of maximum thrust. Additionally, the Rafale’s radar may be less capable than the one on the F-16 Block 70. So, while the Rafale and F-18 may be twin-engine aircraft, they offer capabilities that aren’t significantly different from those of the F-16, meaning they’re not exactly "premium" fighters.

 

[2033]

What nonsense I see. Indonesia will be in the top 10 in the world in 20 years in terms of GDP. The population will soon exceed 300 million. It is stupid to say that such a huge country cannot find the money to run a fifth generation.

 

[Afif]

No, it isn’t.

Yes it is. based on the French budget documents reporting the average cost of Rafale B at €74 million ($98.2 million) in 2013 values. While a F35A flyaway cost is $82 millions for lot 15-17.

Yes, the Turkish Air Force could have been considered the second most combat-active air force in the world before the Ukraine-Russia war started. Daily sortie count of TurAF in Syria when we were doing doing operatios was equivalant of Russia's daily sortie count inside Ukraine. Turkish military is arguably the strongest military in Europe. In top of that Turkish defense industry is set to be among the largest in the world. Comparing countries that operate 40-50 combat jets in good times and is unreasonable.

Most Air Forces are not being combat active is not a good argument for claiming that who are financially able will not choose or will be unable to operate 5th gen twin engine platform like KAAN.

Plus, we are talking about something beyond 2030s. A lot can and will (likely) change in a decade. Including financial situation, regional security dynamics, etc. At this point you can't determine who wants to aquire what kind of capabilities and when.

 

[Sanchez]

While Indonesian and Malaysian Air Forces are small, they've historically used larger fighter aircraft, like the F-18s, or Su-30s. With the economies of both countries growing ever larger at nearly exponential rates, and with SEA starting to get hot, it's only plausible to expect them to order more expensive and capable aircraft in larger numbers. Indonesia already started the trend by ordering 40+ Rafales in the last 4 years. Just like in Europe, we'll see more countries increase their military budgets in the region, and Hürjet and Kaan might find themselves buyers there if they are ready in time.

 

[Yasar_TR]

When compared to each other, Rafale cost and F35 cost may not look too different.

Germany “pegged” the price of its 35 units of F35 at 8.4 billion dollars.

India bought 36 Rafale jets for 8.7billion dollars.

Germany signed the deal in 2022. The 7.7% inflation corrected price puts German purchase at 9 billion dollars.

But India signed the deal n 2016. That is 27% more today as the deal was signed in Euros. So they actually agreed to pay 11billion dollars for 36 planes.

Both, German and Indian deals include weapons, maintenance, training and ancillaries.

Germany clinches $8 billion purchase of 35 F-35 aircraft from the US

Manufacturer Lockheed Martin is now set to seek local industry partners to help maintain the fleet later — if the base prep work gets done in time.

www.defensenews.com

Part 2: How much did the Rafale actually cost?

www.ajaishukla.com

These are initial first purchase costs for the planes. Now that certain costs have been covered, follow up orders should be comparatively less than the initial costs.

Over the years, how much each aircraft will cost is a matter of how much their respective airforces will abuse them or look after them. Also how much the purchasing country was shafted by the seller. (India seems have paid over the odds for the Rafale’s) . Nevertheless SAAB has done a study and:

For a fleet of 100 planes, over 37 years and 200flight hours per year:

EDIT:
According to above SAAB study, a country buying 40 f35 jets, is paying ~80 million dollars more every year than a country buying 40 Rafales. Yet in reality India already paid upfront 2 billion dollars more for 36 planes. I don’t want to go in to the compounded interest of 2 billion dollars over 37 years. But those Rafales are surely costing more than the F35s.

 

[somegoodusername]

Good statistic and probably has some Saab adjustments on them. Like their marketing department is known for:

They even half-scammed us in the preliminary design process of the TF-X.

Let’s do some a priori thinking: the F-35 is a fifth-generation aircraft with highly advanced aircraft with highly complex engines that are known to be very expensive and hard to maintain. It has a much more complex production process, special coatings, far more advanced sensors, and so many other advanced features. Additionally, labor costs in the U.S. are nearly double those in France. While the F-35 benefits from economies of scale, I doubt this advantage fully closes the cost gap with a very conventional, 4th-generation aircraft like the Rafale, which has more average sensors and can’t even retract its fuel probe. It’s somewhat expensive compared to the F-16 Block 70 mainly because it doesn’t benefit from the same scale of production.

 

[Heartbang]

I'd like to be on record that I don't think that Indonesia, Malaysia and Philippines are poor countries.
And I also like to state that I think and hope that they'll buy oodles of KAAN fighters when it is ready

 

[Strong AI]

IF Türkiye will succeed with KAAN's engine, there will be a big line for KAAN. Why do we care about which country have the economy for it? We should care about how we can sell it even to countries with bad economy.

 

[somegoodusername]

Will Kemankeş 1 and 2 be produced in Baykar's factory in Ukraine?

 

[Azeri441]

Will Kemankeş 1 and 2 be produced in Baykar's factory in Ukraine?
View attachment 71717

Surprised Kemankes 2 can't be launched from Akinci

 

[somegoodusername]

Surprised Kemankes 2 can't be launched from Akinci

I am no expert but it's wing type looks like unsuitable for carrying it under pylons in high speeds.

 

[Shtr]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1852659788225679551

It will be more than 6.5B at 2024, maybe 7B. Pretty impressive.

 

[Iskander]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1852659788225679551

It will be more than 6.5B at 2024, maybe 7B. Pretty impressive.

"Russian arms exports in 2019-2023 fell by 53% compared to 2014-2018, Russia dropped to third place for the first time in this indicator. This is stated in a report by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI)
Russia's share of the world market was 11%. Russia is ahead of France (47% growth, share of world exports - 11%) and the United States (+17%, share of world exports - 42%). The top ten largest global arms exporters also include Italy (+86%, 4.3% of the world market), South Korea (+12%, 2% of the world market), China (-5.3%, world share - 5.8%), Germany (-14%, 5.6%), Great Britain (-14%; 3.7%), Spain (-3.3%; 2.7%) and Israel (-25%; 2.4%)"

SIPRI: Россия впервые заняла третье место по экспорту вооружений

Подробности читайте на vedomosti.ru

www.vedomosti.ru

Russia is losing its already few clients.
Russian sources themselves admit this.
In August 2022, Putin said that Russia had exported $8 billion worth of weapons in 8 months. And immediately ... classified all information regarding exports.
Moreover, for the first time in the last 80 years, Russia is forced to import weapons. From Iran! From North Korea!
It has come to the point that the Russians are asking Kazakhstan for decommissioned fighter jets and tanks of Soviet and Russian production.
It is clear that Russia cannot increase arms exports while waging a war. But not everything depends on the war. Because exports were declining long before the war.
The fact is that the world sees the quality of Russian weapons in Ukraine.
The phrase "Second Army of the World" has become a meme.

Taking into account the general trend, we can come to the conclusion that in the coming years Türkiye will be ahead of Russia in arms exports.

 

[Sanchez]

Repkon gets another contract from US Army. $435 million deal to build a TNT factory in Kentucky, US. This will be the first TNT production line in US after decades. They had mostly moved on to RDX and other expensive and powerful explosives, but wartime requires old school.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1854987463220928811

 

[what]

Who the hell is behind Repkon?

Anyway first the 2 production lines to supply 30% of US shells and now this, great business.

 

[Huelague]

Repkon gets another contract from US Army. $435 million deal to build a TNT factory in Kentucky, US. This will be the first TNT production line in US after decades. They had mostly moved on to RDX and other expensive and powerful explosives, but wartime requires old school.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1854987463220928811

I would prefer RDX over TNT. Interesting.

 

[uçuyorum]

I would prefer RDX over TNT. Interesting.

Sometimes you can't choose I guess