TR Defence Exports & Updates

[Yasar_TR]

What is a suitable airbase for operating 5th gen fighter?

A landing strip is not enough. You need special ground systems, ancillaries and specially trained crew, in addition to the specially designed enclosures to house step platforms and equipment.

If we go over just a few small details:

- A minimum capacity of 2,100 cubic feet of nitrogen at 3,500 psig with a capability of boosting nitrogen supply pressure up to 5,000 psig. In addition, The Cart had to provide a constant supply of nitrogen at flow rates up to 32 SCFM for a minimum of 20 minutes at 72 ±1.5 psi. This is for the tyres.

- The J00010 and J00011 Maintenance Platforms with a requirement to manually raise and lower, offering easy manoeuvrability to provide maintenance personnel access to areas of the F-35 that are beyond the normal reach and height.

- A dedicated area to replenish RAM paint and a store for used and scraped paint to be returned back to US.

- Special ground power units. Dedicated crew for Weapons loading and transporting equipment.

- Hydraulic and Pneumatic Systems Equipment: Equipment for testing and maintaining the hydraulic and pneumatic systems critical to the operation of the F-35. Areas to keep these equipment.

etc etc etc

The more of these systems you can house in the airfields, the shorter your operational downtime will be.

 

[Afif]

A landing strip is not enough. You need special ground systems, ancillaries and specially trained crew, in addition to the specially designed enclosures to house step platforms and equipment.

If we go over just a few small details:

- A minimum capacity of 2,100 cubic feet of nitrogen at 3,500 psig with a capability of boosting nitrogen supply pressure up to 5,000 psig. In addition, The Cart had to provide a constant supply of nitrogen at flow rates up to 32 SCFM for a minimum of 20 minutes at 72 ±1.5 psi. This is for the tyres.

- The J00010 and J00011 Maintenance Platforms with a requirement to manually raise and lower, offering easy manoeuvrability to provide maintenance personnel access to areas of the F-35 that are beyond the normal reach and height.

- A dedicated area to replenish RAM paint and a store for used and scraped paint to be returned back to US.

- Special ground power units. Dedicated crew for Weapons loading and transporting equipment.

- Hydraulic and Pneumatic Systems Equipment: Equipment for testing and maintaining the hydraulic and pneumatic systems critical to the operation of the F-35. Areas to keep these equipment.

etc etc etc

Yes. Infrastructure modifications and logistical set up takes place when the procurement takes place.

Other than that, I don't think any AF goes through all these just to prove it is worthy of operating 5th gen platforms sometimes in the remote future. like @somegoodusername was asking.

 

[somegoodusername]

Do you think we can't afford it.
Unfortunately,most Malaysian will rather spend more money on the country and welfare instead on defense.
The country leaders give such a low priority on defense that bordering on like treason.
Anyway we do can afford it if we want too after deducting big subsidies that cost tens of usd bilions we give to malaysian yearly.
Furthermore,Our gdp per capita is higher than Turkey.

You can't politically afford it. There is a reason why Turkish Air Force mostly consists of F-16's. We have been offered Eurofighters and F-15's in the past too, even A-10's. Air Force decided F-16's would be more bang for the buck. You buy the plane you need, you don't need Kaan. Buy KF-21 NG or F-35 if they sell to you and be happy.

 

[wolveray1]

View attachment 71683

Why do all these "defense analysts" from South Asian and Southeast Asian countries talk as if they have the funds to buy Kaan or even the capability to operate it in the first place? Kaan is going to be expensive and a heavy burden even for most European NATO countries. Kaan's only export market in Asia is maybe Pakistan, and that is for low numbers. Those Malaysians, Philippines, Indonesians that think they can buy and fly the Kaan are delusional. Just buy affordable Rafales F-16's of KF-21's.

Furthermore this poster goodforloser is insulting most countries in SEA considering that most of these countries are buying Tyrkish defense weapons.
Of course some of them can't afford it yet doesn't mean you can insult them.
I'm pretty sure he will insult mmost muslim nations too who are also buying Turkish weapon.
Yeah bro...why don't you sell to your buddy in europe or US...
Pls do..

 

[somegoodusername]

Furthermore this poster goodforloser is insulting most countries in SEA considering that most of these countries are buying Tyrkish defense weapons.
Of course some of them can't afford it yet doesn't mean you can insult them.
I'm pretty sure he will insult mmost muslim nations too who are also buying Turkish weapon.
Yeah bro...why don't you sell to your buddy in europe or US...
Pls do..

I am thinking of your well-being. Europeans laughs when they managed to sell unnecessarily expensive weapons to Gulf Arab countries. And Turkish products is doing good in European countries who don't have their own defense industries. Little by little.

Also you are not much richer than us. You had median income of 7512 dollars and we had median income of 5251 dollars in 2020. Median income is a better indicator of the average citizen's well-being compared to GDP per capita, which can be inflated by factors like oil revenues that primarily benefit the wealthy.

Median Income by Country 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

 

[wolveray1]

You can't politically afford it. There is a reason why Turkish Air Force mostly consists of F-16's. We have been offered Eurofighters and F-15's in the past too, even A-10's. Air Force decided F-16's would be more bang for the buck. You buy the plane you need, you don't need Kaan. Buy KF-21 NG or F-35 if they sell to you and be happy

I am thinking of your well-being. Europeans laughs when they managed to sell unnecessarily expensive weapons to Gulf Arab countries. And Turkish products is doing good in European countries who don't have their own defense industries. Little by little.

Also you are not much richer than us. You had median income of 7512 dollars and we had median income of 5251 dollars in 2020. Median income is a better indicator of the average citizen's well-being compared to GDP per capita, which can be inflated by factors like oil revenues that primarily benefit the wealthy.

Median Income by Country 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

What well being.
Billions yearly are being subsidies to the people.
They just don't care about defense.
Even Indonesian are buying a lot of rafales and F16V.
Pls lah...
I'm not here to say which country is better .....Just don't try to insult any countries on public forum.

 

[YeşilVatan]

You can't politically afford it. There is a reason why Turkish Air Force mostly consists of F-16's. We have been offered Eurofighters and F-15's in the past too, even A-10's. Air Force decided F-16's would be more bang for the buck. You buy the plane you need, you don't need Kaan. Buy KF-21 NG or F-35 if they sell to you and be happy.

I wish people understood this point. There comes a moment when politicians decide throwing money at the military is the better option. This is influenced by a variety of factors, but for most nations it's still far away. Financial limitations are real, and should be taken seriously. But politics is the thing that is really preventing a "huge" budget in most cases.

 

[TR_123456]

View attachment 71683

Why do all these "defense analysts" from South Asian and Southeast Asian countries talk as if they have the funds to buy Kaan or even the capability to operate it in the first place? Kaan is going to be expensive and a heavy burden even for most European NATO countries. Kaan's only export market in Asia is maybe Pakistan, and that is for low numbers. Those Malaysians, Philippines, Indonesians that think they can buy and fly the Kaan are delusional. Just buy affordable Rafales F-16's of KF-21's.

Get your facts right before making such statements,both Malaysia and Indonesia can afford the KAAN.
Affordable Rafales(146 million euro)?
And Pakistan cant afford the KAAN under normal circumstances!
So,you need to change your attitude!

 

[Yasar_TR]

I am thinking of your well-being. Europeans laughs when they managed to sell unnecessarily expensive weapons to Gulf Arab countries. And Turkish products is doing good in European countries who don't have their own defense industries. Little by little.

Also you are not much richer than us. You had median income of 7512 dollars and we had median income of 5251 dollars in 2020. Median income is a better indicator of the average citizen's well-being compared to GDP per capita, which can be inflated by factors like oil revenues that primarily benefit the wealthy.

Median Income by Country 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

To suggest that a country like Malaysia can’t afford KAAN, is total nonsense. Countries like Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines and Vietnam all can afford to buy KAAN. They all have descent nominal GDPs and national wealth to invest in our plane. Malaysia is one of the “Tiger economies” of the far east. With your logic, India is too poor to invest in any weapons too.
Rafale planes are one of the most expensive jets to buy.
If the conditions are right, then any country can buy any plane. Just check out Serbia with 63billion dollar nominal GDP, they are buying 12 Rafale’s for 3billion dollars.
It all depends on where your priorities lie.

 

[chibiyabi]

Neither of these countries has purchased any modern jets yet. Pakistan has only expressed an unofficial interest, primarily because of the serious threat it faces. They will likely end up buying between 24 and 48 Kaan aircraft, with the rest of their air force relying on Chinese jets. In contrast, Indonesia doesn’t face significant threats and can manage with KF-21s.

than you should choose better words to express what you want to say.. what you said before, not more than just an insult to our country...

 

[Anmdt]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1852236094865121584

This should be for Indonesia.

 

[somegoodusername]

God forbid someone brings realism into the discussion.

No, procuring Rafales isn’t more costly than procuring a fifth-generation plane. The base model itself is even cheaper than the F-35, a single-engine, low-cost, fifth-gen aircraft. Transforming into a next-generation air force doesn’t happen just by buying new planes. Just look at the major transformations Turkey underwent when shifting from the Century Series to F-4 Phantoms, from F-4 Phantoms to F-16s, and later when we started the transition to the F-35s. It’s nearly the same as building an entirely new air force.

Kaan is designed to be a highly capable, twin-engine aircraft with top-of-the-line subsystems. It’s not a plane that will be cheap. Affordable aircraft are designed with affordability in mind from the beginning of the project, like the F-16, the F-35 in its generation, or the Su-75.

If you asked any defense hobbyist from among F-16 users, they would probably say they’d like to have F-15s in their air forces. However, the actual decision-makers determining which planes to procure face hundreds of constraints that local defense enthusiasts don’t consider. Many of these F-16 operators “can afford to procure” F-15s on paper, but real-life empirical data suggests otherwise.

F-16 operators:

F-15 Operators:

So, no, I don’t expect Kaan to fall within the procurement considerations of, South Asian and Southeast Asian countries that have opted for more affordable Russian Sukhois or F-16s over higher-end F-15s or Eurofighters. When these countries eventually upgrade to the next generation of aircraft, I expect them to procure KF-21s, F-35s, or Su-75s, rather than KAANs, GCAPs, or FCASs.

 

[uçuyorum]

God forbid someone brings realism into the discussion.

No, procuring Rafales isn’t more costly than procuring a fifth-generation plane. The base model itself is even cheaper than the F-35, a single-engine, low-cost, fifth-gen aircraft. Transforming into a next-generation air force doesn’t happen just by buying new planes. Just look at the major transformations Turkey underwent when shifting from the Century Series to F-4 Phantoms, from F-4 Phantoms to F-16s, and later when we started the transition to the F-35s. It’s nearly the same as building an entirely new air force.

Kaan is designed to be a highly capable, twin-engine aircraft with top-of-the-line subsystems. It’s not a plane that will be cheap. Affordable aircraft are designed with affordability in mind from the beginning of the project, like the F-16, the F-35 in its generation, or the Su-75.

If you asked any defense hobbyist from among F-16 users, they would probably say they’d like to have F-15s in their air forces. However, the actual decision-makers determining which planes to procure face hundreds of constraints that local defense enthusiasts don’t consider. Many of these F-16 operators “can afford to procure” F-15s on paper, but real-life empirical data suggests otherwise.

F-16 operators:
View attachment 71705




F-15 Operators:
View attachment 71706

So, no, I don’t expect Kaan to fall within the procurement considerations of, South Asian and Southeast Asian countries that have opted for more affordable Russian Sukhois or F-16s over higher-end F-15s or Eurofighters. When these countries eventually upgrade to the next generation of aircraft, I expect them to procure KF-21s, F-35s, or Su-75s, rather than KAANs, GCAPs, or FCASs.

You need to consider the fact that a lot of countries instead use F18, Eurofighter and Rafale as their twin engine premium fighter.

 

[somegoodusername]

You need to consider the fact that a lot of countries instead use F18, Eurofighter and Rafale as their twin engine premium fighter.

An aircraft equipped with two F-404 engines are significantly different from one with two F-110 engines. The Rafale, with its two engines, has a total maximum thrust of 34,000 pounds, which isn’t much higher than the 29,000 pounds of maximum thrust in a single-engine F-16, near same with UAE F-16's that have 32000 pounds of maximum thrust. Additionally, the Rafale’s radar may be less capable than the one on the F-16 Block 70. So, while the Rafale and F-18 may be twin-engine aircraft, they offer capabilities that aren’t significantly different from those of the F-16, meaning they’re not exactly "premium" fighters.

Eurofighters might be considered more capable than these planes, but, as with the F-15, they aren’t as widely used as the likes of those more affordable planes.

 

[Saithan]

The problem is neither the jet, economy or political will. It is the way "you" speak to your fellow forummers, and then you don't even seem to reflect on your words.

 

[Afif]

God forbid someone brings realism into the discussion.

No, procuring Rafales isn’t more costly than procuring a fifth-generation plane. The base model itself is even cheaper than the F-35, a single-engine, low-cost, fifth-gen aircraft.

No, F35A base model cost is actually cheaper than Rafale or Eurofighter.

Transforming into a next-generation air force doesn’t happen just by buying new planes. Just look at the major transformations Turkey underwent when shifting from the Century Series to F-4 Phantoms, from F-4 Phantoms to F-16s, and later when we started the transition to the F-35s. It’s nearly the same as building an entirely new air force.

Kaan is designed to be a highly capable, twin-engine aircraft with top-of-the-line subsystems. It’s not a plane that will be cheap. Affordable aircraft are designed with affordability in mind from the beginning of the project, like the F-16, the F-35 in its generation, or the Su-75.

After cutting through unnecessary mental gymnastics, you expect Turkey to transition from 4th gen F16 light weight fighter based air force to heavy twin engine 5th gen platform based AF, but you don't expect ohers to be able to do the same? Specially those that operates twin engine 4th gen fighters already?

 

[uçuyorum]

No, F35A base model cost is actually cheaper than Rafale or Eurofighter.



After cutting through unnecessary mental gymnastics. You expect Turkey to transition from 4th F16 light weight fighter based air force to heavy twin engine 5th gen platform based AF, but you don't expect ohers to be able to do the same? Specially those that operates twin engine 4th gen fighters already?

Its a significant undertaking and will be very costly to us.

 

[somegoodusername]

No, F35A base model cost is actually cheaper than Rafale or Eurofighter.

No, it isn’t. As I mentioned in my previous posts, the cost of an aircraft involves many factors beyond just the base price of the plane. If all else is equal, the F-35 is more expensive than the Rafale; there’s no way it can be cheaper. The technology levels of these aircraft are vastly different.

After cutting through unnecessary mental gymnastics. You expect Turkey to transition from 4th gen F16 light weight fighter based air force to heavy twin engine 5th gen platform based AF, but you don't expect ohers to be able to do the same? Specially those that operates twin engine 4th gen fighters already?

Yes, the Turkish Air Force could have been considered the second most combat-active air force in the world before the Ukraine-Russia war started. Daily sortie count of TurAF in Syria when we were doing doing operatios was equivalant of Russia's daily sortie count inside Ukraine. Turkish military is arguably the strongest military in Europe. In top of that Turkish defense industry is set to be among the largest in the world. Comparing countries that operate 40-50 combat jets in good times and is unreasonable.

Also, like I said in my previous post, just because one plane is twin engines it doesn't mean it's a "heavy plane".

An aircraft equipped with two F-404 engines are significantly different from one with two F-110 engines. The Rafale, with its two engines, has a total maximum thrust of 34,000 pounds, which isn’t much higher than the 29,000 pounds of maximum thrust in a single-engine F-16, near same with UAE F-16's that have 32000 pounds of maximum thrust. Additionally, the Rafale’s radar may be less capable than the one on the F-16 Block 70. So, while the Rafale and F-18 may be twin-engine aircraft, they offer capabilities that aren’t significantly different from those of the F-16, meaning they’re not exactly "premium" fighters.

 

[2033]

What nonsense I see. Indonesia will be in the top 10 in the world in 20 years in terms of GDP. The population will soon exceed 300 million. It is stupid to say that such a huge country cannot find the money to run a fifth generation.

 

[Afif]

No, it isn’t.

Yes it is. based on the French budget documents reporting the average cost of Rafale B at €74 million ($98.2 million) in 2013 values. While a F35A flyaway cost is $82 millions for lot 15-17.

Yes, the Turkish Air Force could have been considered the second most combat-active air force in the world before the Ukraine-Russia war started. Daily sortie count of TurAF in Syria when we were doing doing operatios was equivalant of Russia's daily sortie count inside Ukraine. Turkish military is arguably the strongest military in Europe. In top of that Turkish defense industry is set to be among the largest in the world. Comparing countries that operate 40-50 combat jets in good times and is unreasonable.

Most Air Forces are not being combat active is not a good argument for claiming that who are financially able will not choose or will be unable to operate 5th gen twin engine platform like KAAN.

Plus, we are talking about something beyond 2030s. A lot can and will (likely) change in a decade. Including financial situation, regional security dynamics, etc. At this point you can't determine who wants to aquire what kind of capabilities and when.