TR F-16 Özgür | Hürkuş - Fighter Trainer Aircraft Projects

[Windchime]

There is a programme in Pakistan called PF-X. It is believed that this programme is a heavily localized version of JF-17, where the role of China is completely made redundant. Obviously, Pakistan will need the help of Turkish companies for this. Maybe Turkiye is interested in this final product as a work horse for the air force.

Tbh, JF-17 block 3 is not a bad aircraft. It's capabilities are superior to many F-16 blocks. A China-free Turkiye-upgraded JF-17 Block 4 could be a very good and affordable solution for Turkiye while KAAN matures.

Doubt. JF-17/FC-1 is a joint Sino-Pakistani program and there would obviously be provisions concerning the industrial workshare as well as restrictions concerning further usage of technology transferred to Pakistan, as well as those technologies derived from the program. This is modus operandi for a lot of joint programs, especially when a country is a clear recipient of technological assistance.

If they are to develop a JF-17 equivalent completely free of Chinese components, that wouldn't be JF-17 anymore in the first place.

Why so?
The Turkish Airforce has around 300 fighter jets(F-4,F-16),why the need for less?
We need at least 300 fighter aircraft in our neighbourhood.

I don't dispute the fact that Turkiye would need that much fighters in total, but I very much doubt that it will be able to afford and more importantly, sustain more than 250 Kaan. Kaan is a heavy weight fighter in its core which is very difficult to be cheaper than single engined light or medium weight fighters. They'll need some sort of high-low mix going forward, be it of Kaan and KE, or some sort of new light weight fighter in THK inventory. Maybe there's going to be a combat variant of Hurjet in the mix as well, but the point is, I highly doubt that the entirety of F-16 will be replaced only and completely by Kaan in the future.

 

[Zafer]

just 10-15 years ago we were like 50 years behind, now we are only 10 years behind. In the next couple of decades we can even be ahead of the competition. And with the UCAVs we aren't behind anyone already.

 

[Yabdulaziz]

Does F-16 Özgür avionics has Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System (Auto GCAS)?
& will TF-X have it?

 

[Sanchez]

just 10-15 years ago we were like 50 years behind, now we are only 10 years behind. In the next couple of decades we can even be ahead of the competition. And with the UCAVs we aren't behind anyone already.

Says who, exactly?

TurAF of 2023 compared to contemporary competition is at its least powerful state in the last 40 years both in quantity and quality. We were bombing Serbs at night with JDAMs 30 years ago, a capability only US had at the time. We had access to near everything US had access to. Nowadays capability wise all our neighbours and rivals except for Arabs and Iran fly with 4+ gen fighters while we are stuck with 50Ms and TurAF has never had this low number of fighters since 1960s.

 

[Zafer]

Says who, exactly?

TurAF of 2023 compared to contemporary competition is at its least powerful state in the last 40 years both in quantity and quality. We were bombing Serbs at night with JDAMs 30 years ago, a capability only US had at the time. We had access to near everything US had access to. Nowadays capability wise all our neighbours and rivals except for Arabs and Iran fly with 4+ gen fighters while we are stuck with 50Ms and TurAF has never had this low number of fighters since 1960s.

What power did you have with somebody else's weapons and ammunition? Look at what you can do in 10 years, going from 20% to 95% self-reliance. Actually, not in 10 years but in 5 years we are expected to hit 95%.

 

[Sanchez]

What power did you have with somebody else's weapons and ammunition? Look at what you can do in 10 years, going from 20% to 95% self-reliance. Actually, not in 10 years but in 5 years we are expected to hit 95%.

A Mk-82 made by MKE or US has the same explosive filler, they both explode on impact. Making your own equipment doesn't correlate to capability or numbers. By every metric available, TurAF is at a worst state today compared to 30 years ago. We failed to keep TurAF far ahead of our rivals as it had always been the case in the last 60 years and our air force possibly can no longer keep up with our 2.5 wars doctrine.

Making your own 5th gen in bulk jet 15 years later doesn't solve the problems we have today. We all like having to do our own stuff. But it is very much clear that all this has come at the cost of our current capabilities.

If we were to go at it with Greece in 6 months time, we would still use American made jets and missiles. American or French made helicopters would act as our SAR birds and 70 year old C-130s would ferry munitions between airfields, not any different than it was 40 years ago. Only advantage we now have is the ability to make our own PGMs.

 

[Zafer]

A Mk-82 made by MKE or US has the same explosive filler, they both explode on impact. Making your own equipment doesn't correlate to capability or numbers. By every metric available, TurAF is at a worst state today compared to 30 years ago. We failed to keep TurAF far ahead of our rivals as it had always been the case in the last 60 years and our air force possibly can no longer keep up with our 2.5 wars doctrine.

Making your own 5th gen in bulk jet 15 years later doesn't solve the problems we have today. We all like having to do our own stuff. But it is very much clear that all this has come at the cost of our current capabilities.

We will be solving today's problems with drones, but I guess you are not buying this.

 

[Zafer]

A Mk-82 made by MKE or US has the same explosive filler, they both explode on impact. Making your own equipment doesn't correlate to capability or numbers. By every metric available, TurAF is at a worst state today compared to 30 years ago. We failed to keep TurAF far ahead of our rivals as it had always been the case in the last 60 years and our air force possibly can no longer keep up with our 2.5 wars doctrine.

Making your own 5th gen in bulk jet 15 years later doesn't solve the problems we have today. We all like having to do our own stuff. But it is very much clear that all this has come at the cost of our current capabilities.

If we were to go at it with Greece in 6 months time, we would still use American made jets and missiles. American or French made helicopters would act as our SAR birds and 70 year old C-130s would ferry munitions between airfields, not any different than it was 40 years ago. Only advantage we now have is the ability to make our own PGMs.

You wouldn't b able to drop a single bomb if the US pulled the trigger on you, you are using borrowed weapons.

 

[Sanchez]

We will be solving today's problems with drones, but I guess you are not buying this.

Where are they? Those will be tomorrow's problems, not today's. Today's problems are very much alive. You fight your wars with what you have now, not with what you plan to have in 5-15 years. We are forced to turn the other cheek and not maximize our profits because our air force of today is left behind and because our economy is in the gutter.

You wouldn't b able to drop a single bomb if the US pulled the trigger on you, you are using borrowed weapons.

Like they did in 74 and 92? We survived those ones, we will survive this one as well. As always, prime mistake is the hamaset. You are wrong when you say we were 50 years behind others 15 years ago. We weren't, that is absolutely incorrect. Our rivals have never been this close to match and even surpass our air force in the history of TurAF after we entered the jet age.

 

[Zafer]

Where are they? Those will be tomorrow's problems, not today's. Today's problems are very much alive. You fight your wars with what you have now, not with what you plan to have in 5-15 years. We are forced to turn the other cheek and not maximize our profits because our air force of today is left behind and because our economy is in the gutter.

Like they did in 74 and 92? We survived those ones, we will survive this one as well. As always, prime mistake is the hamaset. You are wrong when you say we were 50 years behind others 15 years ago. We weren't, that is absolutely incorrect.

Kızılelma will start production in six months but what does it matter? So is TF6000 coming online in a couple of years, but what difference can it make? Do we have to rely on borrowed power to feel safe, NO. We can only rely on our own power and it is coming.

 

[Fuzuli NL]

First of all it is Türkçe.
I am sorry but it is very important and Critical "History moments".
(TAI) General Manager Temel Kotil explain how it started from his personal live to TAI, then projects, government, neighbors etc.......
It is about planing, disbelieve, not feasibility, government steps, switch to private company, what had to be done, lot and lot of money, embargoes etc.
It is really astonishing to the end. Temel Kotil said the Facts, True and that there were consensuses.

Very inspiring and yet realistic.

 

[B_A]

A Mk-82 made by MKE or US has the same explosive filler, they both explode on impact. Making your own equipment doesn't correlate to capability or numbers. By every metric available, TurAF is at a worst state today compared to 30 years ago. We failed to keep TurAF far ahead of our rivals as it had always been the case in the last 60 years and our air force possibly can no longer keep up with our 2.5 wars doctrine.

Making your own 5th gen in bulk jet 15 years later doesn't solve the problems we have today. We all like having to do our own stuff. But it is very much clear that all this has come at the cost of our current capabilities.

If we were to go at it with Greece in 6 months time, we would still use American made jets and missiles. American or French made helicopters would act as our SAR birds and 70 year old C-130s would ferry munitions between airfields, not any different than it was 40 years ago. Only advantage we now have is the ability to make our own PGMs.

Says who, exactly?

TurAF of 2023 compared to contemporary competition is at its least powerful state in the last 40 years both in quantity and quality. We were bombing Serbs at night with JDAMs 30 years ago, a capability only US had at the time. We had access to near everything US had access to. Nowadays capability wise all our neighbours and rivals except for Arabs and Iran fly with 4+ gen fighters while we are stuck with 50Ms and TurAF has never had this low number of fighters since 1960s.

We had many Anka and Tb2 and other UCAV so our ground attack abilty is strongest now.

That s important that to fight PKK and other terrorists.

 

[B_A]

Where are they? Those will be tomorrow's problems, not today's. Today's problems are very much alive. You fight your wars with what you have now, not with what you plan to have in 5-15 years. We are forced to turn the other cheek and not maximize our profits because our air force of today is left behind and because our economy is in the gutter.

Like they did in 74 and 92? We survived those ones, we will survive this one as well. As always, prime mistake is the hamaset. You are wrong when you say we were 50 years behind others 15 years ago. We weren't, that is absolutely incorrect. Our rivals have never been this close to match and even surpass our air force in the history of TurAF after we entered the jet age.

Didnt Soviets air force far stronger than current Russia now?

 

[No Name]

Nowadays capability wise all our neighbours and rivals except for Arabs and Iran fly with 4+ gen fighters while we are stuck with 50Ms and TurAF has never had this low number of fighters since 1960s.

This is just silly, the only military that has a large advantage over Turkey in the region is Israel, and that was never going to change, since the US's foreign policy in the region is all about making Israel the most powerful country in the area.

Who are you referencing by "all our neighbours and rivals except for Arabs and Iran fly with 4+ gen fighters" Georgia, Armenia, and Bulgaria don't even have 50 jets between them and the ones they do have are all older than Turkey's. the only other country is Greece and their French backers, and let's be real if a conflict happened with Greece the entire West will jump in against Turkey.

As for the number of fighters being low that is made up for in the diversity of other platforms such as the Hisar and drones.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Says who, exactly?

TurAF of 2023 compared to contemporary competition is at its least powerful state in the last 40 years both in quantity and quality. We were bombing Serbs at night with JDAMs 30 years ago, a capability only US had at the time. We had access to near everything US had access to. Nowadays capability wise all our neighbours and rivals except for Arabs and Iran fly with 4+ gen fighters while we are stuck with 50Ms and TurAF has never had this low number of fighters since 1960s.

Its for good reason that erdogan after getting booted from the F35 that he ran back to them begging for F16's, but thats AK party politics, no foresight.

 

[Sanchez]

Kızılelma will start production in six months but what does it matter? So is TF6000 coming online in a couple of years, but what difference can it make? Do we have to rely on borrowed power to feel safe, NO. We can only rely on our own power and it is coming.

KE won't be a force multiplier for years. Any TF6000 powered platform, as well. Our F-16s are not borrowed power. It doesn't work that way.

We had many Anka and Tb2 and other UCAV so our ground attack abilty is strongest now.

That s important that to fight PKK and other terrorists.

COIN ops are almost unrelated to TurAF. By their nature, they are low cost and low tech.

Didnt Soviets air force far stronger than current Russia now?

Yes, Russia is a failed state when it comes to technology and their armed forces have been feeding on the corpse of the Soviets for the last 30 years.

This is just silly, the only military that has a large advantage over Turkey in the region is Israel, and that was never going to change, since the US's foreign policy in the region is all about making Israel the most powerful country in the area.

Who are you referencing by "all our neighbours and rivals except for Arabs and Iran fly with 4+ gen fighters" Georgia, Armenia, and Bulgaria don't even have 50 jets between them and the ones they do have are all older than Turkey's. the only other country is Greece and their French backers, and let's be real if a conflict happened with Greece the entire West will jump in against Turkey.

As for the number of fighters being low that is made up for in the diversity of other platforms such as the Hisar and drones.

Do I need to remind people that UAE struck our air defenses in Libya? If we claim power and rule over Eurasia, it's not just Greece or Israel. It's Saudi, UAE, Egypt, Iran, Russia as well. Why do we have Qatari Eurofighters and Rafales deployed in Konya AB? Nothing against the Qataris, and this is probably good business. Why do we want it though? Why do we need it? Qataris helped us airlift supplies to Libya. We probably couldn't undertake that op without their support. But why? How can a country of 80 millions and second largest NATO army doesn't have modern airlifters in numbers?

If Greeks were sure that "entire West" would jump to their support, they'd start a hot conflict already.
Hisar is an army project, not air force and will hopefully fill a void we have for the last 50 years.

 

[GoatsMilk]

KE won't be a force multiplier for years. Any TF6000 powered platform, as well. Our F-16s are not borrowed power. It doesn't work that way.


COIN ops are almost unrelated to TurAF. By their nature, they are low cost and low tech.

Yes, Russia is a failed state when it comes to technology and their armed forces have been feeding on the corpse of the Soviets for the last 30 years.

Do I need to remind people that UAE struck our air defenses in Libya? If we claim power and rule over Eurasia, it's not just Greece or Israel. It's Saudi, UAE, Egypt, Iran, Russia as well.

If Greeks were sure that "entire West" would jump to their support, they'd start a hot conflict already.
Hisar is an army project, not air force and will hopefully fill a void we have for the last 50 years.

KAAN has to be a success otherwise Turkiye is in a lot of trouble. Honestly the fact we find ourselves in such a desperate situation is the main reason i think it will be a success. We are a race that has to find our house on fire and our back up against the wall before we find the drive to fulfil our potential. Anything else and our people merely drift along.

 

[Sanchez]

KAAN has to be a success otherwise Turkiye is in a lot of trouble. Honestly the fact we find ourselves in such a desperate situation is the main reason i think it will be a success. We are a race that has to find our house on fire and our back up against the wall before we find the drive to fulfil our potential. Anything else and our people merely drift along.

Exactly my point. TurAF is so stretched thin, especially regarding fighters that, we cannot afford failing at KAAN. We cannot even afford small delays numbered in few years. It HAS to work and it HAS to work in time, or we are in deep shit. Underpowered KEs that can't talk to our F-16s like F-35s can between themselves and turboprop Akıncıs are not substitutes for fighter jets.

It didn't have to be this way. Can anyone imagine a scenario where we lose 5 years in achieving FOC for KAAN and Americans change their mind and don't supply us with subcomponents for Özgür? How does TurAF look in 2035 in that scenario?

 

[Quasar]

regarding our Air force TODAY may be we are currently not in an ideal situation this is a fact however our growing emphasis on balistic missiles, Air defence systems or navy projects like istif and hisar (showing flag in Mavi Vatan) ''ideal or not'' are seeking to provide at least short term solutions and I believe buying us enough time for Özgür or KAAN..

 

[B_A]

KE won't be a force multiplier for years. Any TF6000 powered platform, as well. Our F-16s are not borrowed power. It doesn't work that way.


COIN ops are almost unrelated to TurAF. By their nature, they are low cost and low tech.

Yes, Russia is a failed state when it comes to technology and their armed forces have been feeding on the corpse of the Soviets for the last 30 years.

Do I need to remind people that UAE struck our air defenses in Libya? If we claim power and rule over Eurasia, it's not just Greece or Israel. It's Saudi, UAE, Egypt, Iran, Russia as well. Why do we have Qatari Eurofighters and Rafales deployed in Konya AB? Nothing against the Qataris, and this is probably good business. Why do we want it though? Why do we need it? Qataris helped us airlift supplies to Libya. We probably couldn't undertake that op without their support. But why? How can a country of 80 millions and second largest NATO army doesn't have modern airlifters in numbers?

If Greeks were sure that "entire West" would jump to their support, they'd start a hot conflict already.
Hisar is an army project, not air force and will hopefully fill a void we have for the last 50 years.

We have to wait KAAN.

If we pay money for 200+ F-35 or Eurofighters or Rafales we cant pay the cost of KAAN.

BTW we should have produced not 270 but 400+ F16