TR F-16 Özgür | Hürkuş - Fighter Trainer Aircraft Projects

Deliorman

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Its maneuvering is superb, there is no indication that it will lack big time in any aspect. It made more than half a dozen flights during last year's Teknofest. It even did formation flights with Turkish stars and Soloturk. I was kind of nervous a bit during overpass flights as it had only been months since its first flight.


Dude, why are you so delusional on every single topic in this forum?

KE is a nice project that everyone is excited to see how it develops but you can't compare it to a fighter jet. The drone was flown a few times and is still far away from even getting most of it's systems integrated on the prototype but you and those like you are already virtually masturbating on how it be better than the F35 or something.

Stop living in the dream world because every intelligent person in there is laughing at your delusions.
 

B_A

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This is what Russians thought will happen in Ukraine too... Still the Ukrainian Air Force is flying and making sorties to this day. And on top of that Greeks have a better Air Force, Air Defense and infrastructure than Ukraine. To destroy a whole air base you will need a nuke. Planes can be flown and landed on highways too.

Russians throw rockets and missiles on Ukraine every single day and still Ukraine is able to function and fight back.
absolutely wrong

In case of war ( Turkey vs Greece for example ), let's say 300 Typhoon missiles will evaporate all Greece air bases. Their air force will either land on sea or seek asylum in Izmir.

the Turkish EW capability + deep missile strike is a big nightmare .
We will never fight Greek unless A Chinese-US war weak the western,
 

neosinan

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There is a reason why Greece has 6 patriot batteries. Both PAC-2 and PAC-3.

Without adequate SEAD/DEAD capability you can't just shoot large numbers of balistic missiles as a primary strategy, as Ukraine war showed Patriot will shoot down vast majority of them if not all.

And Don't say I am downplaying Tyfun's capability.

Characteristic wise it is not so much different than Iskander or Kinzal.

Despite having some maneuverability, any quasi balistic missile has physical limitations that cannot be exceeded.
If Ukrainian war show anything, Yes you can over-saturate any target.

I dont want to get into this silly war game scenarios but here goes nothing. In any hypothetical war, We need to be able to over-saturate every greek naval base, airbase and naval ship. Çakır missile is developed for this mission and We will need more Çakır than Greece's entire SAM missile arsenal in the first day of the war alone, We would use 500+ missile at bare minimum. And This should cost 100-250m$ (0,2-0,5 m$ * 500) . This is doable within 5 years. No need to use Cenk for most target, It is only necessary for Peloponnese Region, Adriatic sea and around Athens. So, We can destroy Greece's SAM capabilities at a fraction of the cost And It is important to remember it took over a year for Ukraine to get Western SAM. And You can bet Greece wont get replacement less than a couple week.
 
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Ahlatshah

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Like it or not, KE is the only realistic option we have until 2030s. It can not take down F35 or Rafale on its own, but the concept is KE will be cheap and produced in numbers: 5 KE against 1 F35, in terms of cost, production and in the field. It is not impossible

BUT, we have to come out with a good radar, good A2A missiles (especially Gokhan), twin engine version, keep its cost under 15 million USD so it can be produced in numbers. Only then KE can make a difference.
 

blackjack

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This is what Russians thought will happen in Ukraine too... Still the Ukrainian Air Force is flying and making sorties to this day. And on top of that Greeks have a better Air Force, Air Defense and infrastructure than Ukraine. To destroy a whole air base you will need a nuke. Planes can be flown and landed on highways too.

Russians throw rockets and missiles on Ukraine every single day and still Ukraine is able to function and fight back.
I dont even remember hearing any news lately about ukraine doing any kind of bombing. If such a thing happened, they would have already gotten passed atheist the 1st russian line of defense and didn't have the need to beg for F-16s.
 

YeşilVatan

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The way I see it; Greeks, like many westerners have a platform fetish. They think F-35 would be a silver bullet that will finally hand them air dominance. I think that is a grave mistake. Will they have deep strike capability? Yes. Will they be able to 'snipe' our air assets? also yes. Will this guarantee them air dominance? hell no.
  • In a few short years, we will have a very robust stratified air defence umbrella. It's going to be network centric. That would pose a significant threat even to the vaunted F-35.
  • We have good EW capability and it's going to be better. HAVA SOJ is a thing, and even if it's rendered useless, we are distributing our EW capability to smaller drones via EW pods now. Who even knows how that factor would play out? If I were betting man, I'd say it would be a major, if not deciding factor.
  • We know for a fact that we can produce MALD like decoys. Maybe make them a cornerstone of our strategy. What are they going to do when they see 500 F-16s on the screen?
  • We know for a fact that TAF can conduct air operations on a massive scale, with more than 100 airframes over enemy territory. I'll concede that these are bombing raids but it still speaks to the level of organization TAF has. I don't think any other country can boost such capability, except US and maybe France.
  • Platforms such as Akıncı will be able to fire BVRAAM missiles. If we get, say, 40 of them, that's 40 more flying things that should be shot down, at a significant range.
  • We don't know how 100+ TB2s in the air will affect a peer-to-peer air war. What if they suffer massive casualities but deplete enemy air defense? What if they force other air assets to 'reveal' themselves? How would it work? I can't even guess. But it's more than hundred expendable air assets. That's going to make a strategic impact. And also, newer kamikaze drones.
  • Our country has significant strategic depth, and we can transfer assets from other places or shoot missiles from way inlands.
  • Our submarines are matched or better already. Reis class will be way better. Didn't we launch a ballistic missile from one in the past year? That's gonna affect things. Have fun searching for Turkish subs in the Ionian Sea.
  • This is always brought up in these discussions, but that's because it's true: we have a massive ballistic missile card up our sleeve.
Our nightmare scenario is all of our air assets destroyed, our infrastructure bombed to bits, and our land forces are in a shattered retreat towards İstanbul. Things can't be worse than that. This scenario is simply not possible. Greeks can't coordinate an air campaign that can cripple our entire military infrastructure in a short enough timeframe, their land forces are not able to take, let alone hold a city as large as Edirne, their navy is sort of useless in the the offensive context in the Aegean front, as is ours btw.

Aging F-16s and the usefulness of Kızılelma can and should be debated. They are valid issues. But when it comes to the Greek military, I believe the whole picture is brighter than most think. The real problem is US bases around the sea of islands, and the endless hypocrisy of westerners when it comes to us. Whatever happens, we will always be seen as monsters and may even face harsher punishment than Russians.

Anyways, my vote is we wait 10 more years and let Greeks be destroyed by its demographic winter. And nuclear deterrence to avoid full scale westoid invasion.
 

Heartbang

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The way I see it; Greeks, like many westerners have a platform fetish. They think F-35 would be a silver bullet that will finally hand them air dominance. I think that is a grave mistake. Will they have deep strike capability? Yes. Will they be able to 'snipe' our air assets? also yes. Will this guarantee them air dominance? hell no.
  • In a few short years, we will have a very robust stratified air defence umbrella. It's going to be network centric. That would pose a significant threat even to the vaunted F-35.
  • We have good EW capability and it's going to be better. HAVA SOJ is a thing, and even if it's rendered useless, we are distributing our EW capability to smaller drones via EW pods now. Who even knows how that factor would play out? If I were betting man, I'd say it would be a major, if not deciding factor.
  • We know for a fact that we can produce MALD like decoys. Maybe make them a cornerstone of our strategy. What are they going to do when they see 500 F-16s on the screen?
  • We know for a fact that TAF can conduct air operations on a massive scale, with more than 100 airframes over enemy territory. I'll concede that these are bombing raids but it still speaks to the level of organization TAF has. I don't think any other country can boost such capability, except US and maybe France.
  • Platforms such as Akıncı will be able to fire BVRAAM missiles. If we get, say, 40 of them, that's 40 more flying things that should be shot down, at a significant range.
  • We don't know how 100+ TB2s in the air will affect a peer-to-peer air war. What if they suffer massive casualities but deplete enemy air defense? What if they force other air assets to 'reveal' themselves? How would it work? I can't even guess. But it's more than hundred expendable air assets. That's going to make a strategic impact. And also, newer kamikaze drones.
  • Our country has significant strategic depth, and we can transfer assets from other places or shoot missiles from way inlands.
  • Our submarines are matched or better already. Reis class will be way better. Didn't we launch a ballistic missile from one in the past year? That's gonna affect things. Have fun searching for Turkish subs in the Ionian Sea.
  • This is always brought up in these discussions, but that's because it's true: we have a massive ballistic missile card up our sleeve.
Our nightmare scenario is all of our air assets destroyed, our infrastructure bombed to bits, and our land forces are in a shattered retreat towards İstanbul. Things can't be worse than that. This scenario is simply not possible. Greeks can't coordinate an air campaign that can cripple our entire military infrastructure in a short enough timeframe, their land forces are not able to take, let alone hold a city as large as Edirne, their navy is sort of useless in the the offensive context in the Aegean front, as is ours BTW.

Aging F-16s and the usefulness of Kızılelma can and should be debated. They are valid issues. But when it comes to the Greek military, I believe the whole picture is brighter than most think. The real problem is US bases around the sea of islands, and the endless hypocrisy of westerners when it comes to us. Whatever happens, we will always be seen as monsters and may even face harsher punishment than Russians.

Anyways, my vote is we wait 10 more years and let Greeks be destroyed by its demographic winter. And nuclear deterrence to avoid full scale westoid invasion.
You forgot ANKA-3's and their TOLUN's wreaking havoc on Greek air base runways and keeping those planes stuck to the ground.
Reis class will be way better. Didn't we launch a ballistic missile from one in the past year?
Did we?
 

Angry Turk !!!

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Anyways, my vote is we wait 10 more years and let Greeks be destroyed by its demographic winter. And nuclear deterrence to avoid full scale westoid invasion.
I like this Idea but keep in mind that we have a demographic problem ourselves (syrians, afghans etc.) I'm sure outside forces will use them like they did with p*k donkeys.
 

Ryder

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Turkiye needs to realise its neighbours all fight differently.

So Turkiye cant be just focused on the Greeks.
 

Samba

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If Ukrainian war show anything, Yes you can over-saturate any target.

I dont want to get into this silly war game scenarios but here goes nothing. In any hypothetical war, We need to be able to over-saturate every greek naval base, airbase and naval ship. Çakır missile is developed for this mission and We will need more Çakır than Greece's entire SAM missile arsenal in the first day of the war alone, We would use 500+ missile at bare minimum. And This should cost 100-250m$ (0,2-0,5 m$ * 500) . This is doable within 5 years. No need to use Cenk for most target, It is only necessary for Peloponnese Region, Adriatic sea and around Athens. So, We can destroy Greece's SAM capabilities at a fraction of the cost And It is important to remember it took over a year for Ukraine to get Western SAM. And You can bet Greece wont get replacement less than a couple week.
Regardless of any scenario, today's war should be won in a week, otherwise it is lost almost in every aspect. It doesn't matter how strong you are.

See the USA vs Taliban (Afghanistan)

See Russia vs Ukraine
 

GoatsMilk

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Regardless of any scenario, today's war should be won in a week, otherwise it is lost almost in every aspect. It doesn't matter how strong you are.

See the USA vs Taliban (Afghanistan)

See Russia vs Ukraine

Definitely seems to be the case, but i also think a big part of having geopolitical influence is measured by the amount of military gear and technology you have. The Russians were able to get away with a lot because of the perception of this massive military with a 1000 plus fighter jets, 20,000 plus tanks etc. On paper their power seemed immense, and that perception gave them great influence and ability to move. Despite the reality being quite the opposite as witnessed in Ukraine.
 

Bogeyman 

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Definitely seems to be the case, but i also think a big part of having geopolitical influence is measured by the amount of military gear and technology you have. The Russians were able to get away with a lot because of the perception of this massive military with a 1000 plus fighter jets, 20,000 plus tanks etc. On paper their power seemed immense, and that perception gave them great influence and ability to move. Despite the reality being quite the opposite as witnessed in Ukraine.
Technically, the Russians fought with NATO, not Ukraine. Ukraine's ammunition and air-missile defense capacity was not enough to stand alone against Russia. Since it was not enough, NATO was already involved in the war covertly. Ukraine almost exploited the marrow of all NATO with the ammunition stock it spent in the first year of the war.
 

boredaf

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Technically, the Russians fought with NATO, not Ukraine. Ukraine's ammunition and air-missile defense capacity was not enough to stand alone against Russia. Since it was not enough, NATO was already involved in the war covertly. Ukraine almost exploited the marrow of all NATO with the ammunition stock it spent in the first year of the war.
That is not true whatsoever. Sure, NATO has given Ukraine weapons and munitions, but, what NATO has given is nothing but a drop in the ocean that is NATO's arsenal. 155mm shells and rockets for older systems, while they are not without their worth, of course, NATO didn't supply their deadliest and most effective weapons, mostly because they wanted to draw out this war as long as possible to deplete the Russians, which has worked. If NATO truly wanted fight against Russians on the side of Ukraine, this war would've been over long ago.
 

B_A

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Definitely seems to be the case, but i also think a big part of having geopolitical influence is measured by the amount of military gear and technology you have. The Russians were able to get away with a lot because of the perception of this massive military with a 1000 plus fighter jets, 20,000 plus tanks etc. On paper their power seemed immense, and that perception gave them great influence and ability to move. Despite the reality being quite the opposite as witnessed in Ukraine.
Nuclear weapons and Oil and other natural resource

Also the help from China
 

UkroTurk

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Need to import those commercial humansid robots and upload flight manuals ( i know being fighter pilot more than flight manuals) . Bayraktars KE AI has database
So our Air force will be totally unmanned

 

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