TR F-16 Özgür | Hürkuş - Fighter Trainer Aircraft Projects

[Afif]

He's got a point @AWP . You gotta knock down the radars 1st.

Akbaba may do the job.
Its Ramjet propulsion is gonna be unique.

 

[Ahlatshah]

Like it or not, KE is the only realistic option we have until 2030s. It can not take down F35 or Rafale on its own, but the concept is KE will be cheap and produced in numbers: 5 KE against 1 F35, in terms of cost, production and in the field. It is not impossible

BUT, we have to come out with a good radar, good A2A missiles (especially Gokhan), twin engine version, keep its cost under 15 million USD so it can be produced in numbers. Only then KE can make a difference.

 

[blackjack]

This is what Russians thought will happen in Ukraine too... Still the Ukrainian Air Force is flying and making sorties to this day. And on top of that Greeks have a better Air Force, Air Defense and infrastructure than Ukraine. To destroy a whole air base you will need a nuke. Planes can be flown and landed on highways too.

Russians throw rockets and missiles on Ukraine every single day and still Ukraine is able to function and fight back.

I dont even remember hearing any news lately about ukraine doing any kind of bombing. If such a thing happened, they would have already gotten passed atheist the 1st russian line of defense and didn't have the need to beg for F-16s.

 

[YeşilVatan]

The way I see it; Greeks, like many westerners have a platform fetish. They think F-35 would be a silver bullet that will finally hand them air dominance. I think that is a grave mistake. Will they have deep strike capability? Yes. Will they be able to 'snipe' our air assets? also yes. Will this guarantee them air dominance? hell no.

• In a few short years, we will have a very robust stratified air defence umbrella. It's going to be network centric. That would pose a significant threat even to the vaunted F-35.
• We have good EW capability and it's going to be better. HAVA SOJ is a thing, and even if it's rendered useless, we are distributing our EW capability to smaller drones via EW pods now. Who even knows how that factor would play out? If I were betting man, I'd say it would be a major, if not deciding factor.
• We know for a fact that we can produce MALD like decoys. Maybe make them a cornerstone of our strategy. What are they going to do when they see 500 F-16s on the screen?
• We know for a fact that TAF can conduct air operations on a massive scale, with more than 100 airframes over enemy territory. I'll concede that these are bombing raids but it still speaks to the level of organization TAF has. I don't think any other country can boost such capability, except US and maybe France.
• Platforms such as Akıncı will be able to fire BVRAAM missiles. If we get, say, 40 of them, that's 40 more flying things that should be shot down, at a significant range.
• We don't know how 100+ TB2s in the air will affect a peer-to-peer air war. What if they suffer massive casualities but deplete enemy air defense? What if they force other air assets to 'reveal' themselves? How would it work? I can't even guess. But it's more than hundred expendable air assets. That's going to make a strategic impact. And also, newer kamikaze drones.
• Our country has significant strategic depth, and we can transfer assets from other places or shoot missiles from way inlands.
• Our submarines are matched or better already. Reis class will be way better. Didn't we launch a ballistic missile from one in the past year? That's gonna affect things. Have fun searching for Turkish subs in the Ionian Sea.
• This is always brought up in these discussions, but that's because it's true: we have a massive ballistic missile card up our sleeve.

Our nightmare scenario is all of our air assets destroyed, our infrastructure bombed to bits, and our land forces are in a shattered retreat towards İstanbul. Things can't be worse than that. This scenario is simply not possible. Greeks can't coordinate an air campaign that can cripple our entire military infrastructure in a short enough timeframe, their land forces are not able to take, let alone hold a city as large as Edirne, their navy is sort of useless in the the offensive context in the Aegean front, as is ours btw.

Aging F-16s and the usefulness of Kızılelma can and should be debated. They are valid issues. But when it comes to the Greek military, I believe the whole picture is brighter than most think. The real problem is US bases around the sea of islands, and the endless hypocrisy of westerners when it comes to us. Whatever happens, we will always be seen as monsters and may even face harsher punishment than Russians.

Anyways, my vote is we wait 10 more years and let Greeks be destroyed by its demographic winter. And nuclear deterrence to avoid full scale westoid invasion.

 

[Heartbang]

The way I see it; Greeks, like many westerners have a platform fetish. They think F-35 would be a silver bullet that will finally hand them air dominance. I think that is a grave mistake. Will they have deep strike capability? Yes. Will they be able to 'snipe' our air assets? also yes. Will this guarantee them air dominance? hell no.

• In a few short years, we will have a very robust stratified air defence umbrella. It's going to be network centric. That would pose a significant threat even to the vaunted F-35.
• We have good EW capability and it's going to be better. HAVA SOJ is a thing, and even if it's rendered useless, we are distributing our EW capability to smaller drones via EW pods now. Who even knows how that factor would play out? If I were betting man, I'd say it would be a major, if not deciding factor.
• We know for a fact that we can produce MALD like decoys. Maybe make them a cornerstone of our strategy. What are they going to do when they see 500 F-16s on the screen?
• We know for a fact that TAF can conduct air operations on a massive scale, with more than 100 airframes over enemy territory. I'll concede that these are bombing raids but it still speaks to the level of organization TAF has. I don't think any other country can boost such capability, except US and maybe France.
• Platforms such as Akıncı will be able to fire BVRAAM missiles. If we get, say, 40 of them, that's 40 more flying things that should be shot down, at a significant range.
• We don't know how 100+ TB2s in the air will affect a peer-to-peer air war. What if they suffer massive casualities but deplete enemy air defense? What if they force other air assets to 'reveal' themselves? How would it work? I can't even guess. But it's more than hundred expendable air assets. That's going to make a strategic impact. And also, newer kamikaze drones.
• Our country has significant strategic depth, and we can transfer assets from other places or shoot missiles from way inlands.
• Our submarines are matched or better already. Reis class will be way better. Didn't we launch a ballistic missile from one in the past year? That's gonna affect things. Have fun searching for Turkish subs in the Ionian Sea.
• This is always brought up in these discussions, but that's because it's true: we have a massive ballistic missile card up our sleeve.

Our nightmare scenario is all of our air assets destroyed, our infrastructure bombed to bits, and our land forces are in a shattered retreat towards İstanbul. Things can't be worse than that. This scenario is simply not possible. Greeks can't coordinate an air campaign that can cripple our entire military infrastructure in a short enough timeframe, their land forces are not able to take, let alone hold a city as large as Edirne, their navy is sort of useless in the the offensive context in the Aegean front, as is ours BTW.

Aging F-16s and the usefulness of Kızılelma can and should be debated. They are valid issues. But when it comes to the Greek military, I believe the whole picture is brighter than most think. The real problem is US bases around the sea of islands, and the endless hypocrisy of westerners when it comes to us. Whatever happens, we will always be seen as monsters and may even face harsher punishment than Russians.

Anyways, my vote is we wait 10 more years and let Greeks be destroyed by its demographic winter. And nuclear deterrence to avoid full scale westoid invasion.

You forgot ANKA-3's and their TOLUN's wreaking havoc on Greek air base runways and keeping those planes stuck to the ground.

Reis class will be way better. Didn't we launch a ballistic missile from one in the past year?

Did we?

 

[YeşilVatan]

Did we?

I remember so. It wasn't a vertical launch, more like a torpedo tube launch. I remember seeing the video of it popping out of the water and taking off.

 

[Heartbang]

I remember so. It wasn't a vertical launch, more like a torpedo tube launch. I remember seeing the video of it popping out of the water and taking off.

Is this the launch you refer to?

 

[YeşilVatan]

Is this the launch you refer to?

Yup it is

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

Anyways, my vote is we wait 10 more years and let Greeks be destroyed by its demographic winter. And nuclear deterrence to avoid full scale westoid invasion.

I like this Idea but keep in mind that we have a demographic problem ourselves (syrians, afghans etc.) I'm sure outside forces will use them like they did with p*k donkeys.

 

[Ryder]

Turkiye needs to realise its neighbours all fight differently.

So Turkiye cant be just focused on the Greeks.

 

[Samba]

If Ukrainian war show anything, Yes you can over-saturate any target.

I dont want to get into this silly war game scenarios but here goes nothing. In any hypothetical war, We need to be able to over-saturate every greek naval base, airbase and naval ship. Çakır missile is developed for this mission and We will need more Çakır than Greece's entire SAM missile arsenal in the first day of the war alone, We would use 500+ missile at bare minimum. And This should cost 100-250m$ (0,2-0,5 m$ * 500) . This is doable within 5 years. No need to use Cenk for most target, It is only necessary for Peloponnese Region, Adriatic sea and around Athens. So, We can destroy Greece's SAM capabilities at a fraction of the cost And It is important to remember it took over a year for Ukraine to get Western SAM. And You can bet Greece wont get replacement less than a couple week.

Regardless of any scenario, today's war should be won in a week, otherwise it is lost almost in every aspect. It doesn't matter how strong you are.

See the USA vs Taliban (Afghanistan)

See Russia vs Ukraine

 

[GoatsMilk]

Regardless of any scenario, today's war should be won in a week, otherwise it is lost almost in every aspect. It doesn't matter how strong you are.

See the USA vs Taliban (Afghanistan)

See Russia vs Ukraine

Definitely seems to be the case, but i also think a big part of having geopolitical influence is measured by the amount of military gear and technology you have. The Russians were able to get away with a lot because of the perception of this massive military with a 1000 plus fighter jets, 20,000 plus tanks etc. On paper their power seemed immense, and that perception gave them great influence and ability to move. Despite the reality being quite the opposite as witnessed in Ukraine.

 

[Bogeyman]

Definitely seems to be the case, but i also think a big part of having geopolitical influence is measured by the amount of military gear and technology you have. The Russians were able to get away with a lot because of the perception of this massive military with a 1000 plus fighter jets, 20,000 plus tanks etc. On paper their power seemed immense, and that perception gave them great influence and ability to move. Despite the reality being quite the opposite as witnessed in Ukraine.

Technically, the Russians fought with NATO, not Ukraine. Ukraine's ammunition and air-missile defense capacity was not enough to stand alone against Russia. Since it was not enough, NATO was already involved in the war covertly. Ukraine almost exploited the marrow of all NATO with the ammunition stock it spent in the first year of the war.

 

[boredaf]

Technically, the Russians fought with NATO, not Ukraine. Ukraine's ammunition and air-missile defense capacity was not enough to stand alone against Russia. Since it was not enough, NATO was already involved in the war covertly. Ukraine almost exploited the marrow of all NATO with the ammunition stock it spent in the first year of the war.

That is not true whatsoever. Sure, NATO has given Ukraine weapons and munitions, but, what NATO has given is nothing but a drop in the ocean that is NATO's arsenal. 155mm shells and rockets for older systems, while they are not without their worth, of course, NATO didn't supply their deadliest and most effective weapons, mostly because they wanted to draw out this war as long as possible to deplete the Russians, which has worked. If NATO truly wanted fight against Russians on the side of Ukraine, this war would've been over long ago.

 

[B_A]

Definitely seems to be the case, but i also think a big part of having geopolitical influence is measured by the amount of military gear and technology you have. The Russians were able to get away with a lot because of the perception of this massive military with a 1000 plus fighter jets, 20,000 plus tanks etc. On paper their power seemed immense, and that perception gave them great influence and ability to move. Despite the reality being quite the opposite as witnessed in Ukraine.

Nuclear weapons and Oil and other natural resource

Also the help from China

 

[UkroTurk]

Need to import those commercial humansid robots and upload flight manuals ( i know being fighter pilot more than flight manuals) . Bayraktars KE AI has database
So our Air force will be totally unmanned

 

[Bogeyman]

That is not true whatsoever. Sure, NATO has given Ukraine weapons and munitions, but, what NATO has given is nothing but a drop in the ocean that is NATO's arsenal. 155mm shells and rockets for older systems, while they are not without their worth, of course, NATO didn't supply their deadliest and most effective weapons, mostly because they wanted to draw out this war as long as possible to deplete the Russians, which has worked. If NATO truly wanted fight against Russians on the side of Ukraine, this war would've been over long ago.

When the ammunition of Ukraine's air defense systems based on the Soviet Russian architecture was exhausted, NATO added ammunition from Eastern European countries. Again, by promising Eastern European countries modern warplanes and tanks, NATO shipped warplanes and tanks, air defense systems, IFVs and APCs left from the Soviet Union to Ukraine. If Ukraine had been left to its own devices, we would all have seen what the real meat grinder was there.

Going back to the beginning, NATO's early warning aircraft surveillance flights never stopped, providing continuous intelligence to Ukraine. In addition, the cruiser Moskva was hit with the support of NATO aircraft.
Without this intelligence support and the training given to the soldiers, there would be no war at all. The Russians would smash it.

Ukraine did not even have money to pay the salaries of its own people. These coins do not grow on trees. It comes from the West.

 

[Lool]

When the ammunition of Ukraine's air defense systems based on the Soviet Russian architecture was exhausted, NATO added ammunition from Eastern European countries. Again, by promising Eastern European countries modern warplanes and tanks, NATO shipped warplanes and tanks, air defense systems, IFVs and APCs left from the Soviet Union to Ukraine. If Ukraine had been left to its own devices, we would all have seen what the real meat grinder was there.

Going back to the beginning, NATO's early warning aircraft surveillance flights never stopped, providing continuous intelligence to Ukraine. In addition, the cruiser Moskva was hit with the support of NATO aircraft.
Without this intelligence support and the training given to the soldiers, there would be no war at all. The Russians would smash it.

Ukraine did not even have money to pay the salaries of its own people. These coins do not grow on trees. It comes from the West.

No one is denying that NATO didnt have a role in supporting Ukraine to fight the war. It is without a doubt, that Ukraine is still alive to this day thx to NATO. However, let us admit that NATO is purposefully drawing out this shitty war by postponing the deliveries of advanced weapons systems to ensure that the Russians bleed out as much as possible.

IMO, NATO's main goal is to ensure that Ukraine's military strength is on par with Russia and not above it in order to inflict the maximum amount of damage on the Russians, Russian state and the Russian economy itself and it is working.

NATO only sends more advanced weapons system once every 6 months to 1 year with the latest being the F16s being delivered to Ukraine by the end of 2024 or the beginning of 2025 which can give us a glimpse to how long the US wanna wage the lovely war

Rumors suggest that Russia spent nearly 20% of its yearly state budget on the defence industry in the first 6 months alone; thus, going by this trend, by the ejd of the year, Russia will spend nearly 40% of its budget on the war if not more. So the question remians, how on earth will Putin cover the gap for paying the state institutions this year without harming the economy. Answer: Impossible

Just look at the ruble and the current account of Russia

At the end of the day, it is the Ukrainian citizen who will end up deported, tortured and raped till this war ends.... period! Since Putin, even if he lost, managed to decimate a decent chunk of Ukrainian lands and people to the ground just like what a terrorist would do

 

[Hasanrize]

Need to import those commercial humansid robots and upload flight manuals ( i know being fighter pilot more than flight manuals) . Bayraktars KE AI has database
So our Air force will be totally unmanned

Those humanoid robots are utterly useless, except for mental effects. They are even more useless in as pilots or crew in manned vehicles.

Nowadays, pilots give commands to the flight computer, and that flight computer calculates the measures and gives another order to control surfaces and aircraft maneuvers. So when there is no pilot on board, it will be artificial intelligence connected to the mission computer will do the work of the pilot, not another 300-kilo robot sitting on the pilot seat.

 

[Zafer]

Those humanoid robots are utterly useless, except for mental effects. They are even more useless in as pilots or crew in manned vehicles.

Nowadays, pilots give commands to the flight computer, and that flight computer calculates the measures and gives another order to control surfaces and aircraft maneuvers. So when there is no pilot on board, it will be artificial intelligence connected to the mission computer will do the work of the pilot, not another 300-kilo robot sitting on the pilot seat.

It is more efficient to employ a computer to the task but they actually made a robot with arms to manipulate cockpit controls. This makes deployment easier.

That pilot in the cockpit may someday be a robot

Think of it as the airborne cousin to the self-driving car: a robot in the cockpit to help human pilots fly passengers and cargo -- and eventually even replace them.

www.bangkokpost.com

The humanoid robot that can pilot an airplane better than a human

The robot’s memory is so large that it can memorise all Jeppesen navigation charts, a task that is impossible for human pilots.

www.euronews.com