TR F-16 Özgür | Hürkuş - Fighter Trainer Aircraft Projects

[Heartbang]

Turkish officials have announced today that domestic modernization of the first F16 fighter has just been completed.
If Turkish arms industry has such capability, why did Turkey want so badly to order block-70 modernization from the US?

Purely bureaucratic.
Equipment bought from US cannot be modified for 30 years. Block 30's are past that line, Block 50's are not(yet).

But since the US is being such a heel, Block 50's might also get the same treatment earlier.

 

[Rodeo]

Equipment bought from US cannot be modified for 30 years.

I've been hearing this for quite some time now but I think it's a myth. I haven't seen any official paper delineating it.

@Nilgiri @Yasar @Windchime @Chocopie

 

[Azeri441]

This has probably been discussed already, but is Ozgur flying with Aselsan AESA radar?

 

[Heartbang]

I've been hearing this for quite some time now but I think it's a myth. I haven't seen any official paper delineating it.

A member of this very forum delved into the relevant papers and proved it's existence before. I'm sure he'd show up.

 

[Rodeo]

A member of this very forum delved into the relevant papers and proved it's existence before. I'm sure he'd show up.

Do you mean this post?

Air Forces|News & Discussion

By the same token, I could ask "why would they send an untested radar to Baykar if Baykar couldn't test it on AKINCI?" . I'm not really well versed in the testing campaign of an AESA radar. There probably never was any AESA that was tested on a drone. The countries that are able to develop such...

defencehub.live

 

[Lool]

Turkish officials have announced today that domestic modernization of the first F16 fighter has just been completed.
If Turkish arms industry has such capability, why did Turkey want so badly to order block-70 modernization from the US?

The reason why Turkey opted for the block-70 planes was due to the fact that the US refused to give Turkey the billions of dollars it invested when it was in the F35 program. Legally, it was Turkey's right to take its moeny back but the US refused and after a lot of bickering and threatening of taking this to court, the US offered the Turks to buy another american product worth the moeny they invested in the program

 

[begturan]

Turkish officials have announced today that domestic modernization of the first F16 fighter has just been completed.
If Turkish arms industry has such capability, why did Turkey want so badly to order block-70 modernization from the US?

it is political maneuvers only our state knows what is the reasons.

 

[Merzifonlu]

it is political maneuvers only our state knows what is the reasons.

Turkey's swell.

All this drama will not be necessary when the TEI TF-10000 turbofan engine and Murad AESA radar enter the inventory in high numbers. We first modify Hürjet with those devices. Next, we add the KE and Anka III drones. Hürjet manages them. And so we can build a relatively cheap air force that can handle all the missions of the current F16 fleet.

There is no need to wait for national fighter Kaan, in that case.

 

[Heartbang]

Do you mean this post?

Air Forces|News & Discussion

By the same token, I could ask "why would they send an untested radar to Baykar if Baykar couldn't test it on AKINCI?" . I'm not really well versed in the testing campaign of an AESA radar. There probably never was any AESA that was tested on a drone. The countries that are able to develop such...

defencehub.live

Yeah. Gonna save that just in case.

 

[Baryshx]

Forget Harm design bro. Akbaba will be a game changer from many aspect.

AGM-88E level, or even higher?

I read years ago that the US was going to make a ramjet version of the AGM-88, I don't know if they went ahead or not.

 

[Anastasius]

AGM-88E level, or even higher?

I read years ago that the US was going to make a ramjet version of the AGM-88, I don't know if they went ahead or not.

AARGM-ER is what you're thinking of.

 

[Baryshx]

AARGM-ER is what you're thinking of.

 

[Rodeo]

Yeah. Gonna save that just in case.

That was my post and there's no 30 years time limit to the end use monitoring program, as far as i could see.

 

[uçuyorum]

That was my post and there's no 30 years time limit to the end use monitoring program, as far as i could see.

What are the repercussions though, are these absolute? Like does it void the warranty? I mean could you realistically ignore it and live with the results?

 

[Chocopie]

I've been hearing this for quite some time now but I think it's a myth. I haven't seen any official paper delineating it.

@Nilgiri @Yasar @Windchime @Chocopie

Never seen such a 30 years regulation on official documents. Is the Turkish Özgür upgrade done with US approval? Always wondered about that ...

My guess is, such modification permissions are results of direct negotiations between US gov and foreign states.

As an example, Israeli F-16s had major modifications regarding airframe design and avionics:

• F-16 A/B had software changes of mission computer and avionics to integrate Israeli made-weapons.
• F-16 C/D had major structural changes of the airframe (done by General Dynamcis then)
• F-16I Sufa differs fundamentally to conventional F-16s (dorsal spine compartment with Israeli "electronics equipment", Elbit mission and avionics computers etc. High suspicion that Israel received relevant source codes from the get go. As an US incentive to give up its own Lavi fighter project)
• F-35I are also extensively different to other configurations (esp. Israeli avionics, sub-systems)

ROKAF upgrade program for KF-16 was a major clusterfuck until recently:

1. Upgrade: 35 F-16 C/D Block 32 upgraded since 2010s to Block 52 level (by Lockheed Martin for $250 mil.), no hiccups so far.

2. Upgrade: 134 KF-16 C/D Block 52 (mostly license-built by Samsung Aerospace = now KAI) contract won in 2012 by BAE Systems US subsidiary. First upgrade deal awarded to a non-OEM company for a fixed-price of $1,05 billion (AN/APG-84 AESA radar by Raytheon, new databus, Link-16 and avionics etc). Two KF-16 were already converted by BAE Systems in the USA.

Then things went sour over the years: US gov classified the deal as Foreign Military Sale and not as Direct Commercial Sale. Price hikes of $471 mil. by US gov and $282 mil. by BAE Systems for project delays resulted in $753 mil. added costs = $1,7 bil. in total!

Korean gov and public freaked out, cancelled the whole deal in 2014. BAE Systems USA sued SK gov for financial losses. Koreans went total apeshit and US-ROK relations reached a low point.

Finally in 2018 Lockheed Martin as original manufacturer obtained their upgrade contract for $1,2+ billion: now with AN/APG-83 AESA radar by Northrop Grumman and other modifications to Viper standards. Koreans are still pissed off to no end ... US "blood ally" my ass.

Good overview of said events and F-16 upgrade saga found here:

South Korea Launches KF-16 Fighter Upgrades Upended - Defense Industry Daily

ROKAF KF-16 (click to view full) In July 2009, The Korea Times reported that ROKAF was looking to upgrade its F-16C/D fleet's radar and armament, as part of the 2010-2014 arms acquisition and management package submitted to President Lee Myung-bak for approval. Under the Peace Bridge II and II...

www.defenseindustrydaily.com

 

[Blackeyes90]

I still cant get my head around that 20 Billion price tag for our Modernization deal ? How is that even possible ?

 

[Kitra]

That was my post and there's no 30 years time limit to the end use monitoring program, as far as i could see.

The whole 30 year thing is a common misunderstanding of how patents work, which typically are valid for 20-30 years depending on country.

People think you can't modify your own equipment just bcs it is patented. They simply don't know that patents are only relevant for commercial use in a specific country/region. Anyone can go and buy a brand new Mercedes and pimp it out on the first day.

The problem is that the supplier can refuse to service any modified unit so one does not normally pimp brand new cars/fighters but rather older units outside of service agreements.

For military equipment, there might further bilateral agreements as described above which might limit your possibility to modify, use or resell your equipment. Such agreements do not typically have time limits bit have political consequences such as embargo if broken.

 

[Sanchez]

Never seen such a 30 years regulation on official documents. Is the Turkish Özgür upgrade done with US approval? Always wondered about that ...

My guess is, such modification permissions are results of direct negotiations between US gov and foreign states.

As an example, Israeli F-16s had major modifications regarding airframe design and avionics:

• F-16 A/B had software changes of mission computer and avionics to integrate Israeli made-weapons.
• F-16 C/D had major structural changes of the airframe (done by General Dynamcis then)
• F-16I Sufa differs fundamentally to conventional F-16s (dorsal spine compartment with Israeli "electronics equipment", Elbit mission and avionics computers etc. High suspicion that Israel received relevant source codes from the get go. As an US incentive to give up its own Lavi fighter project)
• F-35I are also extensively different to other configurations (esp. Israeli avionics, sub-systems)

ROKAF upgrade program for KF-16 was a major clusterfuck until recently:

1. Upgrade: 35 F-16 C/D Block 32 upgraded since 2010s to Block 52 level (by Lockheed Martin for $250 mil.), no hiccups so far.

2. Upgrade: 134 KF-16 C/D Block 52 (mostly license-built by Samsung Aerospace = now KAI) contract won in 2012 by BAE Systems US subsidiary. First upgrade deal awarded to a non-OEM company for a fixed-price of $1,05 billion (AN/APG-84 AESA radar by Raytheon, new databus, Link-16 and avionics etc). Two KF-16 were already converted by BAE Systems in the USA.

Then things went sour over the years: US gov classified the deal as Foreign Military Sale and not as Direct Commercial Sale. Price hikes of $471 mil. by US gov and $282 mil. by BAE Systems for project delays resulted in $753 mil. added costs = $1,7 bil. in total!

Korean gov and public freaked out, cancelled the whole deal in 2014. BAE Systems USA sued SK gov for financial losses. Koreans went total apeshit and US-ROK relations reached a low point.

Finally in 2018 Lockheed Martin as original manufacturer obtained their upgrade contract for $1,2+ billion: now with AN/APG-83 AESA radar by Northrop Grumman and other modifications to Viper standards. Koreans are still pissed off to no end ... US "blood ally" my ass.

Good overview of said events and F-16 upgrade saga found here:

South Korea Launches KF-16 Fighter Upgrades Upended - Defense Industry Daily

ROKAF KF-16 (click to view full) In July 2009, The Korea Times reported that ROKAF was looking to upgrade its F-16C/D fleet's radar and armament, as part of the 2010-2014 arms acquisition and management package submitted to President Lee Myung-bak for approval. Under the Peace Bridge II and II...

www.defenseindustrydaily.com

Per Israel, US for example simply did not allow Israel to transfer their F-16As to Bulgaria some years back.

Turkey did get the source codes for the Block 30(and I believe also block 40) F-16's from US in 2000s when they were negotiation on the CCIP deal. Özgür is done independently of the US. 37 Block 30 aircraft can and probably will go through Özgür. These aircraft are also undergoing SLEP to increase their hull life from 8k to 12k hours. We also have some, I think about 5-6(?) Block 40s that didn't go through CCIP, and theoretically they can also be a part of Özgür.

All of our other Block 40s however did undergo CCIP and we don't have the source code for those ones. Still not clear how that fits into "they will also be undergoing Özgür mod" without US acceptance or assistance.

 

[Terrain]

The odd thing is TAI is idle when Baykar is pushing full force towards unmanned fighters, and that is their mistake for taking Baykar and aerospace industry lightly.
In my opinion, TAI could with a little modification can transform KAAN in to a unmanned 6th gen fighter. Just like that.
But I understand because we are not used to taking advantage of an easy solution we do it after it hits us that is why we label our people as clean hearted.

But it shouldn't be at this level.

-

 

[Zafer]

The odd thing is TAI is idle when Baykar is pushing full force towards unmanned fighters, and that is their mistake for taking Baykar and aerospace industry lightly.
In my opinion, TAI could with a little modification can transform KAAN in to a unmanned 6th gen fighter. Just like that.
But I understand because we are not used to taking advantage of an easy solution we do it after it hits us that is why we label our people as clean hearted.

But it shouldn't be at this level.

-

We don't want our companies to compete for similar platforms.

Baykar is all about unmanned.
TAI can make planes unmanned to backup for pilot failure and they most likely will.