TR F-16 Özgür | Hürkuş - Fighter Trainer Aircraft Projects

[GoatsMilk]

Exactly my point. TurAF is so stretched thin, especially regarding fighters that, we cannot afford failing at KAAN. We cannot even afford small delays numbered in few years. It HAS to work and it HAS to work in time, or we are in deep shit. Underpowered KEs that can't talk to our F-16s like F-35s can between themselves and turboprop Akıncıs are not substitutes for fighter jets.

It didn't have to be this way. Can anyone imagine a scenario where we lose 5 years in achieving FOC for KAAN and Americans change their mind and don't supply us with subcomponents for Özgür? How does TurAF look in 2035 in that scenario?

I also think in our geography we really need double the number of jets we field. The number is good in relative peace, but i think if we ever had to engage in a full scale war with a nation being supplied from outside we need to be able sustain heavy material losses.

I don't expect us to be as stupid in war as Russia, but at the same time Russia invaded a relatively weak nation with ideal geography for invading. A small nothing nation like greece is a hundred times better armed then Ukraine and if war comes expect them to not only get support from the west, but support from Russia and support from much of the middle east.

*On a side note, if you have 500+ KAAN's, i doubt anyone is going to start a war with us.

 

[Xenon54]

Kızılelma will start production in six months but what does it matter? So is TF6000 coming online in a couple of years, but what difference can it make? Do we have to rely on borrowed power to feel safe, NO. We can only rely on our own power and it is coming.

You seriously expect Kizilelma to replace any kind of fighter jet, not to mention 5th gen?
You guys are betting on hopes and prayers which is a stupid thing to do regarding the defence of your nation, to put it mildly...

regarding our Air force TODAY may be we are currently not in an ideal situation this is a fact however our growing emphasis on balistic missiles, Air defence systems or navy projects like istif and hisar (showing flag in Mavi Vatan) ''ideal or not'' are seeking to provide at least short term solutions and I believe buying us enough time for Özgür or KAAN..

@500 once said Ballistic missiles are the Airforce of poor man.

There simply is no replacement for a propper airforce when its about defending your borders, best exsample is the downing of Russian jet that came from Syria, what would we have done without the F-16? Shoot Rockets to Russia as a warning?

 

[GoatsMilk]

You seriously expect Kizilelma to replace any kind of fighter jet, not to mention 5th gen?
You guys are betting on hopes and prayers which is a stupid thing to do regarding the defence of your nation, to put it mildly...

I agree with this sentiment.

For me KE is really about what it can become rather then what it is now. I suspect if they continue developing this thing with new iterations for the next 20 years, potentially it will turn into a 6th gen fighter jet.

 

[Xenon54]

I agree with this sentiment.

For me KE is really about what it can become rather then what it is now. I suspect if they continue developing this thing with new iterations for the next 20 years, potentially it will turn into a 6th gen fighter jet.

Honestly we have no clue about its capabilities other than that its resembling a 5th gen fighter without a canopy, there are wild claims of A.I. autonomous dog fights and what not. But there simply is no hard evidence for any of the claimed capabilities yet some people really hope that KE will somehow solve our problems regarding airfoce.

 

[uçuyorum]

I expect KE, in addition to all the stuff our current UAV do with higher payloads / longer ranged munitions, to perform A2A missions as an extension of other air defence systems against most 4th gen and somewhat less modern aircraft, like Migs and Sukhoi etc. It would be additional capability that reduces the strain on main fighter fleet with cheaper operating costs.

 

[Quasar]

You seriously expect Kizilelma to replace any kind of fighter jet, not to mention 5th gen?
You guys are betting on hopes and prayers which is a stupid thing to do regarding the defence of your nation, to put it mildly...


@500 once said Ballistic missiles are the Airforce of poor man.

There simply is no replacement for a propper airforce when its about defending your borders, best exsample is the downing of Russian jet that came from Syria, what would we have done without the F-16? Shoot Rockets to Russia as a warning?

if, should, could, would.... right or wrong this is not my point

TODAY WHAT WE ARE DOİNG is ''our growing emphasis on balistic missiles, Air defence systems or navy projects like istif and hisar (showing flag in Mavi Vatan) ''ideal or not'' are seeking to provide at least short term solutions and I believe buying us enough time for Özgür and KAAN..''

This is an observation bro! if you want you can disagree and say no there is no growing emphasis on balistic missiles and Air defence systems (+cruise missiles) in Turkey

REGARDİNG our Air force if we can not magicly bring Özgur and KAAN in to existance tomorrow. ... our options are limited for NOW

 

[uçuyorum]

if, should, could, would.... right, wrong this is not my point

TODAY WHAT WE ARE DOİNG is ''our growing emphasis on balistic missiles, Air defence systems or navy projects like istif and hisar (showing flag in Mavi Vatan) ''ideal or not'' are seeking to provide at least short term solutions and I believe buying us enough time for Özgür or KAAN..''

This is an observation! if you want you can disagree and say no there is no growing emphasis on balistic missiles, Air defence systems in Turkey

regarding our Air force if we can not magicly bring Özgur or KAAN in to existance tomorrow. ... our options are limited

I mean yes, we are not doomed, so if we can't get x we'll get what we can and desperate times call for desperate measures mentality is understandable. Whether it will work or not, we shall see, but if Iran can manage we should be able to. It is a sad sentence to be writing however.

 

[Xenon54]

if, should, could, would.... right or wrong this is not my point

TODAY WHAT WE ARE DOİNG is ''our growing emphasis on balistic missiles, Air defence systems or navy projects like istif and hisar (showing flag in Mavi Vatan) ''ideal or not'' are seeking to provide at least short term solutions and I believe buying us enough time for Özgür or KAAN..''

This is an observation bro! if you want you can disagree and say no there is no growing emphasis on balistic missiles and Air defence systems in Turkey

REGARDİNG our Air force if we can not magicly bring Özgur or KAAN in to existance tomorrow. ... our options are limited for NOW

There is nothing disagreeing with your comment yet you get offended... anyways.
My point is whats being done today is simply not enough, most wars are won on the table and thats where our nation has been on a constant losing streak in recent decades. We need a sophisticated foreign policy, only then we can afford to fall behind our adversaries but what have we done? Basicaly ruined relations with everyone and put ourselves between rock and a hard place.

People simply say we just have no other option as if this was something to say so lightly, how fast people have forgotten that nations like Turkey can not afford to be without an option or a plan b.
I really hope for the success of KAAN, otherwise things look grim tbh.

 

[Zafer]

You seriously expect Kizilelma to replace any kind of fighter jet, not to mention 5th gen?
You guys are betting on hopes and prayers which is a stupid thing to do regarding the defence of your nation, to put it mildly...


@500 once said Ballistic missiles are the Airforce of poor man.

There simply is no replacement for a propper airforce when its about defending your borders, best exsample is the downing of Russian jet that came from Syria, what would we have done without the F-16? Shoot Rockets to Russia as a warning?

It is stupid to think a manned fighter pilot will take on an unmanned fighter in close combat. UCAVs have their superiorities and manned fighters will avoid contact. It is even more stupid to think I am thinking that Kızılelma will replace Kaan, they will complement eac other. But again reasoning with unreasonable is a waste of time.

 

[Xenon54]

It is stupid to think a manned fighter pilot will take on an unmanned fighter in close combat. UCAVs have their superiorities and manned fighters will avoid contact. It is even more stupid to think I am thinking that Kızılelma will replace Kaan, they will complement eac other. But again reasoning with unreasonable is a waste of time.

You make bold claims, pleas show me a drone thats capable of close air combat with any fighter.

 

[Zafer]

You make bold claims, pleas show me a drone thats capable of close air combat with any fighter.

You probably want to disregard Kızılelma's capabilities. The supersonic model being unmanned is expendable and will see no harm in taking on any fighter and firing its weapons.

 

[godel44]

Not to interrupt a good fight here but do people think KE can really do nothing at all against 4th gen aircraft? Here is an article that was posted here before where authors make a calculation that shows the opposite. I guess you guys dispute some of their assumptions?

In terms of TurAf strength, I think we all basically think the same thing: for ground missions we have never been stronger due to domestic production, which is why we can bomb PKK in Syria without running out of ammunition in a few days. For air to air we have a challenge to complete with Kaan. But our A2A strength was always context dependent. Even if we had F-35 we probably wouldn't be able to use it against anyone US doesn't want and if we do fight against someone US wants us to like Russia, we might even get F-35s as a gift.

 

[Xenon54]

You probably want to disregard Kızılelma's capabilities. The supersonic model being unmanned is expendable and will see no harm in taking on any fighter and firing its weapons.

Disregard what? We dont even know what capabilities it has yet, all we have seen so far are bold claims from the manufacturer without showing anything yet, if you have anything substancial in that regard then please come forward and enlighten me, im more than happy to be corrected if its about the defence of my nation.
Apart from that i havent even said anything about whether it will be capable or not except that it will not be able to replace fighter jets anytime soon.

 

[AWP]

once said Ballistic missiles are the Airforce of poor man.

absolutely wrong

In case of war ( Turkey vs Greece for example ), let's say 300 Typhoon missiles will evaporate all Greece air bases. Their air force will either land on sea or seek asylum in Izmir.

the Turkish EW capability + deep missile strike is a big nightmare .

 

[Zafer]

Disregard what? We dont even know what capabilities it has yet, all we have seen so far are bold claims from the manufacturer without showing anything yet, if you have anything substancial in that regard then please come forward and enlighten me, im more than happy to be corrected if its about the defence of my nation.
Apart from that i havent even said anything about whether it will be capable of not except that it will not be able to replace fighter jets anytime soon.

Its maneuvering is superb, there is no indication that it will lack big time in any aspect. It made more than half a dozen flights during last year's Teknofest. It even did formation flights with Turkish stars and Soloturk. I was kind of nervous a bit during overpass flights as it had only been months since its first flight.

 

[Deliorman]

absolutely wrong

In case of war ( Turkey vs Greece for example ), let's say 300 Typhoon missiles will evaporate all Greece air bases. Their air force will either land on sea or seek asylum in Izmir.

the Turkish EW capability + deep missile strike is a big nightmare .

This is what Russians thought will happen in Ukraine too... Still the Ukrainian Air Force is flying and making sorties to this day. And on top of that Greeks have a better Air Force, Air Defense and infrastructure than Ukraine. To destroy a whole air base you will need a nuke. Planes can be flown and landed on highways too.

Russians throw rockets and missiles on Ukraine every single day and still Ukraine is able to function and fight back.

 

[Afif]

absolutely wrong

In case of war ( Turkey vs Greece for example ), let's say 300 Typhoon missiles will evaporate all Greece air bases. Their air force will either land on sea or seek asylum in Izmir.

the Turkish EW capability + deep missile strike is a big nightmare .

There is a reason why Greece has 6 patriot batteries. Both PAC-2 and PAC-3.

Without adequate SEAD/DEAD capability you can't just shoot large numbers of balistic missiles as a primary strategy, as Ukraine war showed Patriot will shoot down vast majority of them.

And Don't think I am downplaying Tyfun's capability.

Characteristic wise it is not so much different than Iskander or Kinzal.

Despite having some maneuverability, any quasi balistic missile has physical limitations that cannot be exceeded.

And PAC-3 60g capable superior interceptor will always exploit those limitations.

 

[UkroTurk]

This is what Russians thought will happen in Ukraine too... Still the Ukrainian Air Force is flying and making sorties to this day. And on top of that Greeks have a better Air Force, Air Defense and infrastructure than Ukraine. To destroy a whole air base you will need a nuke. Planes can be flown and landed on highways too.

Russians throw rockets and missiles on Ukraine every single day and still Ukraine is able to function and fight back.

AFAIK F-16s are heavily depended to airbase. Even You can not just ignite the engine. Soviet fighters more independent.

If Russia pollutes the runways, the US F-16 becomes unusable

bulgarianmilitary.com

 

[Heartbang]

There is a reason why Greece has 6 patriot batteries. Both PAC-2 and PAC-3.

Without adequate SEAD/DEAD capability you can't just shoot large numbers of balistic missiles as a primary strategy, as Ukraine war showed Patriot will shoot down vast majority of them, if not all.

And Don't think I am downplaying Tyfun's capability.

Characteristic wise it is not so much different than Iskander or Kinzal.

Despite having some maneuverability, any quasi balistic missile has physical limitations that cannot be exceeded.

And PAC-3 60g capable superior interceptor will always exploit those limitations.

He's got a point @AWP . You gotta knock down the radars 1st.

 

[Joe mark]

There is a reason why Greece has 6 patriot batteries. Both PAC-2 and PAC-3.

Without adequate SEAD/DEAD capability you can't just shoot large numbers of balistic missiles as a primary strategy, as Ukraine war showed Patriot will shoot down vast majority of them, if not all.

And Don't think I am downplaying Tyfun's capability.

Characteristic wise it is not so much different than Iskander or Kinzal.

Despite having some maneuverability, any quasi balistic missile has physical limitations that cannot be exceeded.

And PAC-3 60g capable superior interceptor will always exploit those limitations.

Your only problem is questioning Türkiye's capabilities and the credibility of its products. If it was another country, you wouldn't have commented