TR F-16 Özgür | Hürkuş - Fighter Trainer Aircraft Projects

[somegoodusername]

I know but man the F15s are sexy planes. Who can pass them up.

We must. If the deal comes down to either the Eurofighter or the F-15, we must choose the Eurofighter. Choosing the F-15 would mean increased dependency on the USA.

 

[uçuyorum]

We must. If the deal comes down to either the Eurofighter or the F-15, we must choose the Eurofighter. Choosing the F-15 would mean increased dependency on the USA.

Honestly, German politicians are such bootlickers of US and haters of Turks that it may be less dangerous to depend directly on US rather than depend Germany AND US for Eurofighter

 

[Saithan]

I am beginning to get sick from reading the stuff being posted. Everyone talking about EF, F15 etc. are beginning to seem more like bootlickers, beggars and such. We've got big problems and we're being stalled from dealing with them with these weird carrots dangling way out of the milkyway.

 

[Agha Sher]

They only start offering these systems when they know Turkiye will soon have its own alternatives. They are trying to kill Turkiye's domestic projects. Don't fall for their scheme. Stick with the F-16 until KE, ANKA 3, Hurjet and KAAN is ready.

 

[uçuyorum]

Problem is none of the alternatives are going to be here by the time we need them, nor any of the products we are building will be available in sufficient numbers and operating capacity in the time they advertise. Honestly, we'd probably have better luck if we bought like 40 JF-17 with modifications, Azerbaijan is getting fighters with aesa radars before we do.

 

[somegoodusername]

They only start offering these systems when they know Turkiye will soon have its own alternatives. They are trying to kill Turkiye's domestic projects. Don't fall for their scheme. Stick with the F-16 until KE, ANKA 3, Hurjet and KAAN is ready.

No. Turkish authorities, Turkish Air Force themselves wants new planes. Turkish government always wanted F-35's, now they want Eurofighters. It's not somethings Americans or Europeans want but Turkey wants. And they are not the ones who offers these systems, Turkey is the one who begs for this systems.

 

[Zafer]

The TF6000 and the TF10000 engines can be hastened, so do the planes that are supposed to us them. Engines can fly 2025-2026 probably. If these planes prove to be productive in a short timeframe then numbers of production can soar and we never look back.

 

[Nutuk]

If it was up to me I would not buy any US system anymore

 

[Saithan]

With the exception of F16, but I'd not allow that desire for purchase delay me in anyway.

In fact I would shutdown the X-band radar that we don't monitor or have control of. not much difficult to have roadwork accident that cuts off the power cables to the radar base.

 

[boredaf]

I am beginning to get sick from reading the stuff being posted. Everyone talking about EF, F15 etc. are beginning to seem more like bootlickers, beggars and such. We've got big problems and we're being stalled from dealing with them with these weird carrots dangling way out of the milkyway.

Then tell that to do government and the air force because they are the ones that want these planes.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I would not give a single cent more to the USA & Europe and would upgrade the remaining F-16s to the utmost with the latest Aselsan, TEI & TAI combat upgrades so that they can still fly and do their job until 2040/45.
After 2040/45, I would convert the best 80-100 F-16s as drones, and the rest of the F-16s as spare parts donors to be used on expendable and high-risk missions together with Kizilelma.

Based on TAI KAAN, I would then start developing a Single Jet Delta Canard Stealth Aircraft from 2035 that is really only extremely trimmed for cost optimization and takes over the tasks of the F-16 as a workhorse! This system should be convertible both manned and unmanned by making the front section of the aircraft (cockpit, radome, etc.) interchangeable in order to use it individually and flexibly according to the mission requirements.
From 2040, I would focus on increasing the combat value of TAI KAAN to GEN 5.5 and at the same time start developing a GEN 6 fighter aircraft from the blueprint phase so that we have a prototype from 2050.

In my opinion, this is the right roadmap for Turkey

 

[Zoth]

Everyone is talking about the possible purchase of F15s but none is mentioning of how is that going to happen when the CAATSA can't be removed due to S400s issue.

USA and Turkey hasn't even signed the f16 modernization and new F16 purchase deal yet.

The problem is deeper than that, USA even refuses to sell spare parts for some of F16s in Turkey due to CAATSA.

The F15 offer was made only and only because Germany is about to give the yes for Eurofighter sale to Turkey.

If you pay attention you can see that Turkey always purchases a big packages when it comes to USA, we want those engines that will be mounted both into Hurjet and Kaan, but we know that USA won't sell us the engines only, so we end up purchasing a big package so the engines also given.

 

[Sanchez]

I am beginning to get sick from reading the stuff being posted. Everyone talking about EF, F15 etc. are beginning to seem more like bootlickers, beggars and such. We've got big problems and we're being stalled from dealing with them with these weird carrots dangling way out of the milkyway.

Seems to me people don't really get the situation TurAF is in. TurAF is NATO's second largest air force and the third largest air force in the region. Some of its capabilities can only be matched by countries like France and Israel. But, unlike 10 or 20 years ago Turkey now ensures this numerical superiority with relatively outdated aircraft in the form of some 230 legacy F-16s, an important part of which are not used for combat duties. As far as i can remember, TurAF currently have 8(7 if you discount 113) combat squadrons made up of F-16s. That's it. It has one squadron specializing in SEAD duties, and two squadrons specializing in strike roles with more than usual LANTIRN share. This is our fighter aircraft inventory. TurAF was the first non-US NATO country to field a LANTIRN squadron in 90s that allowed to strike at night with precision in Yugoslavia. It was one of the first users of the Sniper pod, and the DB-110.

This technological edge TurAF had over its neighbours and adversaries is now lost in 2024. Now almost every neighbour that's worth talking about field more technologically advanced aircraft than TurAF, and in greater numbers than in the past. There is also the issue of training pilots and keeping up with the doctrinal and operational changes of the neighbouring air forces. While Kızılelma and Anka-3 are hopefully set to be great additions as part of OKU, they are not fighter jets, they can't replace the roles we give to our fighter jets. While it is good that we have hundreds of drones that can strike a moving vehicle outside of our borders, whenever a real target shows up, it's not the TB2 or Anka that is sent but an F-16 with 4 big PGMs under its wings. Israeli strikes in Lebanon and Yemen in the last 10 days I believe have showed everyone again that a fighter bomber is irreplaceable and gives the most capability for money spent.

Neither Özgür-II nor Kaan is coming soon enough and both require American acceptance to develop, produce and field and Kaan will not be delivered in meaningful numbers soon. There's issues to be talked about stopgap solutions, mainly about political back and forths and delivery times, but TurAF needs a new generation aircraft that is ready to be fielded without development as the world plunges to chaos. This is not a new topic, I wrote about a "B plan for the air force in case of issues and delays" in 2019. 5 years has passed, with no solution reached. Only thing that stands is that our aircraft are old and the replacements we are working on are still in early stages of development project scale wise.

The F15 offer was made only and only because Germany is about to give the yes for Eurofighter sale to Turkey.

There's no F-15 offer. Per my understanding reading the article, Ekşi mentions F-15 as another alternative instead of F-35s and the official interviewed basically says "sure, that can be discussed."

 

[Saithan]

Seems to me people don't really get the situation TurAF is in. TurAF is NATO's second largest air force and the third largest air force in the region. Some of its capabilities can only be matched by countries like France and Israel. But, unlike 10 or 20 years ago Turkey now ensures this numerical superiority with relatively outdated aircraft in the form of some 230 legacy F-16s, an important part of which are not used for combat duties. As far as i can remember, TurAF currently have 8(7 if you discount 113) combat squadrons made up of F-16s. That's it. It has one squadron specializing in SEAD duties, and two squadrons specializing in strike roles with more than usual LANTIRN share. This is our fighter aircraft inventory. TurAF was the first non-US NATO country to field a LANTIRN squadron in 90s that allowed to strike at night with precision in Yugoslavia. It was one of the first users of the Sniper pod, and the DB-110.

This technological edge TurAF had over its neighbours and adversaries is now lost in 2024. Now almost every neighbour that's worth talking about field more technologically advanced aircraft than TurAF, and in greater numbers than in the past. There is also the issue of training pilots and keeping up with the doctrinal and operational changes of the neighbouring air forces. While Kızılelma and Anka-3 are hopefully set to be great additions as part of OKU, they are not fighter jets, they can't replace the roles we give to our fighter jets. While it is good that we have hundreds of drones that can strike a moving vehicle outside of our borders, whenever a real target shows up, it's not the TB2 or Anka that is sent but an F-16 with 4 big PGMs under its wings. Israeli strikes in Lebanon and Yemen in the last 10 days I believe have showed everyone again that a fighter bomber is irreplaceable and gives the most capability for money spent.

Neither Özgür-II nor Kaan is coming soon enough and both require American acceptance to develop, produce and field and Kaan will not be delivered in meaningful numbers soon. There's issues to be talked about stopgap solutions, mainly about political back and forths and delivery times, but TurAF needs a new generation aircraft that is ready to be fielded without development as the world plunges to chaos. This is not a new topic, I wrote about a "B plan for the air force in case of issues and delays" in 2019. 5 years has passed, with no solution reached. Only thing that stands is that our aircraft are old and the replacements we are working on are still in early stages of development project scale wise.


There's no F-15 offer. Per my understanding reading the article, Ekşi mentions F-15 as another alternative instead of F-35s and the official interviewed basically says "sure, that can be discussed."

Good reminder of where we are.

But I'd like to add that as long as our allies get what they want from our "alliance" of sorts, I don't see any inclination that they are willing to fulfill their part of the deal.

As I see it they are not interested in Türkiye being able to do airmissions, so they will not give us any new jet.

We can somewhat do stuff with UAV/UCAV etc. and that is bare minimum what they will allow us to do. otherwise Canada would stop exporting engines to us. or other western engines. (would be a blessing if they stopped exporting engines to our UAV/UCAV).

We provide them with intel from Kürecik radar station, we stopped the refugees from invading EU, and there are likely a whole lot of other stuff worth mentioning, but if all of this is under the threat of sanctioning us further, I think it's important that we secure our country internally first before we face the whole shit they can throw at us.

I really think shutting down the Kürecik would be the right move, and have the intel datalink setup transfered to Incirlik.

It doesn't help that we get out of one noose, just to stick our head into another noose.

EDIT: btw would Koral be able to scramble Kürecik ? or enough Korals ?

 

[Zoth]

Neither Özgür-II nor Kaan is coming soon enough and both require American acceptance to develop, produce and field and Kaan will not be delivered in meaningful numbers soon. There's issues to be talked about stopgap solutions, mainly about political back and forths and delivery times, but TurAF needs a new generation aircraft that is ready to be fielded without development as the world plunges to chaos. This is not a new topic, I wrote about a "B plan for the air force in case of issues and delays" in 2019. 5 years has passed, with no solution reached. Only thing that stands is that our aircraft are old and the replacements we are working on are still in early stages of development project scale wise.

While i totally agree with your post, there is even also a bigger issue, even if today, we sign a deal with either USA or EU for F16/F15 or Eurofighter, those jets will start arriving the earliest in 2028, which dosn't solve the aging f16s problem.
The real question is, if Kaan is really planned to enter service around 2028, why do we want Eurofighters that will start arriving at the same time? I guess due to possibility of Kaan being delayed to 2030s?

This is all happening because the plan was to replace f4s with F35s then slowly replace F16s with Hurjet/Kaan, but thanks to our catastrophic foreign policy, we got kicked out of F35 program and end up losing both the revenue of F35 production and F35s at the same time.

 

[somegoodusername]

While i totally agree with your post, there is even also a bigger issue, even if today, we sign a deal with either USA or EU for F16/F15 or Eurofighter, those jets will start arriving the earliest in 2028, which dosn't solve the aging f16s problem.
The real question is, if Kaan is really planned to enter service around 2028, why do we want Eurofighters that will start arriving at the same time? I guess due to possibility of Kaan being delayed to 2030s?

This is all happening because the plan was to replace f4s with F35s then slowly replace F16s with Hurjet/Kaan, but thanks to our catastrophic foreign policy, we got kicked out of F35 program and end up losing both the revenue of F35 production and F35s at the same time.

Turkish Air Force is currently at its most technologically behind position in terms of aircraft inventory, in the history of our republic, after jet age.
We won't have a 5th-generation plane until 2033-34 at the earliest, which is 15 years behind the F-35's intended service entry date at 2019.
Pray that Turkey's borders remain the same until this problem is resolved. The last time we were this technologically behind, we lost a lot.

One reason the Ottoman Empire joined World War I was that Greece had achieved a qualitative advantage in the Aegean Sea with the cruiser Averof, which they bought in 1909. Ottoman admirals reported that they couldn't sail in the Aegean because they had no ship to counter the Greek Averof. The Ottoman government ordered two ships from the UK to address this problem, but the UK seized the ships to increase the dreadnought gap between themselves and the German Empire. With the Aegean turning into a Greek lake, when Germany offered two ships to resolve the qualitative disadvantage, the Ottomans decided to join the war on Germany's side.

Now, hundred years later, Greeks are getting F-35's and we have nothing to put against it. "Türkiye Yüzyılı". More likely to be "Century of Humiliation" for Turkey.

 

[Zoth]

Pray that Turkey's borders remain the same until this problem is resolved. The last time we were this technologically behind, we lost a lot

Although i agree that the Airforce of Turkey is at it's lowest due to some stupid decisions, i don't think Turkey has any real threat for it's borders. The only issue i see where we might end up accepting is Greece's 12nm claims in Aegean if they achieve very strong air dominance over us(which they will not), the situation is dire, but we still have the time to make the right maneuvers.

 

[Saithan]

There is no recovery for that might as well secure 90+ engine for hürjet and see how many we get delivered before embargoed.

Drowning EU in refugges could have but big problems there but someone chose to drown us in these problems

 

[Nutuk]

We can quickly make up when we receive our drones: Akinci, ANKA3, ANKA4, Kizilelma

With our drone force we have a strike power that our country has never witnessed (peak power in strike).

We have a weapons arsenal that we never ever had before

We will have an air defense network as never ever before

We have 19 commando brigades, 16 mechanised brigade which is an unprecedented fighting force

We have ballistic missiles like never before



I would not even bother about not getting F35's (which will be even severely restricted and open to US interference). We should put all efforts into Hurjet and Kaan, foreign aircraft will only restrict us

 

[TR_123456]

Although i agree that the Airforce of Turkey is at it's lowest due to some stupid decisions, i don't think Turkey has any real threat for it's borders. The only issue i see where we might end up accepting is Greece's 12nm claims in Aegean if they achieve very strong air dominance over us(which they will not), the situation is dire, but we still have the time to make the right maneuvers.

That will never happen,Greece is to close(territory) to have air dominance.
What airdefence does Greece have and what kind of missiles do we have?
Dont forget ''561 km''.