TR Foreign Policy & Geopolitics

[Nilgiri]

Prosperity is the strongest revenge. You're deluding yourself if you think you'd be ok with living under North Korean conditions, rather than having a smart public perceptions campaign, to both get what you want and not give ammo to your enemies to act without discretion. All these defense industry acheivements you're proud of are the result of integration into the international system of education and industry. Go to Iran and look at what condition their industrial base is.

Not sure why you keep referring to the North Korean type extreme context (and other similar regimes) for Turkish application.

Turkiye is fundamentally different country. It is not some totalitarian regime to begin with some immense moral issue saddling it (be North Korean gulags, South African apartheid or Iranian theocracy or a weak/weakening economy that saddles still others)....

....nor has it shunned industry, technology and political systems and institutions that have proven their worth.

You brought up Israel, how exactly is Israel "loss of face" (by its nuclear deterrent) made any hit on their economy? Most of their economic growth came after their nuclear development.... i.e the best days are always "yet to come" if you structure things right....which any country can do if it prioritizes and manages things well enough.

If Turkiye collectively sees the need to take a hit on expedient temporal "globalised economic" benefits (which are debatable in of themselves).... that come with proximity or even membership within EU/NATO et al (i.e western framework).... in return for full strategic autonomy, it will.

Simply the weight on the balance shifts in that favour, and the decisions need to be made regarding that right?

It is significant enough country to do so....dont you think?

Consider the nuclear paths of large enough countries like China and India w.r.t cold war era....certainly Turkiye has enough gumption and benefit to take its own path if current path (w.r.t relations with West) is not to its interests?....and build the economic benefits as 2nd priority of relations after that (that China and India did).

i.e You don't need blindly believe you must come to others....once you figured out enough.... let others come to you to make security and economic relations the proper tiered way commensurate to your needs, ability and interests first.

Turkish republic has changed a lot since its founding in early 20th century (when it was far weaker and vulnerable)...it has enough confident strength now surely to see what is what clearly regarding itself and others?

You have to consider these things quickly in fact, there is large pressing talk and decision making this year itself (combined with Turkish election season too).... as there is significant talk about booting Turkiye out of NATO (by making a new NATO without it and stripping relevance of the old one) if that election is not perceived as favourable result to western politics (exacerbated lately by RUS-UKR war and quick NATO expansion).

I already chatted about these things elsewhere with @Xenon54 just some days back....

Maybe others like @Bogeyman @TR_123456 @Cabatli_TR @Test7 @Yasar @Anmdt and others can share what they think on this issue.

 

[Rooxbar]

a) Not sure why you keep referring to the North Korean type extreme context (and other similar regimes) for Turkish application.

Turkiye is fundamentally different country. It is not some totalitarian regime to begin with some immense moral issue saddling it (be north korean gulags, south african apartheid or iranian theocracy or a weak/weakening economy that saddles still others)....

....nor has it shunned industry, technology and political systems and institutions that have proven their worth.

b)You brought up Israel, how exactly is Israel "loss of face" (by its nuclear deterrent) made any hit on their economy? Most of their economic growth came after their nuclear development.... i.e the best days are always "yet to come" if you structure things right....which any country can do if it prioritizes and manages things well enough.

c) If Turkiye collectively sees the need to take a hit on expedient temporal "globalised economic" benefits (which are debatable in of themselves).... that come with proximity or even membership within EU/NATO et al (i.e western framework).... in return for full strategic autonomy, it will.

Simply the weight on the balance shifts in that favour, and the decisions need to be made regarding that right?

It is significant enough country to do so....dont you think?

d) Consider the nuclear paths of large enough countries like China and India w.r.t cold war era....certainly Turkiye has enough gumption and benefit to take its own path if current path (w.r.t relations with West) is not to its interests?....and build the economic benefits as 2nd priority of relations after that (that China and India did).

e) i.e You don't need blindly believe you must come to others....once you figured out enough.... let others come to you to make security and economic relations the proper tiered way commensurate to your needs, ability and interests first.

f) Turkish republic has changed a lot since its founding in early 20th century (when it was far weaker and vulnerable)...it has enough confident strength now surely to see what is what clearly regarding itself and others?

g) You have to consider these things quickly in fact, there is large pressing talk and decision making this year itself (combined with Turkish election season too).... as there is significant talk about booting Turkiye out of NATO (by making a new NATO without it and stripping relevance of the old one) if that election is not perceived as favourable result to western politics (exacerbated lately by RUS-UKR war and quick NATO expansion).

I already chatted about these things elsewhere with @Xenon54 just some days back....

Maybe others like @Bogeyman @TR_123456 @Cabatli_TR @Test7 @Yasar @Anmdt and others can share what they think on this issue.

a) I didn't start that comparison, I just replied to a comment saying that they'd rather live under North Korean conditions than accept partitioning of the country (which I would like to think would be my choice as well). The reification from being under sanctions for developing nuclear weapons to a comparison of two nations in all aspects, is fallacious.

b) I in no way implied Israel's loss of face has been due to its nuclear program, as I mentioned it has happened in the last decade only, if you read my post more carefully. The loss of face has been due to broader capacity by Palestinians to broadcast their grievances, and broader capacity in the world of hearing these grievances, both made possible by availability of professional cameras and news media in the hands of normal people in the form of cellphones and social media. There are many opinion polls in western countries showing waning support for Israel.

c) I don't have a problem with this and Turkey trying to develop nukes. I think right now is not the time, and the measures to mitigate the hit haven't been made, i.e. diversifying export destinations.

d) comparing China and India's path to Turkey is a moot point imo. China achieved the miracle through very favorable conditions with west. I also don't remember India giving itself to this amount of demonization globally.

e) again timing issue. I think if Turkey used the threat of Iran in concordance with regional players to move in that direction, that would be more expedient; esp. if it's done after Iran explicitly threatens nuke development.

f) Turkish republic yes, AKP no. AKP represents the most conservative, nonadaptive elements of Turkish society. I'd rather more diplomatically savy, but patriotic parties do it.

g) I mean, that would work if the government in face of hostile action suddenly came out and announced access to nukes, but it's not that simple in terms of development schedule right?

My whole argument is, the hostile attitude towards Turkey by the certain elements of the western hegemony, orchestrated by Pentagon and U.S. state department, need not be exacerbated by a loss of face due to undemocratic attitude and immature diplomatic language. This view by many of my compatriots that the attitude of western public is inherent and not contingent is not borne out of historical record (the waning perceptions in parallel to rising Islamism and undemocratic measures; I don't argue that changing perceptions has been exclusively due to this btw, western media propaganda in line with their heinous plans like the 2016 coup is the main cause, since this is the same Erdogan that they glazed up right until 2011-2012 when they realized he's no longer swearing fealty to their inside agents in the Gulen movement).

Interesting talk nontheless.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Not sure why you keep referring to the North Korean type extreme context (and other similar regimes) for Turkish application.

Turkiye is fundamentally different country. It is not some totalitarian regime to begin with some immense moral issue saddling it (be North Korean gulags, South African apartheid or Iranian theocracy or a weak/weakening economy that saddles still others)....

....nor has it shunned industry, technology and political systems and institutions that have proven their worth.

You brought up Israel, how exactly is Israel "loss of face" (by its nuclear deterrent) made any hit on their economy? Most of their economic growth came after their nuclear development.... i.e the best days are always "yet to come" if you structure things right....which any country can do if it prioritizes and manages things well enough.

If Turkiye collectively sees the need to take a hit on expedient temporal "globalised economic" benefits (which are debatable in of themselves).... that come with proximity or even membership within EU/NATO et al (i.e western framework).... in return for full strategic autonomy, it will.

Simply the weight on the balance shifts in that favour, and the decisions need to be made regarding that right?

It is significant enough country to do so....dont you think?

Consider the nuclear paths of large enough countries like China and India w.r.t cold war era....certainly Turkiye has enough gumption and benefit to take its own path if current path (w.r.t relations with West) is not to its interests?....and build the economic benefits as 2nd priority of relations after that (that China and India did).

i.e You don't need blindly believe you must come to others....once you figured out enough.... let others come to you to make security and economic relations the proper tiered way commensurate to your needs, ability and interests first.

Turkish republic has changed a lot since its founding in early 20th century (when it was far weaker and vulnerable)...it has enough confident strength now surely to see what is what clearly regarding itself and others?

You have to consider these things quickly in fact, there is large pressing talk and decision making this year itself (combined with Turkish election season too).... as there is significant talk about booting Turkiye out of NATO (by making a new NATO without it and stripping relevance of the old one) if that election is not perceived as favourable result to western politics (exacerbated lately by RUS-UKR war and quick NATO expansion).

I already chatted about these things elsewhere with @Xenon54 just some days back....

Maybe others like @Bogeyman @TR_123456 @Cabatli_TR @Test7 @Yasar @Anmdt and others can share what they think on this issue.

It is nice to read a foreign perspective of these events and geopolitical developments concerning Turkey.

Regarding nuclear deterrent, I personally don’t agree that only a few “elite” nations should have the access to nuclear weapons. It should really be banned altogether. If not, then it is not correct that so called “elite” countries deciding about who should have it or who shouldn’t.
In our geography if Israel has it then we should have it too.
If Ukraine had it Russia would not have dared to invade.

Regarding Turkey, best route to take was defined by our great leader and the founder of the republic in his famous ”Speech To The Youth” and in his reforms that came with his decrees. Since the 50s the administrations that came in to power, have deviated from the path that was set out for us due to the political and personal ambitions of the rulers, using religion as a means.
Although literacy rate is high in Turkey (96%+ for males and 94%+ for females), level of proficiency, quality and quantity of educated people, if compared to world’s top industrialised countries, is very low. Never mind that, it is a good deal lower than OECD averages.

https://www.oecd.org/turkiye/Skills-Matter-Turkey.pdf

Educational reforms will have to be implemented in a countrywide manner to bring our population in line with the first tier countries of the world.
Political aspirations have to be put in the back burners and national interests and the interest of the population‘s welfare, wealth and living standards will have to come forward to become the priority.

 

[Heartbang]

the attitude of western public is inherent and not contingent is not borne out of historical record (the waning perceptions in parallel to rising Islamism and undemocratic measures; I don't argue that changing perceptions has been exclusively due to this btw

You're wrong, because you're not looking far behind.
I'd tell you about many examples of anti-Turkish sentiments of the common European, but frankly I'd use my time on more fruitful endeavors.
However, I'll attach this right here, along with its description:

"The dying, half-naked 'Turk' slips down along with his weapons. The body of the vanquished serves as a stepping stone for the transfigured Christian to ascending toward heaven. The baroque apotheosis (1738) above the Capistrano pulpit on the north side of St Stephen's Cathedral in Vienna shows John of Capistrano, canonized in 1690, as the vanquisher of the 'Turks'. Moreover, until after 1945 the inscription "1683 -schau Mahomet, du Hunt" (1683 -Look Muhammad, You Dog) hung resplendent above the main entrance of the cathedral. It was only removed by order of Cardinal Franz König.

 

[Ryder]

You're wrong, because you're not looking far behind.
I'd tell you about many examples of anti-Turkish sentiments of the common European, but frankly I'd use my time on more fruitful endeavors.
However, I'll attach this right here, along with its description:

Statues of beheaded Turks and Moors also coat of arms.

Somehow Brown people are Isis while white people will say we are proud of it.

Clown World.

Then again look at the paintings and arts of how they depicted the Turks and the Moors they depicted them all as Dark people because they represented darkness while Europeans represented Light forces hence the white skin that was so shiny.

This was also recycled with Tolkien and Narnia books.

If you ever watched Lord of the Rings all the enemies were dark.

 

[Rooxbar]

Well one can posit a natural interval of favorability between two nations, which will be in flux between its maxima and minima. The comparison between eras before the positive feedback loop of nationalistic hatred overtakes nations is a sombre reminder of alternative universes. Even such polarized populations as Palestinians and Israelis show this variability, and the variability is quite sizable if you compare the year 2000 to 2022. Overzealous attitudes on both sides reinforce unfavorable perspectives. I'd venture a guess and say your average European is most certainly quite apolitical and wouldn't care much about the statue from 18th century and its medievally antagonistic view of the "Turk" when waxing nostalgic about the time they were strolling though the streets of Istanbul. Aren't there people who still adhere to ignorant racist views towards Turks and Turkey? sure. Are they on the rise as nationalism grows internationally due to the woes of late stage capitalism? Yes. Do they constitute majority? If AKP tries hard enough, yes.

 

[No Name]

It is nice to read a foreign perspective of these events and geopolitical developments concerning Turkey.

Regarding nuclear deterrent, I personally don’t agree that only a few “elite” nations should have the access to nuclear weapons. It should really be banned altogether. If not, then it is not correct that so called “elite” countries deciding about who should have it or who shouldn’t.
In our geography if Israel has it then we should have it too.
If Ukraine had it Russia would not have dared to invade.

Regarding Turkey, best route to take was defined by our great leader and the founder of the republic in his famous ”Speech To The Youth” and in his reforms that came with his decrees. Since the 50s the administrations that came in to power, have deviated from the path that was set out for us due to the political and personal ambitions of the rulers, using religion as a means.
Although literacy rate is high in Turkey (96%+ for males and 94%+ for females), level of proficiency, quality and quantity of educated people, if compared to world’s top industrialised countries, is very low. Never mind that, it is a good deal lower than OECD averages.

https://www.oecd.org/turkiye/Skills-Matter-Turkey.pdf

Educational reforms will have to be implemented in a countrywide manner to bring our population in line with the first tier countries of the world.
Political aspirations have to be put in the back burners and national interests and the interest of the population‘s welfare, wealth and living standards will have to come forward to become the priority.

The quality and quantity of education are so bad in Turkey because everything is based on tests and memorization, and from what I hear, classes are too large. If turkey wants to improve its education system, it needs to switch to a problem-solving education system and get rid of the tests. The size of the classes needs to be smaller as an average of 30 students per class is 10 too many. The teachers can not give enough attention to the students and have little time to improve themselves.

 

[Nilgiri]

a) I didn't start that comparison, I just replied to a comment saying that they'd rather live under North Korean conditions than accept partitioning of the country (which I would like to think would be my choice as well). The reification from being under sanctions for developing nuclear weapons to a comparison of two nations in all aspects, is fallacious.

b) I in no way implied Israel's loss of face has been due to its nuclear program, as I mentioned it has happened in the last decade only, if you read my post more carefully. The loss of face has been due to broader capacity by Palestinians to broadcast their grievances, and broader capacity in the world of hearing these grievances, both made possible by availability of professional cameras and news media in the hands of normal people in the form of cellphones and social media. There are many opinion polls in western countries showing waning support for Israel.

Fair enough. I didn't read all the thread in detail. I was going to first let more members weigh in before I reply again..... but I will be short on time for a while so I might as well give my overall thoughts now.

c) I don't have a problem with this and Turkey trying to develop nukes. I think right now is not the time, and the measures to mitigate the hit haven't been made, i.e. diversifying export destinations.

Well it's why I said collectively. Turkiye will come to a consensus on this...and I think fairly quickly this decade.

I don't think the current situation (having NATO/incirlik hang over like Damocles while various support and toleration is given to groups like PKK et al by other NATO members) will be allowed to persist by Turkiye.

At least that is the impression I get from talking to fairly diverse range of Turks (politically).

There are common threads they all agree upon w.r.t hypocrisy Turkish state confronts increasingly w.r.t Western establishment....and simply put strategic autonomy wont be achieved without a nuclear deterrent to back it up in this world.

But we shall see.

d) comparing China and India's path to Turkey is a moot point imo. China achieved the miracle through very favorable conditions with west. I also don't remember India giving itself to this amount of demonization globally.

It is long story in the end. There is no real miracle here once the genie was let out of bottle and even crossed the iron curtain divide (even before the iron curtain started). It was just a matter of costs and capital.

I don't think favourable conditions with the West were ever achieved by PRC in the cold war, especially while it was developing its nuclear program (with Soviet assistance) in the early part of cold war (the Mao era).

MacArthur even pressed Truman to go for the nuking of Chinese cities to relieve pressure on the Korean war front....and it was given serious consideration before it was overruled (given the likely Soviet retaliation since PRC entered that war with USSR backing in first place).

This along with the later sino-soviet split itself influenced a huge deal in the Chinese calculus w.r.t nuclear weapons development....which in turn pushed India into it as well.

Demonization, negative coercion, threats, prejudiced misunderstanding and all the rest of it....(w.r.t West and the East biggest countries, especially given backdrop of colonisation era to begin with) is too long to get into and it really depends on how formation of one's perspective was even done on it.

e) again timing issue. I think if Turkey used the threat of Iran in concordance with regional players to move in that direction, that would be more expedient; esp. if it's done after Iran explicitly threatens nuke development.

The thing is capability takes time to gestate for breakout. One would have to organise everything to have it in hand in opportune/pressing time. Turkiye is behind here and needs to start moving if it is to have the option say 2030 onwards.

Consider this thread and how I reference Korea and Japan for example:

Turkey's Nuclear Weapons Development Projects

According to the declassified NSA archives, the Turkish Armed Forces had a nuclear weapon development project in 1966. A very interesting document from the declassified NSA archive. On September 23, 1966, a Tübitak personnel identified as a reliable source requests an appointment from the US...

defencehub.live

(and my later replies in that thread too)

f) Turkish republic yes, AKP no. AKP represents the most conservative, nonadaptive elements of Turkish society. I'd rather more diplomatically savy, but patriotic parties do it.

Politics is just the outermost expression of the state. It rarely cleaves all the way to the innermost working of the state's institutions concerned with the longest timeframe stuff related to security.

There surely is deep state consensus already I would imagine within TR on this matter. We may only see what materialisation that leads to later as is the case with such things in general.

g) I mean, that would work if the government in face of hostile action suddenly came out and announced access to nukes, but it's not that simple in terms of development schedule right?

I'm talking more about action/policy behind the scenes compared to what is given on the outside. TR (deep state) hopefully has taken stock of things, balanced the pro and cons and made some decisions already for the relevant timeframes.

It is better to have something you do not need....than the other way around. This century is going to be very different one to the previous one..... Turkiye has outgrown the (cold war era) clothes of last one for sure....so it must be ready as it can be for the brave new world.

My whole argument is, the hostile attitude towards Turkey by the certain elements of the western hegemony, orchestrated by Pentagon and U.S. state department, need not be exacerbated by a loss of face due to undemocratic attitude and immature diplomatic language. This view by many of my compatriots that the attitude of western public is inherent and not contingent is not borne out of historical record (the waning perceptions in parallel to rising Islamism and undemocratic measures; I don't argue that changing perceptions has been exclusively due to this btw, western media propaganda in line with their heinous plans like the 2016 coup is the main cause, since this is the same Erdogan that they glazed up right until 2011-2012 when they realized he's no longer swearing fealty to their inside agents in the Gulen movement).

Interesting talk nontheless.

I agree it need not be exacerbated. There should be quiet silent taking stock of things and proper bedrock set in place for optimal strategic autonomy TR desires in this new chapter in progress. There is a multi polar world evolving and TR can be a significant pole itself if it desires and works for it.

 

[Bogeyman]

Person collecting tribute for terrorist organization PKK/YPG in Sweden has been arrested


According to the news of Swedish radio SR, a person in his 40s was detained on suspicion of committing crimes of financing terrorism, attempted extortion and armed attack.
The Stockholm District Court arrested the suspect on charges of raising money for the terrorist organization PKK/YPG and making gun threats.

Prosecutor Hans Ihrman announced that the suspect attempted to blackmail, as well as raising money for the terrorist organization PKK/YPG. He said that the defendant thus provided financing for terrorism.

İsveç'te terör örgütü PKK/YPG için haraç toplayan kişi tutuklandı

İsveç radyosu SR'nin haberine göre, 40 yaşlarında bir kişi, teröre finansman sağlamak, gasp teşebbüsü ve silahlı saldırı suçları işlediği şüphesiyle gözaltına alındı. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

 

[Heartbang]

I'd venture a guess and say your average European is most certainly quite apolitical and wouldn't care much about the statue from 18th century and its medievally antagonistic view of the "Turk" when waxing nostalgic about the time they were strolling though the streets of Istanbul.

Sure, keep guessing

 

[Kedikesenfare]

Statues of beheaded Turks and Moors also coat of arms.

Somehow Brown people are Isis while white people will say we are proud of it.

Clown World.

Then again look at the paintings and arts of how they depicted the Turks and the Moors they depicted them all as Dark people because they represented darkness while Europeans represented Light forces hence the white skin that was so shiny.

This was also recycled with Tolkien and Narnia books.

If you ever watched Lord of the Rings all the enemies were dark.

Liever Turks dan Paaps - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

History is colorful. I bet you I can find more anti-French statues and relics in Germany than anti-Turkish.

 

[Ryder]

Liever Turks dan Paaps - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

History is colorful. I bet you I can find more anti-French statues and relics in Germany than anti-Turkish.

That was political at the time still does not change anything.

Eventhough history is not black and white.

Turks always represented dark forces of the east. The same was said about the Arabs, Persians, Mongols and the Huns. Magyars were also represented like this too the ancestors of modern day Hungarians.

 

[Kedikesenfare]

That was political at the time still does not change anything.

Eventhough history is not black and white.

Turks always represented dark forces of the east. The same was said about the Arabs, Persians, Mongols and the Huns. Magyars were also represented like this too the ancestors of modern day Hungarians.

Want to read about the German-Turkish relationship from a Greek perspective?

From Bismarck to Merkel | eKathimerini.com

“Turks and Germans loved each other for a long time,” Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said during a visit to Berlin in 2018. He was citing the historic words of Germany’s first chancellor, Otto von Bismarck, which still seem to determine Berlin’s policy on Ankara.

www.ekathimerini.com

We should know our history and be aware that the world is neither black nor white.

 

[Ryder]

Well one can posit a natural interval of favorability between two nations, which will be in flux between its maxima and minima. The comparison between eras before the positive feedback loop of nationalistic hatred overtakes nations is a sombre reminder of alternative universes. Even such polarized populations as Palestinians and Israelis show this variability, and the variability is quite sizable if you compare the year 2000 to 2022. Overzealous attitudes on both sides reinforce unfavorable perspectives. I'd venture a guess and say your average European is most certainly quite apolitical and wouldn't care much about the statue from 18th century and its medievally antagonistic view of the "Turk" when waxing nostalgic about the time they were strolling though the streets of Istanbul. Aren't there people who still adhere to ignorant racist views towards Turks and Turkey? sure. Are they on the rise as nationalism grows internationally due to the woes of late stage capitalism? Yes. Do they constitute majority? If AKP tries hard enough, yes.

I know Turks take their nationalism and patriotism too seriously.

Honestly who can blame them when they came close to being extinguished as a nation after ww1 and fought for their independance on its last legs.

By the way Westerners may think they admire Ataturk but deep down they hate the man because could not destroy the Turks.

Now they have a Turkiye that is not just strategic but also allied in a toxic relationship because lets put all our differences aside and take on communism.

Communism dead they are back to their old tricks.

Turkiye it seems to just unite everybody against them just as they grow.

We all blame akp for their fck ups but does not change the fact that Americans, Europeans, Russians, Iranians and Israelis along with the Chinese dont want a strong Turkiye.

Chinese already know that the Turks will be competitors in Central Asia. Also they are our old ememies.

Armenians, Kurds and Greeks are just proxies we have nothing to fear from them as we curb stomped them so many times.

If Turkiye is going to survive it has to forge its own destiny. To do this it needs nukes.

Turkiye's foreign policy should not rest on the West or the East. But should rest with whats best for Turkiye itself.

Turkiye needs to stop thinking about Europe's security start thinking of its own security.

Enough with the uncle toms.

 

[Anastasius]

Sure, keep guessing

Toe be fair The Sun isn't exactly a shining example of journalism and there were publications in the British press detailing horrors inflicted upon Turkish Cypriots as well. Plus it's not like Turks and other non-European nations don't have unflattering depictions of Europeans - why do you think the evil eye is traditionally blue?

 

[Zafer]

Public opinion is quite important in the eyes of western institutions; they do seem to have an almost omnipotent capacity to form it, but it too has its limitations. Whatever coordinated campaign you launch through your "free" "independent" media, and the "independent" analysts who write for your journals and speak in your t.v. channels, you cannot change public opinion about say, "Norway", for example. AKP has given a lot of very prime delicious cuts of material for them to use as agitprop against Türkiye. Most of this has been the most useless hogwash imaginable, like the Hagia Sophia incident, for instance. Personally, it's very insulting to me that western countries, who couldn't give less shit about destruction of multiple mosques in Greece and the Balkans, somehow see themselves morally fit to lecture us about what we do with our own monuments (it's not like we're destroying it); but everything has its time and place. You have to play this strategic game of opinion-building seriously. U.S. does a lot of horrible shit, but they always try to keep a sanitary image of themselves at least for the the western public. Western public opinion matters. They own the discourse. They're the hegemon. A big part of the plan is to have the public along for the ride through brainwashing. You have to fight that, not make it easier for them! You have to try your darnedest to project a democratic wholesome image for your average myopic westoid liberal, who has no depth of analysis, and only cares about aesthetics. Israel does this. They go to such lengths to achieve this, it's hilarious. A nuke, at this point, therefore, is the last thing we need.

You value western opinion too much.
Even the western people know that the whole western media is governed by the same minds and do not give a damn.

 

[Ryder]

Want to read about the German-Turkish relationship from a Greek perspective?

From Bismarck to Merkel | eKathimerini.com

“Turks and Germans loved each other for a long time,” Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said during a visit to Berlin in 2018. He was citing the historic words of Germany’s first chancellor, Otto von Bismarck, which still seem to determine Berlin’s policy on Ankara.

www.ekathimerini.com

We should know our history and be aware that the world is neither black nor white.

Bismark allowed the British and the Austrians to take both Cyprus and Bosnia.

He may have reversed Russian gains while at the same time he punished the Ottomans with further humilations.

Ottomans already lost too much in turn still had to give up both Cyprus and Bosnia without a single shot.

Bismarks policies was all about keeping the status quo.

 

[Heartbang]

You value western opinion too much.
Even the western people know that the whole western media is governed by the same minds and do not give a damn.

Exactly, thank you.

 

[Heartbang]

I know Turks take their nationalism and patriotism tol seriously.

Honestly who can blame them when they came close to being extinguished as a nation after ww1 and fought for their independance on its last legs.

By the way Westerners may think they admire Ataturk but deep down they hate the man because could not destroy the Turks.

Now they have a Turkiye that is not just strategic but also allied in a toxic relationship because lets put all our differences aside and take on communism.

Communism dead they are back to their old tricks.

Turkiye it seems to just unite everybody against them just as they grow.

We all blame akp for their fck ups but does not change the fact that Americans, Europeans, Russians, Iranians and Israelis along with the Chinese dont want a strong Turkiye.

Chinese already know that the Turks will be competitors in Central Asia. Also they are our old ememies.

Armenians, Kurds and Greeks are just proxies we have nothing to fear from them as we curb stomped them so many times.

If Turkiye is going to survive it has to forge its own destiny. To do this it needs nukes.

Turkiye's foreign policy should not rest on the West or the East. But should rest with whats best for Turkiye itself.

Turkiye needs to stop thinking about Europe's security start thinking of its own security.

Enough with the uncle toms.

Well said!

 

[what]

We should know our history and be aware that the world is neither black nor white.

Well said. Way to many everything is black and white people in here. You'd think we are on the verge of being invaded by western countries. Way to many warmongers and not enough sanity sometimes.