a) I didn't start that comparison, I just replied to a comment saying that they'd rather live under North Korean conditions than accept partitioning of the country (which I would like to think would be my choice as well). The reification from being under sanctions for developing nuclear weapons to a comparison of two nations in all aspects, is fallacious.a) Not sure why you keep referring to the North Korean type extreme context (and other similar regimes) for Turkish application.
Turkiye is fundamentally different country. It is not some totalitarian regime to begin with some immense moral issue saddling it (be north korean gulags, south african apartheid or iranian theocracy or a weak/weakening economy that saddles still others)....
....nor has it shunned industry, technology and political systems and institutions that have proven their worth.
b)You brought up Israel, how exactly is Israel "loss of face" (by its nuclear deterrent) made any hit on their economy? Most of their economic growth came after their nuclear development.... i.e the best days are always "yet to come" if you structure things right....which any country can do if it prioritizes and manages things well enough.
c) If Turkiye collectively sees the need to take a hit on expedient temporal "globalised economic" benefits (which are debatable in of themselves).... that come with proximity or even membership within EU/NATO et al (i.e western framework).... in return for full strategic autonomy, it will.
Simply the weight on the balance shifts in that favour, and the decisions need to be made regarding that right?
It is significant enough country to do so....dont you think?
d) Consider the nuclear paths of large enough countries like China and India w.r.t cold war era....certainly Turkiye has enough gumption and benefit to take its own path if current path (w.r.t relations with West) is not to its interests?....and build the economic benefits as 2nd priority of relations after that (that China and India did).
e) i.e You don't need blindly believe you must come to others....once you figured out enough.... let others come to you to make security and economic relations the proper tiered way commensurate to your needs, ability and interests first.
f) Turkish republic has changed a lot since its founding in early 20th century (when it was far weaker and vulnerable)...it has enough confident strength now surely to see what is what clearly regarding itself and others?
g) You have to consider these things quickly in fact, there is large pressing talk and decision making this year itself (combined with Turkish election season too).... as there is significant talk about booting Turkiye out of NATO (by making a new NATO without it and stripping relevance of the old one) if that election is not perceived as favourable result to western politics (exacerbated lately by RUS-UKR war and quick NATO expansion).
I already chatted about these things elsewhere with @Xenon54 just some days back....
Maybe others like @Bogeyman @TR_123456 @Cabatli_TR @Test7 @Yasar @Anmdt and others can share what they think on this issue.
b) I in no way implied Israel's loss of face has been due to its nuclear program, as I mentioned it has happened in the last decade only, if you read my post more carefully. The loss of face has been due to broader capacity by Palestinians to broadcast their grievances, and broader capacity in the world of hearing these grievances, both made possible by availability of professional cameras and news media in the hands of normal people in the form of cellphones and social media. There are many opinion polls in western countries showing waning support for Israel.
c) I don't have a problem with this and Turkey trying to develop nukes. I think right now is not the time, and the measures to mitigate the hit haven't been made, i.e. diversifying export destinations.
d) comparing China and India's path to Turkey is a moot point imo. China achieved the miracle through very favorable conditions with west. I also don't remember India giving itself to this amount of demonization globally.
e) again timing issue. I think if Turkey used the threat of Iran in concordance with regional players to move in that direction, that would be more expedient; esp. if it's done after Iran explicitly threatens nuke development.
f) Turkish republic yes, AKP no. AKP represents the most conservative, nonadaptive elements of Turkish society. I'd rather more diplomatically savy, but patriotic parties do it.
g) I mean, that would work if the government in face of hostile action suddenly came out and announced access to nukes, but it's not that simple in terms of development schedule right?
My whole argument is, the hostile attitude towards Turkey by the certain elements of the western hegemony, orchestrated by Pentagon and U.S. state department, need not be exacerbated by a loss of face due to undemocratic attitude and immature diplomatic language. This view by many of my compatriots that the attitude of western public is inherent and not contingent is not borne out of historical record (the waning perceptions in parallel to rising Islamism and undemocratic measures; I don't argue that changing perceptions has been exclusively due to this btw, western media propaganda in line with their heinous plans like the 2016 coup is the main cause, since this is the same Erdogan that they glazed up right until 2011-2012 when they realized he's no longer swearing fealty to their inside agents in the Gulen movement).
Interesting talk nontheless.