TR Foreign Policy & Geopolitics

[YeşilVatan]

You probably never heard when a US general said "We desperately need Turkiye to be on the F35 program". This was a while back.

I'm interested in this. Can I get more details if you are ok with it?

 

[Barry]

not strictly Turkiye-focussed

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1621214948067098626

 

[Zafer]

I'm interested in this. Can I get more details if you are ok with it?

This was a while back, maybe more than a year back. A US general said something like "We desperately need to give the F35 to Turkey" in an article about F35 on an online military magazine. From this statement one can know how useful the F35 was supposed to be to the US both for military and for trade purposes. Then politicians came in and saved us from this trap. You need to search the first part of the statement as a few words might be different in the last part; like give/sell or similar. There was no defencehub at that time.

 

[Xenon54]

This is so obvious to every person who is interested in knowing the truth.

I rather speak with facts than come to conclusions based on observations, you are tying apples and oranges together, yes they are both fruits but still wastly diferent.

 

[Kedikesenfare]

"Türkiye will not approve Sweden’s bid to join NATO as long as it continues to permit those who burn the Quran, President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has said, repeating Ankara’s favorable position for Finland’s application to the alliance."

We, literally, indexed Sweden's application to Quran burning. We're not approving their application not because they support terrorists, not because our armored vehicles are being blown up by Swedish ATGMs used by terrorists, not because they embargo us but because, as a secular state, we despise their handling of burning of "our" holy book.

We truly became the epitome of diplomacy.

Türkiye won’t say ‘yes’ to Sweden for NATO: Erdoğan - Türkiye News

Türkiye will not approve Sweden’s bid to join NATO as long as it continues to permit those who burn the Quran, President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has said, repeating Ankara’s favorable position for Finland’s application to the alliance.

www.hurriyetdailynews.com

Norway police ban Koran burning protest after Turkey summons Oslo envoy

Norwegian police on Thursday banned a planned anti-Islam protest including the burning of a copy of the Koran this week for security reasons, hours after the Turkish foreign ministry summoned Norway's ambassador to complain.

www.reuters.com

 

[Rooxbar]

These consulate closures by several western countries was very obviously expected to draw a hostile reaction from the Turkish government; therefore, in my view, the west, under the strategic leadership of U.S., is adamant in giving all the ammo the AKP needs for domestic propaganda before this election. So one has to ask why do they want AKP? Do they think AKP, instead of a more western-friendly secularist party, will be the perfect scapegoat for their public when they inevitably drive Turkey away from the west into a Eurasian alliance in the matters of Eastern Mediterranean and Aegean maritime delimitation?

Admittedly they will have a much easier job of it, convincing their electorate of sanctioning or even doing military action against Erdogan, against whom they have conducted a perfect campaign of demonization, than your run-of-the-mill liberal who doesn't have the long-inculcated persona of a Russia-sympathizer dictator in the hearts and minds of a western general public and their parochial intelligentsia. Subsequently the western public would be more inclined to support action against Erdogan's government, than say Imamoglu's government; and in the latter case, if they were to keep going on with the plan, their media and think-tanks would have a harder time to somehow paint the expected democratization processes and conciliatory approach towards the west by the more liberal government as anti-west and sympathetic to Russia or China.

I also have to add that the U.S. military industrial complex and their media links, think tanks and the politicians on their payroll (overwhelming majority of GOP, and a sizable majority of Dems), have been looking for their next Saddam for a long time, to test their toys and get their billion dollar government contracts, and the winning candidate (through a cursory scan of their published media, and political affiliates) has been Erdogan. Luckily, Ukraine has thrown a lifeline for us in that regard, but their attitudes throughout the Ukraine-Russia conflict has shown that they are not going to give up on that dream, and they are in preparation for it. So Erdogan and his party are playing a very dangerous game, fanning the flames and making their plans that much easier, just to galvanize their anti-west base. They must have trodden a tight rope, and they haven't been doing that.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

These consulate closures by several western countries was very obviously expected to draw a hostile reaction from the Turkish government; therefore, in my view, the west, under the strategic leadership of U.S., is adamant in giving all the ammo the AKP needs for domestic propaganda before this election. So one has to ask why do they want AKP? Do they think AKP, instead of a more western-friendly secularist party, will be the perfect scapegoat for their public when they inevitably drive Turkey away from the west into a Eurasian alliance in the matters of Eastern Mediterranean and Aegean maritime delimitation?

Admittedly they will have a much easier job of it, convincing their electorate of sanctioning or even doing military action against Erdogan, against whom they have conducted a perfect campaign of demonization, than your run-of-the-mill liberal who doesn't have the long-inculcated persona of a Russia-sympathizer dictator in the hearts and minds of a western general public and their parochial intelligentsia. Subsequently the western public would be more inclined to support action against Erdogan's government, than say Imamoglu's government; and in the latter case, if they were to keep going on with the plan, their media and think-tanks would have a harder time to somehow paint the expected democratization processes and conciliatory approach towards the west by the more liberal government as anti-west and sympathetic to Russia or China.

I also have to add that the U.S. military industrial complex and their media links, think tanks and the politicians on their payroll (overwhelming majority of GOP, and a sizable majority of Dems), have been looking for their next Saddam for a long time, to test their toys and get their billion dollar government contracts, and the winning candidate (through a cursory scan of their published media, and political affiliates) has been Erdogan. Luckily, Ukraine has thrown a lifeline for us in that regard, but their attitudes throughout the Ukraine-Russia conflict has shown that they are not going to give up on that dream, and they are in preparation for it. So Erdogan and his party are playing a very dangerous game, fanning the flames and making their plans that much easier, just to galvanize their anti-west base. They must have trodden a tight rope, and they haven't been doing that.

Mind boggling that Türkiye with a million different enemies still has no Nukes. While some fuckers with 1-2 enemies have them. Fucking useless government.

 

[Rooxbar]

Mind boggling that Türkiye with a million different enemies still has no Nukes. While some fuckers with 1-2 enemies have them. Fucking useless government.

Public opinion is quite important in the eyes of western institutions; they do seem to have an almost omnipotent capacity to form it, but it too has its limitations. Whatever coordinated campaign you launch through your "free" "independent" media, and the "independent" analysts who write for your journals and speak in your t.v. channels, you cannot change public opinion about say, "Norway", for example. AKP has given a lot of very prime delicious cuts of material for them to use as agitprop against Türkiye. Most of this has been the most useless hogwash imaginable, like the Hagia Sophia incident, for instance. Personally, it's very insulting to me that western countries, who couldn't give less shit about destruction of multiple mosques in Greece and the Balkans, somehow see themselves morally fit to lecture us about what we do with our own monuments (it's not like we're destroying it); but everything has its time and place. You have to play this strategic game of opinion-building seriously. U.S. does a lot of horrible shit, but they always try to keep a sanitary image of themselves at least for the the western public. Western public opinion matters. They own the discourse. They're the hegemon. A big part of the plan is to have the public along for the ride through brainwashing. You have to fight that, not make it easier for them! You have to try your darnedest to project a democratic wholesome image for your average myopic westoid liberal, who has no depth of analysis, and only cares about aesthetics. Israel does this. They go to such lengths to achieve this, it's hilarious. A nuke, at this point, therefore, is the last thing we need.

 

[Heartbang]

U.S. military industrial complex and their media links, think tanks and the politicians on their payroll (overwhelming majority of GOP, and a sizable majority of Dems), have been looking for their next Saddam for a long time, to test their toys and get their billion dollar government contracts, and the winning candidate (through a cursory scan of their published media, and political affiliates) has been Erdogan.

Their next Saddam is Communist China. Compared to CCP, Erdogan is a mere nuisance.
Someone who does not "hold the line" in this new "democracies vs autocracies" cold war of ours and constantly tries to "extort" something in return of him standing with the established order. A disloyal trickster.

I do occasionally frequent some geopolitics themed Discord servers who could be considered Western-biased.
Full to the brim with your run-off-the-mill Western Europeans and corn-fed Americans and some occasional East Asians. All they are on is China.
They're laser-focused on what the PLA is developing or how the CCP is behaving or what India is doing to counter China on a day-to-day-to-day basis.
Erdogan or Turkiye in general barely comes up. And when it does, it gets its fair share of usual "western condescending worldview towards Turks" schlock and fizzles back down.

Now you're right about their plot towards our nation. That still exists and festers deep. But in the grand scheme of things, its not relevant at all. And that's something we can use in our favor to grow stronger.

 

[Heartbang]

A nuke, at this point, therefore, is the last thing we need.

Ah yes, lets not build a nuke to look sympathetic to our western overlords who wish to divy up lands we call home and hang us all "savages" high, woman and children included.
That'll relieve the pressure! (!)
Might as well bring your own lube to that kinda futtbuckery.

Image is important, but not that much. The society you're trying to look nice doesn't even consider you their equal. You're an untermensch in their eyes. A mere ice cream huckster and watermelon seller. Just like the Iraqis.
Standing tall and strong against wholesale inequality and oppression is a PR no media conglomerate can give you.

 

[Rooxbar]

Their next Saddam is Communist China. Compared to CCP, Erdogan is a mere nuisance.

America attacked Vietnam in the cold war, not USSR.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

Ah yes, lets not build a nuke to look sympathetic to our western overlords who wish to divy up lands we call home and hang us all "savages" high, woman and children included.
That'll relieve the pressure! (!)
Might as well bring your own lube to that kinda futtbuckery.

Image is important, but not that much. The society you're trying to look nice doesn't even consider you their equal. You're an untermensch in their eyes. A mere ice cream huckster and watermelon seller. Just like the Iraqis.
Standing tall and strong against wholesale inequality and oppression is a PR no media conglomerate can give you.

I'd rather have the image of North Korea than a country that is split into multiple smaller ones. So yeah, people who think Nukes are not needed for Türkiye have no fucking clue.

 

[Rooxbar]

Nukes has helped North Korea so much, it's unbelievable. More than 60% of your exports is to Europe. This idea that all Europeans unconditionally see Turks as untermensch is only true, if you're only interaction is with weirdo political nerds on internet forums. These same Europeans had a much more positive perception of Turkey as a country 10 years ago. Same thing goes for any country. Israel has suffered a huge amount of loss of face in the past decade, due their governments' callous attitude, and it won't be long they face the consequences ala south Africa. Read John Leahey's studies of perceptions of South Africa's apartheid state before its demise; western perception of that regime was overwhelmingly positive until about 1986; a year later there was an international boycott movement.

It's not about appeasing the west, it's about controlling perceptions. Stupid people can't do it.

 

[Rooxbar]

I'd rather have the image of North Korea than a country that is split into multiple smaller ones. So yeah, people who think Nukes are not needed for Türkiye have no fucking clue.

Prosperity is the strongest revenge. You're deluding yourself if you think you'd be ok with living under North Korean conditions, rather than having a smart public perceptions campaign, to both get what you want and not give ammo to your enemies to act without discretion. All these defense industry acheivements you're proud of are the result of integration into the international system of education and industry. Go to Iran and look at what condition their industrial base is.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

Nukes has helped North Korea so much, it's unbelievable. More than 60% of your exports is to Europe. This idea that all Europeans unconditionally see Turks as untermensch is only true, if you're only interaction is with weirdo political nerds on internet forums. These same Europeans had a much more positive perception of Turkey as a country 10 years ago. Same thing goes for any country. Israel has suffered a huge amount of loss of face in the past decade, due their governments' callous attitude, and it won't be long they face the consequences ala south Africa. Read John Leahey's studies of perceptions of South Africa's apartheid state before its demise; western perception of that regime was overwhelmingly positive until about 1986; a year later there was an international boycott movement.

It's not about appeasing the west, it's about controlling perceptions. Stupid people can't do it.

And what will all this stuff you talk here help us once the US, NATO, Iran and what not will attack us all at the same time? Look at the history and you'll see that many times they attacked us with multiple nations. When it comes to Türkiye, biggest enemies become friends. I get what you mean, but absolute security is worth more than anything.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

Prosperity is the strongest revenge. You're deluding yourself if you think you'd be ok with living under North Korean conditions, rather than having a smart public perceptions campaign, to both get what you want and not give ammo to your enemies to act without discretion. All these defense industry acheivements you're proud of are the result of integration into the international system of education and industry. Go to Iran and look at what condition their industrial base is.

I said the "image" image and reality are often times VERY different.

 

[Heartbang]

America attacked Vietnam in the cold war, not USSR.

And they'll attack China. Not in a ballsy way they used to do of course, but more of a subtle, more ambiguous "did we do that?" kinda way.

it's about controlling perceptions. Stupid people can't do it.

it's about controlling the perceptions of a populous who's already set on you. Which is a stupid endeavor.

 

[Anastasius]

not strictly Turkiye-focussed

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1621214948067098626

"bring to Canada from countries where they are at risk"

Given how Canadian politics are nowadays, I don't think Uyghurs will be much safer from the CCP there than anywhere else.

Their next Saddam is Communist China. Compared to CCP, Erdogan is a mere nuisance.
Someone who does not "hold the line" in this new "democracies vs autocracies" cold war of ours and constantly tries to "extort" something in return of him standing with the established order. A disloyal trickster.

I do occasionally frequent some geopolitics themed Discord servers who could be considered Western-biased.
Full to the brim with your run-off-the-mill Western Europeans and corn-fed Americans and some occasional East Asians. All they are on is China.
They're laser-focused on what the PLA is developing or how the CCP is behaving or what India is doing to counter China on a day-to-day-to-day basis.
Erdogan or Turkiye in general barely comes up. And when it does, it gets its fair share of usual "western condescending worldview towards Turks" schlock and fizzles back down.

Now you're right about their plot towards our nation. That still exists and festers deep. But in the grand scheme of things, its not relevant at all. And that's something we can use in our favor to grow stronger.

China is too big to be the next Saddam. They are the "Big Bad" of US foreign policy or so it would appear. Saddam was just a relatively small fry in the grand scale of world affairs. So Turkey actually fits the bill better, not saying this to alarm anyone.

 

[Heartbang]

"bring to Canada from countries where they are at risk"

Given how Canadian politics are nowadays, I don't think Uyghurs will be much safer from the CCP there than anywhere else.

That I agree. Trudeau is a notorious commie bootlicker

 

[Afif]

That I agree. Trudeau is a notorious commie bootlicker

No offense, but this is a baseless accusation.