TR Foreign Policy & Geopolitics

Ryder

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EU has already closed the book on TR accession to the EU, relations worsen


They would rather get Moldova in rather than Turkiye.

Shows once again what a farce the EU is.

They also took in Cyprus into the EU with that effort they know that Turkiye going into EU is now doomed as they got Cyprus in and the Cyprus issue has not been solved.

By this rate Russia even has a better chance in getting into the EU rather than Turkiye.

Good old Christian Club.
 

Afif

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Regardless of what people think of Erdogan.

He hits the spot right here.

But he also send Davutoglu to walk alongside those world leaders.🙄

I mean, that was a terrorist attack no doubt and should have been condemned explicitly, but that was too much for someone claiming to be a devout muslim to stand with a piece of garbage like Charlie Hebdo.
 
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Ryder

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But he also send Davutoglu to walk alongside those world leaders.🙄

I mean, that was a terrorist attack no doubt and should have been condemned explicitly, but that was too much for someone claiming to be a devout muslim to stand with a piece of garbage like Charlie Hebdo.

1 death is a tragedy while a thousand is just a statistic
 

Bozan

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Hmm

"Adams's 2021 mayoral campaign conspired with a Brooklyn construction company and the Turkish government to funnel foreign money into the campaign"


FBI have escalated the investigation. I wonder if this is related to the Turkish embassy building or anything else in new York

Also apparently TR spent thousands of dollars giving this guy free holidays in TR lol
 

Ryder

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FBI have escalated the investigation. I wonder if this is related to the Turkish embassy building or anything else in new York

Also apparently TR spent thousands of dollars giving this guy free holidays in TR lol

Why was Turkiye supporting Eric Adams?
 

Nilgiri

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If India will not fight with us when we go to war with Greece, then there is no need to dream big with India. Interstate relations are, above all, established with sincerity. You cannot walk a long way with a state that is hypocritical towards us. Or, for his sake, you cannot waste a country that you are truly sincere to. This is a strategic politics 101 course beyond political Islam. Some of us dream big. However, when it comes to serious matters, India will not support us at the expense of its relations with the USA. You must understand this.

No one's asking you to "dream big". Just think real.

Not everything need to be some reductive thing hinging on "war with Greece".... just like everything for countries w.r.t Pakistan need not hinge on "war with India" (or "war with AFG, Iran, with itself ").

Turkiye has developed strong relations in all kind of arenas with countries that will likely overtly take Greek side in any war in future (and such war should hopefully never come)...and are in far greater proximity to the theater to begin with. The NATO alliance, EU bloc et al. have all impressed their way upon Turkiye....does it mean Turkiye did not and does not deploy significant resources to those relationships?

Just like India has over time deployed significant relationship building with countries that have taken and still take overtly the Pakistani or Chinese side on matters (including the US, West and larger muslim world etc etc in the past and some in the present too).

But you don't know results unless you try things wisely in structured way with what you have.

It is not like Pakistan deep down doesn't know Turkish limit, the Pakistani major general gave an account here when push came to shove here:

1971 Crisis : THE GREAT CENTO LET DOWN
Maj Gen (Retd) S WAJAHAT HUSSAIN

You see in the earlier days of the certain subhuman psyche forum that ejected "biraader" Turks en masse from it to spur creation of this forum in first place (that mental drama of the hyper-islamist-ummah, especially the ayatollah variant... vs Ataturk having come to its conclusion there at that point).... I remember chatting with one so called "elevated" contributor there as to what he thought of Turkiye naming a road after Sheikh Mujib Rahman, that too after this "vast help" given by TR to Pakistan in its largest existential challenge and the drastic manner of its conclusion.

In the reply he gave, was really early indication already why the hyper-islamist prefers certain things and why...and eventually out came an utter contempt for Ataturk and Turkish nationalist ethos as well (since these things made Turkiye think things in its own independent way, rather than what people like him demanded it think). There is reason ultimately why Pakistan heads down the direction it is heading down right now....the fire that Ataturk lit in Turkiye simply never had a chance to start in Pakistan's psyche.

Past that, it makes quite a lot of sense to me now, why I persist in this forum, versus the "biraaders" who prefer to persist there in their various states of depraved mental squalor (and all the fellow travellers addicted to this, incl many Indians, Bangladeshis, Iranians, Westerners, Chinese etc etc unfortunately) when options fully given regarding basic order vs chaos for trying to actually get somewhere good in discussions and understanding.
 

Asena_great

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If India will not fight with us when we go to war with Greece, then there is no need to dream big with India. Interstate relations are, above all, established with sincerity. You cannot walk a long way with a state that is hypocritical towards us. Or, for his sake, you cannot waste a country that you are truly sincere to. This is a strategic politics 101 course beyond political Islam. Some of us dream big. However, when it comes to serious matters, India will not support us at the expense of its relations with the USA. You must understand this.
typical pelikan mentality
 

Bogeyman 

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No one's asking you to "dream big". Just think real.

Not everything need to be some reductive thing hinging on "war with Greece".... just like everything for countries w.r.t Pakistan need not hinge on "war with India" (or "war with AFG, Iran, with itself ").

Turkiye has developed strong relations in all kind of arenas with countries that will likely overtly take Greek side in any war in future (and such war should hopefully never come)...and are in far greater proximity to the theater to begin with. The NATO alliance, EU bloc et al. have all impressed their way upon Turkiye....does it mean Turkiye did not and does not deploy significant resources to those relationships?

Just like India has over time deployed significant relationship building with countries that have taken and still take overtly the Pakistani or Chinese side on matters (including the US, West and larger muslim world etc etc in the past and some in the present too).

But you don't know results unless you try things wisely in structured way with what you have.

It is not like Pakistan deep down doesn't know Turkish limit, the Pakistani major general gave an account here when push came to shove here:

1971 Crisis : THE GREAT CENTO LET DOWN
Maj Gen (Retd) S WAJAHAT HUSSAIN

You see in the earlier days of the certain subhuman psyche forum that ejected "biraader" Turks en masse from it to spur creation of this forum in first place (that mental drama of the hyper-islamist-ummah, especially the ayatollah variant... vs Ataturk having come to its conclusion there at that point).... I remember chatting with one so called "elevated" contributor there as to what he thought of Turkiye naming a road after Sheikh Mujib Rahman, that too after this "vast help" given by TR to Pakistan in its largest existential challenge and the drastic manner of its conclusion.

In the reply he gave, was really early indication already why the hyper-islamist prefers certain things and why...and eventually out came an utter contempt for Ataturk and Turkish nationalist ethos as well (since these things made Turkiye think things in its own independent way, rather than what people like him demanded it think). There is reason ultimately why Pakistan heads down the direction it is heading down right now....the fire that Ataturk lit in Turkiye simply never had a chance to start in Pakistan's psyche.

Past that, it makes quite a lot of sense to me now, why I persist in this forum, versus the "biraaders" who prefer to persist there in their various states of depraved mental squalor (and all the fellow travellers addicted to this, incl many Indians, Bangladeshis, Iranians, Westerners, Chinese etc etc unfortunately) when options fully given regarding basic order vs chaos for trying to actually get somewhere good in discussions and understanding.
You are only thinking purely of international politics in peacetime.

First of all, let me remind you of the importance of strategic depth and reliability in the points you missed.

It is not possible for Turkey to target deep ties in the defense industry with both countries. Because if you deepen ties with one side, this will be seen as insincerity in the other country. This reduces you to average country status for the other side.

None of the countries that are our so-called allies in NATO are really sincere about fighting with us against Russia. This was tested and seen when we shot down the Russian plane in 2015.
However, unlike them, Pakistan has a sincerity in fighting shoulder to shoulder with us. And you cannot defend the Pakistan-India balance policy when nuclear weapons are on the table.
If Pakistan is going to put the nuclear option on the table, it will want to see our clear stance on Kashmir.

Even if Turkey's hand is not guaranteed in this regard, it is obvious that we are in a much better situation than the strategic advantages that India can provide against us.

Moreover, the deepening of Türkiye-India relations would lead us into a dangerous impasse. Because the USA will ask India to embargo us if we go to war with Greece. The USA can't impose the same on Pakistan, can it?

That's why I prefer not to believe that India will come to help Turkey in difficult times.

Military balances also have a weight in peacetime. Turkey has long-term and large-scale plans with Central Asian countries. It is possible that Pakistan will also be included in the equation during Turkey's efforts to establish unity with the countries in the region. We can expect Pakistan to be a military deterrent against Russia. However, while India has deep ties with Russia, it is impossible to think that it will support the Central Asian countries, let alone go to war for them.

Therefore, the ties we can establish with India are doomed to reach a dead end. And the Pakistan-India balance policy may result in us losing the bulgur we have.
 

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Bogeyman 

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You are only thinking purely of international politics in peacetime.

First of all, let me remind you of the importance of strategic depth and reliability in the points you missed.

It is not possible for Turkey to target deep ties in the defense industry with both countries. Because if you deepen ties with one side, this will be seen as insincerity in the other country. This reduces you to average country status for the other side.

None of the countries that are our so-called allies in NATO are really sincere about fighting with us against Russia. This was tested and seen when we shot down the Russian plane in 2015.
However, unlike them, Pakistan has a sincerity in fighting shoulder to shoulder with us. And you cannot defend the Pakistan-India balance policy when nuclear weapons are on the table.
If Pakistan is going to put the nuclear option on the table, it will want to see our clear stance on Kashmir.

Even if Turkey's hand is not guaranteed in this regard, it is obvious that we are in a much better situation than the strategic advantages that India can provide against us.

Moreover, the deepening of Türkiye-India relations would lead us into a dangerous impasse. Because the USA will ask India to embargo us if we go to war with Greece. The USA can't impose the same on Pakistan, can it?

That's why I prefer not to believe that India will come to help Turkey in difficult times.

Military balances also have a weight in peacetime. Turkey has long-term and large-scale plans with Central Asian countries. It is possible that Pakistan will also be included in the equation during Turkey's efforts to establish unity with the countries in the region. We can expect Pakistan to be a military deterrent against Russia. However, while India has deep ties with Russia, it is impossible to think that it will support the Central Asian countries, let alone go to war for them.

Therefore, the ties we can establish with India are doomed to reach a dead end. And the Pakistan-India balance policy may result in us losing the bulgur we have.
I would not trade my relationship with my strategic partners in international relations for a relationship of average depth. Our nation complains about the absence of a reliable strategic partner when these issues begin to be discussed.

If you want a strategic partnership then you need to prove that you are trustworthy. If you cannot establish reliable partnerships, then when EU countries embargo you, you cannot turn around and demand an embargo from Central Asian countries for uranium sent to EU countries.
 

GoatsMilk

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the hyper-islamist prefers certain things and why...and eventually out came an utter contempt for Ataturk and Turkish nationalist ethos as well (since these things made

In general all forms of hyper islamism today have been cultivated and promoted by the anglo-american world. It keeps the muslim brain dead, it controls how he thinks and thus by extension constantly act in a way that is counter productive to his interests.

The problem we have is that we are in the generations who have been brainwashed in these ideas from birth, there is nothing that can be done to bring them out of it. In many ways i think Islamic civilisation has been condemned to dive head first off a cliff. You get an Ataturk today, before he has a chance to raise his voice the Islamist will murder him.

I honestly think that if Turkiye completely falls to this western financed islamism, its over for Islamic civilisation in the mid to long term. Keep in mind that FETO and AK party were meant to turn Turkiye into another Iran. The ambition would have been that the leader of FETO would have been the returning Ayatollah to Turkiye. In Irans case their pre baked leader was shipped in from France, in Turkiyes case it would have been from America.

Turks must remember that the British empire were the first ones to understand the value in hyper islamism being used to destroy the empire from with in. It never stopped, today the anglo-american world is the biggest instigator of extremist islamism globally. All you have to do is pay attention to the results of Islamism and you see its nearly all leads to failure.

On a side note the biggest media entities in Turkiye like "daily zaman" used to constantly write articles about how great the feto leader was and how his wisdom and guidance was important for Turkiye. Meanwhile every other article was promoting the balkanisation of Turkiye and constantly insulting Turkish history and culture.

Many racists within Turkiye realised that clinging to islamism allowed them to attack Turks and get away with it. We are a country where the Turk experiences the most racism. We even had mentally sick islamist given TV shows to tell Turks how bad Ataturk was and it would have been better for Islam had the christians destroyed the Turkish armies of Ataturk.
 
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M

Maximilien Robespierre

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So what if the USA blacklisted us? The USA itself provides open support to YPG, which forcibly recruits children. Nobody says a word to the USA. International relations are shaped around power. If you want to defend your own interests, then you will not accept such fake impositions on you. The genocides committed by the USA in Raqqa in Syria and Mosul in Iraq have clearly revealed how dirty they are. In this case, it is unthinkable that such a country would accuse Turkey with such allegations.

I'm telling the general public
If you turn Turkey's national values into a matter of domestic politics and open them up for discussion, you will become a partner in their plans, even if unknowingly. The essence of foreign policy is pure power politics. The power of discourses or claims is not measured by your legitimacy. It is measured by your national power elements.

They will only listen and take into consideration if you are strong. Then even if you are cruel, you will be declared right. But if you are weak, no one will listen to your righteous cause.
They support ypg and we support jihadists terrorist same shit diffrent breed. FSA is made out of diffrent jihadist groups who plunder and kill in the name of allah.
They are not even good at fighting our tax money is going to these narco terrorists.

One who is living in glass house shouldn't throw rocks at others.
 

Bogeyman 

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They support ypg and we support jihadists terrorist same shit diffrent breed. FSA is made out of diffrent jihadist groups who plunder and kill in the name of allah.
They are not even good at fighting our tax money is going to these narco terrorists.

One who is living in glass house shouldn't throw rocks at others.
The US military used uranium-impregnated bullets in all the countries it occupied. That's why babies are born deformed in Fallujah, Iraq. (@FDefects has enough visuals on the relevant X account) With the genocides committed by the US army and torture in places such as Abu Ghraib prisons, they cannot even come close to the Turkish army. I'm not talking about groups supported in proxy wars here. I'm talking directly about the millions of people who were murdered here. They did the same thing in Vietnam.
They used orange gas as a chemical weapon there too.

The United States is the country that dropped the atomic bomb on Japan, which withdrew from the war in World War II, just to intimidate Soviet Russia, even though it was about to surrender. They did this arbitrarily. They had no military gain.

Yes, Americans living in glass houses should not talk to us about human rights. Because the last country in this world that can talk about human rights is the USA.
 

Bozan

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They support ypg and we support jihadists terrorist same shit diffrent breed. FSA is made out of diffrent jihadist groups who plunder and kill in the name of allah.
They are not even good at fighting our tax money is going to these narco terrorists.

One who is living in glass house shouldn't throw rocks at others.

America is smart enough to NOT fund extremists on the border that will cause trouble and turn on you, when you stop funding them
 
M

Maximilien Robespierre

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America is smart enough to NOT fund extremists on the border that will cause trouble and turn on you, when you stop funding them
We had that problem with FSA yeah some of the groups turned against the orders even against us very dangerous situation
 

Nilgiri

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You are only thinking purely of international politics in peacetime.

First of all, let me remind you of the importance of strategic depth and reliability in the points you missed.

It is not possible for Turkey to target deep ties in the defense industry with both countries. Because if you deepen ties with one side, this will be seen as insincerity in the other country. This reduces you to average country status for the other side.

None of the countries that are our so-called allies in NATO are really sincere about fighting with us against Russia. This was tested and seen when we shot down the Russian plane in 2015.
However, unlike them, Pakistan has a sincerity in fighting shoulder to shoulder with us. And you cannot defend the Pakistan-India balance policy when nuclear weapons are on the table.
If Pakistan is going to put the nuclear option on the table, it will want to see our clear stance on Kashmir.

Even if Turkey's hand is not guaranteed in this regard, it is obvious that we are in a much better situation than the strategic advantages that India can provide against us.

Moreover, the deepening of Türkiye-India relations would lead us into a dangerous impasse. Because the USA will ask India to embargo us if we go to war with Greece. The USA can't impose the same on Pakistan, can it?

That's why I prefer not to believe that India will come to help Turkey in difficult times.

Military balances also have a weight in peacetime. Turkey has long-term and large-scale plans with Central Asian countries. It is possible that Pakistan will also be included in the equation during Turkey's efforts to establish unity with the countries in the region. We can expect Pakistan to be a military deterrent against Russia. However, while India has deep ties with Russia, it is impossible to think that it will support the Central Asian countries, let alone go to war for them.

Therefore, the ties we can establish with India are doomed to reach a dead end. And the Pakistan-India balance policy may result in us losing the bulgur we have.

I understand where you are coming from. Yes I am speaking more of the peacetime relationship rather than military strategic one.

The latter tends to slot in firmly and persist for its various reasons.

However any country must also analyse and weigh other side of the coin with countries it finds itself in such relationships (in past and present to manage/hedge the future)....to the highest degree possible.

Proof of action weighed past words when it comes to gauging things like sincerity.

Some are microcosms and some are macrocosms, some are combinations:


A) Pakistani participation in this forum versus Turkish participation in the other forum. Manner of things that happened and why.
Why things like this came to head the way they did if everything is firm at even strategic apex level.

One would expect any trivialities smoothed over easily and effectively....yet certain things stuck in the craw especially when it came to (especially) Iran and its "games" (forum level reflecting the geopolitical level). Unsurprisingly also the big country in between Pakistan and Turkiye.



B) If aid was severely lacking in the 71 war (given what they lost, the manner in how they lost it... and how it sticks in their memory, heavy chip on shoulder and axe grinding), how can the Pakistanis be assumed to act in the end in some direct way regd. Greece/NATO/US et al w.r.t some conflict/war with Turkiye?

It needs proof again in the past to be harnessed in present and future rather than words right? If A was not done, why would the mirror reciprocity B be assumed to be fait accompli done? i.e what is actually transactions in the end (since no one runs a charity, especially in geopolitics) with veneer of sincerity for the feeling of warmth.


C) What has Pakistan's relationship been with the Turkic groups of Afghanistan in that conflict? One with Turkish and Central Asian Turkic interests? Or?



D) Putting aside the heavy impact of Persian in language, culture, islamist ethos and so on within Pakistan (the basic script chosen vs script Ataturk chose to move away from)... what was the side Pakistan took in the Syria war to begin with you mention?

Did mercenary fighters get sent to help the Turks or Assad (on behest of Iran)? Pakistan come clean and take accountability on this? Or shrug its shoulders?..like with AFG (and now AFG shrugs its shoulders at TTP).

What has the continued relationship been like with Assad (upsetting many Turks right in this forum that I saw a few times)...while Turkish forces and allies blood still fresh on his hands?



E) If you are bringing up a nuclear angle, what exactly was the extent of Pakistani involvement in the Iranian nuclear program given Pakistan knowing full well what the Ayatollah regime and larger Iranian relationship and security threat was and is to Turkey?

Was there a basis for Turkiye to develop something independently over timeframe needed on its own strategic accord anyway (and proof to show for this)? Why was it not done? Why NATO/US NWS at incirlik instead all this while? These all have no inertias and momentums for Turkiye?



F) Regd Russia, did Imran Khan (while PM) actually attend the much vaunted meeting with Erdogan and Mahathir? Or KSA was able to put some pressure that overrides things?

Where was he (quite strangely) when Russia-Ukraine war broke out? What is the nature of leverage Iran and KSA enjoy in Pakistan (especially since the 80s) and why compared to Turkiye?

What to make of relationship now where lot of asserted pro-Turk PTI (IK supporters) Pakistanis say any country in the world dealing with current Pakistani (army backed) regime is doing Pakistan great harm?

They say that any country helping this regime is helping the US in the end (as they say US were complicity in Pakistani army removing IK).
regd Kashmir issue stance, economy, foreign relations, internal security etc... (decisions and results by that regime so far compared to IK as they see it)?

Has Turkiye heeded their (most "pro Turk" mass of Pakistanis, that of course also deliberately avoid this biraader forum for its lack of vice) call sincerely? What is the correlation of this asserted pro-Turk mass on largely just a pro-Erdogan basis too?

There's lot more I could go into, but I'll stop here.


Again putting aside everything Turkiye has leveraged with and continues to leverage with (in its military development, putting aside economics) the NATO forces you say will be on the other side in any war with Greece. If the approach is good for goose (NATO, West), should it not be for the gander (Russia, India, China other entities etc).

Putting that aside, I'm just saying absolute proven sincerity would need a considerable amount of proof to have been built in complete different ways on these matters...as simply talk is cheap.

Now gauged relative sincerity given the real imperfect world, that I can understand. But it must be understood to be a relative one, with flaws to analyse and build up own resilience to counter and hedge.

Because actual patriot and soldier blood on line when its wartime is something only any country can count on only itself for....papers, treaties, words, promises all go out the window, and you are left with transactions completed (if these were actually advantageous all things considered, you will find out only in the war)...as any other (wherever asserted vs actually on spectrum) friend-ally-partner-acquaintaince (or enemy of enemy) has to make the call if sticking out their neck too is worth it for them.

Not understanding this, means countries just sell themselves short in the end (and suffer for it in war, sanctions etc), as relations are not properly hedged and balanced optimally. i.e too many IOUs accumulating on one side that wont be cashed in a war....and by the lopsidedness you also forewent some manner and number of things you could have bulked up instead in peacetime (and related transfer coefficient to a future war effort that way).
 

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