Greece Air-Force Greek Rafale Program

[Kansei]

It was a good design why didn't guy worked on it? with that mind you won't be able to improve in any defence Industry

Again I’ve mentioned this in another thread, but Turkey’s as an entity attempt to fund its reliance on its self is something that Greece should really look up to. In this certain example it was only a prototype design and Mitsotakis probably felt the pressure of a quick proven solution so he had valid reasons not to pick them but in general, our government can never fulfill a self-sustaining economy, either cause of the Eurozone or their own choice of quick growth of the economy and voters vs a sustainable future

 

[Profchaos]

Even though that akritas guy is extremely toxic i must say that there are some turks in this thread radiating toxicity around. It is really a pissing contest for them.

 

[Tornadoss]

I wasn’t the one pointing it out, they specifically numbered the types of aircraft not the number of aircrafts. Also I don’t think it always has to do with weight. The F-4 can carry 5x GBU-10 that weigh each 956kg but it is listed that it can carry only 4x GBU-15 that weigh 910kg, but I’m not very knowledgeable when it comes to armament numbers so forgive me if I’m saying total bs

Well, the topic was SOM and SCALP (as cruise missile). Which fighters able to carry scalp in your inventory? Mirage and Rafale. Which fighters able to carry SOM? F-16 and and F-4. That's it, you are looking into wrong details.

Each hard point has different payload capacity based on their distance to fuselage. More away from fuselage it must be lighter.
This is for F-16 according to https://www.key.aero/forum/modern-military-aviation/5411-fighter-payloads

centre pylon = 2,200lb
wing inner pylons = 4,500lb each
wing middle pylons = 3,500lb each
wing outer pylons = 700lb each
wing tip pylons = 425lb each
TOTAL 20,450lb

 

[Akritas]

Turkey has 293 jets and a number of Akinci HALE UCAVs constantly increasing in number all of which can use SOM cruise missiles.

• First the jets are 279(19 F-4E, 35 F-16C/D Block 30, 195 F-16C/D Block 50, 30 F-16C/D Block 50+)
• Second, you have huge availability problems with the combat pilots. Only the departures had already brought the ratio of pilots to aircraft to 0.65, which is dangerously low, in 2014. The number is even smaller because your president has put about 100 pilots in jail.
• 3nd, there is a availability problem due to the embargo.
• 4th, there is a quality problem, that's why you desperately asked for new 40 F16V as also 80 modernization kits for 80 older F16.
• 5th, why you are not telling us, which of the F16s are certified for SOM , because with what I see only 50+ can, and those with conditions, that is, if they have upgraded the electronics.
• Final, SOM J , is a developent with the substantial participation of the US Lockeed Martin.Due to the embargo, does this cooperation continue?

 

[Kansei]

Well, the topic was SOM and SCALP (as cruise missile). Which fighters able to carry scalp in your inventory? Mirage and Rafale. Which fighters able to carry SOM? F-16 and and F-4. That's it, you are looking into wrong details.

Each hard point has different payload capacity based on their distance to fuselage. More away from fuselage it must be lighter.
This is for F-16 according to https://www.key.aero/forum/modern-military-aviation/5411-fighter-payloads

centre pylon = 2,200lb
wing inner pylons = 4,500lb each
wing middle pylons = 3,500lb each
wing outer pylons = 700lb each
wing tip pylons = 425lb each
TOTAL 20,450lb

I’ve already replied above why I don’t think it always has to do with weight. You can check on the F-4 wiki page for several examples of lighter ammunition maxing out at a smaller number than heavier ammunition

 

[Kansei]

• First the jets are 279(19 F-4E, 35 F-16C/D Block 30, 195 F-16C/D Block 50, 30 F-16C/D Block 50+)
• Second, you have huge availability problems with the combat pilots. Only the departures had already brought the ratio of pilots to aircraft to 0.65, which is dangerously low, in 2014. The number is even smaller because your president has put about 100 pilots in jail.
• 3nd, there is a availability problem due to the embargo.
• 4th, there is a quality problem, that's why you desperately asked for new 40 F16V as also 80 modernization kits for 80 older F16.
• 5th, why you are not telling us, which of the F16s are certified for SOM , because with what I see only 50+ can, and those with conditions, that is, if they have upgraded the electronics.
• Final, SOM J , is a developent with the substantial participation of the US Lockeed Martin.Due to the embargo, does this cooperation continue?

Also isn’t the F4 2020 Terminator’s radar max range 150km ?

 

[Akritas]

Also isn’t the F4 2020 Terminator’s radar max range 150km ?

The problem with planes like the F-4 Phantom is the simple fact they are 3rd generation fighters that have been upgraded with modern avionics and engines and the limits placed on them from wing loading and shape can’t be changed.
The radar is the updated version of the AN/APG-65 , not even AN/APG-73, and it has range 110 km.

AN / APG-65

AN / APG-65

second.wiki

 

[Oublious]

F4 Terminator is used for air to groud mission, it doesn't need a radar range of 200km or 400km , need to deliver the bombs and cruisemissiles.

 

[Tornadoss]

I’ve already replied above why I don’t think it always has to do with weight. You can check on the F-4 wiki page for several examples of lighter ammunition maxing out at a smaller number than heavier ammunition

Well, F-4 is able to carry double Popeye missiles, A popeye missile is around 1360 kg around twice the weight of the SOM. So, SOM is no problem for F-4. Btw, you don't need a radar for a ground attack. They would be escorted by F-16 in a case of bombing mission.

 

[Kansei]

Well, F-4 is able to carry double Popeye missiles, A popeye missile is around 1360 kg around twice the weight of the SOM. So, SOM is no problem for F-4. Btw, you don't need a radar for a ground attack. They would be escorted by F-16 in a case of bombing mission.

How come you don't need a radar ? Again I don't know how valid this point is but it is listed that it can carry 5x GBU-10 bombs that each weigh 934-956 kg but only 4x AGM 45 that weigh 177kg each, so it seems that the fact that it's a 3rd Gen Fighter really puts a strain on the plane technologically. One has to wonder if any amount of avionic upgrades can completely mordenize the plane , let alone a modernization from the late 90s.

 

[Tornadoss]

• First the jets are 279(19 F-4E, 35 F-16C/D Block 30, 195 F-16C/D Block 50, 30 F-16C/D Block 50+)
• Second, you have huge availability problems with the combat pilots. Only the departures had already brought the ratio of pilots to aircraft to 0.65, which is dangerously low, in 2014. The number is even smaller because your president has put about 100 pilots in jail.
• 3nd, there is a availability problem due to the embargo.
• 4th, there is a quality problem, that's why you desperately asked for new 40 F16V as also 80 modernization kits for 80 older F16.
• 5th, why you are not telling us, which of the F16s are certified for SOM , because with what I see only 50+ can, and those with conditions, that is, if they have upgraded the electronics.
• Final, SOM J , is a developent with the substantial participation of the US Lockeed Martin.Due to the embargo, does this cooperation continue?

1. Turkey has Block 30 (36),40(112~), 50 (73~), 50+(30). 40s and 50s upgraded with CCIP.
2. The combat pilot availability is solving, new pilots are raising. It's been 5,5 years since the attempted coup.
3. Afaik there is no component problem, TEI and TUSAS have lots of experience with engines and the structure. TEI has produced the engines under license and most of the critical parts are produced in Turkey. TUSAS is currently doing a structural upgrade of Block 30s.
4. Most of the Aırcrafts received the CCIP upgrade not so long ago. It's correct we requested the upgrade but it's because the USA is not giving us F-35s and we already paid some of the money for these aircraft. So we go instead with F-16 for the money we paid.
5. AFAIK, SOM integrated with Block 40s so far.
6. Turkey worked with LM to integrate SOM-J to F-35 not for getting help to develop it. Last time I checked acceptance tests were ongoing. https://www.defenceturkey.com/tr/ic...uzesi-atis-testi-icin-geri-sayim-basladi-4733 Link is in Turkish but google translate would give you the idea.

 

[Kansei]

1. Turkey has Block 30 (36),40(112~), 50 (73~), 50+(30). 40s and 50s upgraded with CCIP.
2. The combat pilot availability is solving, new pilots are raising. It's been 5,5 years since the attempted coup.
3. Afaik there is no component problem, TEI and TUSAS have lots of experience with engines and the structure. TEI has produced the engines under license and most of the critical parts are produced in Turkey. TUSAS is currently doing a structural upgrade of Block 30s.
4. Most of the Aırcrafts received the CCIP upgrade not so long ago. It's correct we requested the upgrade but it's because the USA is not giving us F-35s and we already paid some of the money for these aircraft. So we go instead with F-16 for the money we paid.
5. AFAIK, SOM integrated with Block 40s so far.
6. Turkey worked with LM to integrate SOM-J to F-35 not for getting help to develop it. Last time I checked acceptance tests were ongoing. https://www.defenceturkey.com/tr/ic...uzesi-atis-testi-icin-geri-sayim-basladi-4733 Link is in Turkish but google translate would give you the idea.

Wikipedia states that only 80 Block 40/50 and 37 Block 30 F-16C/Ds got the CCIP upgrade while there are still 100 normal Block 40.

 

[Tornadoss]

How come you don't need a radar ? Again I don't know how valid this point is but it is listed that it can carry 5x GBU-10 bombs that each weigh 934-956 kg but only 4x AGM 45 that weigh 177kg each, so it seems that the fact that it's a 3rd Gen Fighter really puts a strain on the plane technologically. One has to wonder if any amount of avionic upgrades can completely mordenize the plane , let alone a modernization from the late 90s.

Why would SOM need radar? SOM is not a radar Guided missile. It's working with GPS/INS, Terrain referenced navigation, Image-based navigation, and have IIR Seeker. It's either pre-programmed or programmed during the flight. How do you think a cruise missile fired from a submarine, a Surface vehicle is working?

As I said F-4 able to carry popeye which have a greater weight than SOM.

 

[Kansei]

How come you don't need a radar ? Again I don't know how valid this point is but it is listed that it can carry 5x GBU-10 bombs that each weigh 934-956 kg but only 4x AGM 45 that weigh 177kg each, so it seems that the fact that it's a 3rd Gen Fighter really puts a strain on the plane technologically. One has to wonder if any amount of avionic upgrades can completely mordenize the plane , let alone a modernization from the late 90s.

@tornadoss can you please reply to this I am too tired to type it for the 3rd time only for it to be ignored again.

 

[Ardabas34]

@tornadoss can you please reply to this I am too tired to type it for the 3rd time only for it to be ignored again.

There is only one question there ''How come you don't need a radar ?'' and he answered that.

Why would SOM need radar? SOM is not a radar Guided missile. It's working with GPS/INS, Terrain referenced navigation, Image-based navigation, and have IIR Seeker. It's either pre-programmed or programmed during the flight. How do you think a cruise missile fired from a submarine, a Surface vehicle is working?

 

[Tornadoss]

@tornadoss can you please reply to this I am too tired to type it for the 3rd time only for it to be ignored again.

I didn't answer that part because I don't have any idea about it.
But I googled a little bit. Here is the weapon load for F-4, a little bit old. My guess is due to the launchers it can not carry more or don't maybe because of drag it creates, but this is a guess. It can carry 6 AGM-65 which are heavier.

 

[Akritas]

There is only one question there ''How come you don't need a radar ?'' and he answered that.

Why would SOM need radar? SOM is not a radar Guided missile. It's working with GPS/INS, Terrain referenced navigation, Image-based navigation, and have IIR Seeker. It's either pre-programmed or programmed during the flight. How do you think a cruise missile fired from a submarine, a Surface vehicle is working?

The problem is not the SOM , but the electromagnetic trace of the acft radar.
The F16-C/D and F-4 have big electromagnetic trace in relation to the newers radars of Rafale and F16V, therefore they are easily traceable. And the premise of TAF to get 16V has nothing to do with the money, but also with this, because the radars of the two new types of HAF are one level higher than the existing Turkish ones(and the old Greek).

 

[Kansei]

I didn't answer that part because I don't have any idea about it.
But I googled a little bit. Here is the weapon load for F-4, a little bit old. My guess is due to the launchers it can not carry more or don't maybe because of drag it creates, but this is a guess. It can carry 6 AGM-65 which are heavier.
View attachment 39083

I mean it can carry 18x GBU-12 at a time so I don't think drag is the issue

 

[Kansei]

Rafale Patches.....

View attachment 39006

View attachment 39007

View attachment 39008

View attachment 39009
View attachment 39010

The first one is really nice, are these official or made by third party companies Akritas?

 

[Akritas]

Akritas is just a parrot nothing else

akritas=bot literally any other greek speaks like a real "human" except him. He always says turks have no pilots speaks like he is working in the air force I have several friends and can say pilot problem has been sorted out years ago keep this as a new info. Im bored of Insulting you because you know what you are.

You have made two comments with personal attacks and zero arguments. That I speak rationally, bringing arguments is my personal culture. Yes, I'm a civil aviation person, and I've learned to talk and work with facts and resources.
You, and 2-3 specific compatriots, all you do is to make mock, destroy the threads that I opened, where I comment to make laugh likes (like you did in Israeli topic), to tell me how inclusive Turkey is and how easily you can conquer us.
I try to avoid personal conflicts, but as I said, I know where I came in, what I will encounter and what rules I will follow.
Over and out!!