Greece Analysis Greek Rafale Vs Turkish S400

[Cabatli_TR]

400 Km?
The effective range of the S-400 system is reportedly quite impressive (if one is to believe Russian claims), but is limited by the curvature of the earth and can’t penetrate Turkey’s mountainous geography.
So in my opinion 150 km will be the effective range but as mention here Hellenic Air Force will be called upon to locate and destroy S-400s on Turkish soil, that for training crews to conduct low-altitude penetration missions into enemy airspace 24 hours a day.
Please see the attachment.

In my previous comment, I underlined an important point in this regard. The concept of network-centric operations and the place of the S400 in this concept. Of course, the S400 will be subject to range restriction in stand-alone mode and will be an easy target but a S400 that engages in a threat determined in the common air picture within the adavnced network I mentioned will produce a result that you cannot predict in the field and it will have an effective close to the ranges I mentioned.

 

[Oublious]

He still do notunderstand what the rafeal have to deal with...

“Weapons of the Internet”: Network Centric Warfare, Command & Control and the Future

Many things can affect the nature of the battlefield, technological developments, combat methods, climatic changes, commercial developments, political developments etc.

en.defenceturk.net

 

[Huelague]

SCALP will do the job.

As far as S-400 is not protected.

 

[Timuçin]

Why does this person thinks One rafale can destroy everything turkey has? You have to be handicapped to think that war is just 2 units going eachother.First of all Anti Air batteries are protected 24/7 by both ground and Air forces you also have to think about AWACS superiority that turks has you can't just send your "rafales" to destroy it. I have seen your libya arguments What I can gather is a Mirage2000 not Rafale was only able destroy one 30 year old air defence system and damage the already damaged "Runway,Air base Door" This isn't magic results.About your other argurments Turks won't leave their AA systems Undefended they have EW system they got AWACS superiority they also got F16s circling the are 24/7 rafales will be detected before even reaching to the SAM sites.The stuff you said is like 2 kids playing and one says "I kill you with super punch" and other kid says "No I have anti super punch shield" childish arguments without having any real basis

 

[500]

As far as S-400 is not protected.

As we can see in Syria, protection does not help much. If you fire 8 SCALP missiles from 4 Rafales the chance is nearly zero.

You also should keep in mind that 400 km range is against slow flying high altitude targets. Against low flying targets it is limited to LOS.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

As we can see in Syria, protection does not help much. If you fire 8 SCALP missiles from 4 Rafales the chance is nearly zero.

You also should keep in mind that 400 km range is against slow flying high altitude targets. Against low flying targets it is limited to LOS.

Network centric warfare is the key in effectiveness of ground based systems. AEWC's play the key role in this concept. After detecting a target, S400 missile will have enough kinetic energy for up to 400km and this is a great advantage.

 

[Quasar]

So far all the Turkish air deffence missile systems ara and will be mobile and Greece have little to no way of keep tracking the positions of Turkish systems,when there is no target location simply there is target. scalp is good but mainly for stationary targets as we all know sell them some lotiring amunitions would be more effective May be but May be. I start supporting the idea that if İsrael provides weapons to our enemy we should provide weapons to Israel's enemies as well.

 

[500]

Actual mobility of systems like S-400 is very low. You need large area for all machines cables connecting them. Area should not be covered by buildings and hills around, you need access roads. For example S-400 systems in Syria were never moved since their arrival in 2016.

 

[Akritas]

Two thinks: If we speak with terms for the present, Rafale is not working alone, but with the helps of others Rafale/F-16V/Mirage 2000, the HELLAS-SAT and the Erieye's(AEW coverage), a full and Network centric warfare system.
This is my reply, if I understand or no as regards the Network centric warfare .
At the near future(3 years), will have the addition of the so call FDI-HN digital frigates, with Sentinel system (the most advanced west electronic warfare system) and Sea Fire radar, that will give more options as regards the neutralization of the Turkish S-400.

 

[Akritas]

Actual mobility of systems like S-400 is very low. You need large area for all machines cables connecting them. Area should not be covered by buildings and hills around, you need access roads. For example S-400 systems in Syria were never moved since their arrival in 2016.

Adding to that, Russia in Syria, has bring more S400 and S300 radars, in order to cover the "vision gaps" that creats the curvature of the earth and terrain's geography.

 

[Timuçin]

Two thinks: If we speak with terms for the present, Rafale is not working alone, but with the helps of others Rafale/F-16V/Mirage 2000, the HELLAS-SAT and the Erieye's(AEW coverage), a full and Network centric warfare system.
This is my reply, if I understand or no as regards the Network centric warfare .
At the near future(3 years), will have the addition of the so call FDI-HN digital frigates, with Sentinel system (the most advanced west electronic warfare system) and Sea Fire radar, that will give more options as regards the neutralization of the Turkish S-400.

Yes sir greek army is the best army in europe sir. Try to get those FDIs closer to Turkish mainland If you want to retire them early.

 

[Turko]

Firstly for multiple attacks of cruise missiles, armies keep short range air defense systems so that's why Turkish Army purchased Hisar A+ with excellent radars and sensors. Also we have perfect Gökdeniz CIWS.
If S400 batteries were naked without other air defense systems, 8 SCALPs would destroy them.

Secondly i would say even "the Chinese FD-2000 could detect Rafaels since the system has Type 305A AESA radar, Type 120 low altitude radar, Type 305B long range 3Dradar,YLC-20 passive sensor,DWL002 passive sensor.

Also FD-2000 missiles have active radar homing.

So i have to admit Chinese HQ-9 is really good SAM system, also i regret to have underestimated those when Turkey decided purchasing the systems.
HQ-9 is not technical analog of s-300.

If we had purchased FD-2000 , we could have had decent SAM systems 10 years ago with reasonable prices instead of being robbed by Russians.

With ToT Today we could integrate our indigenous AESA search radars with the systems.

Also ToT would have made US shut up.
We could have said that we ownself are producing them in our country.

 

[Domobran7]

Every object that can be detected by radars is a open target. Self-protection sensors never guarantee complete protection.

To be fair, nothing guarantees complete protection. Even objects that have reduced radar signature (e.g. stealth aircraft) may still get detected, by either other sensors or by mispositioning, chance etc. Same goes for SAMs themselves - ability to reposition etc. improves their survivability, but it is not a complete guarantee.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

To be fair, nothing guarantees complete protection. Even objects that have reduced radar signature (e.g. stealth aircraft) may still get detected, by either other sensors or by mispositioning, chance etc. Same goes for SAMs themselves - ability to reposition etc. improves their survivability, but it is not a complete guarantee.

That's why I talked about a network-centered protection or striking umbrella in which passive radars and active AESA radars work together, AEWC aircraft contribute to the air picture of conflict zones, Land-Air-Naval based Jammers are used to create air corridors and other elements of air forces with their striking missiles are involved in order to provide the best protection. No weapon alone can bring victory (Scalp, SOM, S400), the important thing is to create a concept where all of them are in full harmony and can make up for the shortcomings of the other systems and ability of using them actively.

 

[Foulgrim]

One weapon system can not be compared exclusively with another as in a war they will not only face each other but there will be a number of other weapon systems that will play their own strategic role.
I quote just below some issues that I think are a matter of inquiry for the officers of the Greek Armed Forces:
1) The S-400 Triumf has an impact range of 400 km and a target detection radar of 600 km while the missile speed reaches 14 Mach. Turkey's terrestrial territory drastically reduces the impact range of this weapon system. When the Russians built it, they knew the weaknesses of the weapons system and for that they combined it with AEW&C Beriev A-50 but also defense systems that would defend the S-400 Triumf. Some such defense systems that support the S-400 Triumf are the Buk, Tor & Pantsir multilayer defense shield. The recent wars in Libya, Nagorno-Karabakh and Syria have shown that the systems that protect the S-400 Triumf in Russian territory can not respond on their own to third countries without a multi-layered defense system, especially without AEW&C! Buk, Tor & Pantsir are outdated weapons systems in which the Russians have to make the necessary upgrades if they do not want the S-500 to suffer the same in the near future. Apparently they start and pass their lesson with the necessary upgrades needed in new versions having as main goal the UCAV where they are the biggest problem due to their low trace on the radar. The same mistake was made by the Turks with the KORAL Electronic Warfare System in Libya from the fighter jets at al-Watiya air base. But immediately the development of KORAL 2 was announced, a country when it sees that a defense system is outdated must improve it.
2) War is judged in the air but mainly by the multi-layered defense systems that each country has. The Rafale F3-R is superior to the F-16 C/D Block 50/52. The "Turkification" of an increasing number of subsystems and the inclusion of new missiles of various types in the quiver of F-16 C/D Block 50/52 by the Turkish defense industry raises a big question. What are the capabilities of a Turkish F-16 C/D Block 50/52 fighter and what are its differences from the Greek Rafale F3-R? This question can only be answered by the manufacturers of electronic subsystems and the manufacturers of missiles. Even if the Greek Rafale F3-R is superior to the Turkish F-16 C/D Block 50/52 of the Program Liberty(Özgür) the Greek Air Force will have to face a wide range of Turkish design and development of weapons systems in the near future.
3) Turkey is now reaping the results of copying and research-development of weapons systems that will give it security inside. The multi-layered defense umbrella of the Hisar family in various types and ranges shows that the key to victory is the best possible defense. Exactly the same example is given to us by nature in the animal kingdom as many leopards die every year because they try to kill hedgehogs! The defense is said to be the best attack, the 6 Day War shows us that a "hedgehog" puts up with numerically stronger opponents. Turkey is slowly becoming the Israel of the Muslim world by building air, land and sea weapons systems with increasing entropy. Greece with some FDI and some Rafale does not change the balance of power, it just covers holes of decades. In order for Greece to have a geopolitical presence in the Aegean Sea and more generally in the Eastern Mediterranean, it must do in its armaments what Turkey has done for 30 years!

 

[Huelague]

Can we hit GR AEWC or vice versa?

 

[Akritas]

The multi-layered defense umbrella of the Hisar family in various types and ranges shows that the key to victory is the best possible defense.

Hisar failed in Libya, more in ....

Al-Watiyah's hit exposed Turkey’s limitations... - SEMED ENERGY DEFENSE

The stalemate on Libya’s frontline near the port city of Sirte, did not stop Turkey from sending new weapons and equipment to the frontline, especially reinforcing the Al-Watiya Air Base which earlier this year was captured by GNA and became a strongpoint of Turkish forces. Nevertheless, the...

www.semedenergydefense.com

 

[Manomed]

Hisar failed in Libya, more in ....

Al-Watiyah's hit exposed Turkey’s limitations... - SEMED ENERGY DEFENSE

The stalemate on Libya’s frontline near the port city of Sirte, did not stop Turkey from sending new weapons and equipment to the frontline, especially reinforcing the Al-Watiya Air Base which earlier this year was captured by GNA and became a strongpoint of Turkish forces. Nevertheless, the...

www.semedenergydefense.com

there was no hisar in libya Hisar A+ is a diffrent AA system get your facts straight jesus f**** christ

 

[Manomed]

Hisar failed in Libya, more in ....

Al-Watiyah's hit exposed Turkey’s limitations... - SEMED ENERGY DEFENSE

The stalemate on Libya’s frontline near the port city of Sirte, did not stop Turkey from sending new weapons and equipment to the frontline, especially reinforcing the Al-Watiya Air Base which earlier this year was captured by GNA and became a strongpoint of Turkish forces. Nevertheless, the...

www.semedenergydefense.com

You are talking like Hisar A+ Hisar O Hisar U was in that air base are you handicapped or something?

 

[Manomed]

Article smells pure Greek bs tbh still says turkey doesn't have enough pilots etc Its been 5 years after the coup attempt I have several pilots friends in the 152. fleet after 2016 everything got on Its track again there no bullshit as no pilots lets not forget greeks also claim We use pakistani pilots :dd.