India HAL Tejas Program

Gessler

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Spitfire9

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Does anyone know if the original afterburner version of Kaveri is slated for revival? With 200+ Tejas of both types likely to be in IAF service, 200+ engines should be needed for through life engine replacements. What about the 'Marut' trainer, too?

I believe that SAFRAN sorted the vibration and screech problems on the Kaveri, so what stops Kaveri being turned into a GE F404 alternative for application to suitable Indian aircraft?
 

Nilgiri

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Does anyone know if the original afterburner version of Kaveri is slated for revival? With 200+ Tejas of both types likely to be in IAF service, 200+ engines should be needed for through life engine replacements. What about the 'Marut' trainer, too?

I believe that SAFRAN sorted the vibration and screech problems on the Kaveri, so what stops Kaveri being turned into a GE F404 alternative for application to suitable Indian aircraft?

Yes, coincidentally as you wrote that, this got posted just earlier:

 

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Does that imply that GTRE has achieved 80kN reliably with an afterburner?

Don't think so. This industrial cooperation is probably going to involve some feedback from the GE, Safran and RR ecosystem developing.

We have to see how this latest effort progresses in the 2 year timeframe mentioned here.
 

Spitfire9

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What is an 'EoL', please. Is GTRE inviting Indian companies to bid for a contract to make blades + vane assemblies already designed?
 

Nilgiri

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What is an 'EoL', please. Is GTRE inviting Indian companies to bid for a contract to make blades + vane assemblies already designed?

Expression of interest, i.e getting price quotes etc

Yes its production of design already frozen since this is the LPT stuff....and a number of companies (PTC, Midhani) have invested in forging and other capital machinery from safran et al.

HPT and afterburner etc we will have to give some time to see where those stand.

This conduit in progressing the Kaveri is a necessary hedging, to see and test what secure domestic supply chain can do at this juncture.
 

Spitfire9

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Expression of interest, i.e getting price quotes etc

Yes its production of design already frozen since this is the cold section stuff....and a number of companies (PTC, Midhani) have invested in forging and other capital machinery from safran et al.

Hot section and afterburner etc we will have to give some time to see where those stand.

This conduit in progressing the Kaveri is a necessary hedging, to see and test what secure domestic supply chain can do at this juncture.
My bad - I thought you wrote EOL.

How long will deliberation of quotes take? Any reason not to start work now on getting the afterburner design frozen and tested?
 

Nilgiri

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My bad - I thought you wrote EOL.

How long will deliberation of quotes take? Any reason not to start work now on getting the afterburner design frozen and tested?

We will have to see. Only folks with detailed inside knowledge of the project situation would know the answer to the latter.... how much of a role it played in stalling the maturation of first Kaveri with the below par test results. Likely the whole hot section is a subpar result currently, the afterburner can only work with what it receives (afterburners themselves are not so complicated).
 

Spitfire9

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We will have to see. Only folks with detailed inside knowledge of the project situation would know the answer to the latter.... how much of a role it played in stalling the maturation of first Kaveri with the below par test results. Likely the whole hot section is a subpar result currently, the afterburner can only work with what it receives (afterburners themselves are not so complicated).
Interesting.

RR spends more than a billion US dollars a year on R&D and development. As far as I know GTRE has spent less than half a billion US dollars on Kaveri over 25+ years. Unless GTRE tries a lot harder and better, I will not be surprised if an afterburning 80kN Kaveri is quietly shelved in the next few years. Not a problem unless US decides to block F404 supplies. Then India will be stuffed. That situation should be avoidable.

India is considering paying at least 5 billion USD to develop an engine for AMCA. Does GOI not consider it worthwhile to invest 2%-5% of that (my guess) to get a viable, indigenous engine for Tejas finished? OK, admittedly India needs to have developed the know how to do that or will be forced to buy it in (which would add a lot to the cost).
 
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Nilgiri

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RR spends more than a billion US dollars a year on R&D and development. As far as I know GTRE has spent less than half a billion US dollars on Kaveri over 25+ years.

That's apples and oranges. That's like comparing NASA or SpaceX with ISRO and saying ISRO doesnt spend enough (when obviously ISRO has produced results)...especially in USD conversions. Especially given RR massive commercial arm, not to mention IP acquisition budget from university research (that are not included in govt run RnD budget in most developing countries).

If you have RR specific military turbofan lab RnD spend and add to GTRE all it acquires from research pool outside of it at nominal cost compared to RR....and do the same for say China and Russia, we might start to get something to compare. But these numbers are not ever clearly delineated by anyone.

Throwing money at some problems isn't going to solve them. If your top human capital in materials research is used in ballistic missiles, nuclear engineering and space for example (as these have been prioritised for decades given the nuclear deterrent needed), its a supply constraint to what you can do with other material research intensive study. Till you can grow this more and take on more and then allocate and fund more.


India is considering paying at least 5 billion USD to develop an engine for AMCA. Does GOI not consider it worthwhile to invest 2%-5% of that (my guess) to get a viable, indigenous engine for Tejas finished? OK, admittedly India needs to have developed the know how to do that or will be forced to buy it in (which would add a lot to the cost).

Lot of that budget is capital outlay. The literal machinery and training needed to produce engines in serial production. So again you are comparing very glaringly different things. How can this money be allocted to Kaveri if there's nothing to serially produce yet (unlike say the GE 414)? The feedback flow from serial production into the Kaveri is a route India will harness, so there is benefit to the Kaveri from the AMCA engine program.

You can do search in the Turkish propulsion thread with "GE" search string. I've been over all of this there with their similar efforts.
 

fulcrum.

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That's apples and oranges. That's like comparing NASA or SpaceX with ISRO and saying ISRO doesnt spend enough (when obviously ISRO has produced results)...especially in USD conversions. Especially given RR massive commercial arm, not to mention IP acquisition budget from university research (that are not included in govt run RnD budget in most developing countries).

If you have RR specific military turbofan lab RnD spend and add to GTRE all it acquires from research pool outside of it at nominal cost compared to RR....and do the same for say China and Russia, we might start to get something to compare. But these numbers are not ever clearly delineated by anyone.

Throwing money at some problems isn't going to solve them. If your top human capital in materials research is used in ballistic missiles, nuclear engineering and space for example (as these have been prioritised for decades given the nuclear deterrent needed), its a supply constraint to what you can do with other material research intensive study. Till you can grow this more and take on more and then allocate and fund more.




Lot of that budget is capital outlay. The literal machinery and training needed to produce engines in serial production. So again you are comparing very glaringly different things. How can this money be allocted to Kaveri if there's nothing to serially produce yet (unlike say the GE 414)? The feedback flow from serial production into the Kaveri is a route India will harness, so there is benefit to the Kaveri from the AMCA engine program.

You can do search in the Turkish propulsion thread with "GE" search string. I've been over all of this there with their similar efforts.
Hey buddy I'm new here just wanna know what is mtow of Tejas I was arguing with a guy it's 14.3 tons now they say it's 13.5 tons..
And Tejas mk1 weight 7070kg whereas Tejas mk1a is reduced to 6560kg now so it's mtow will increase ?
 

Nilgiri

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Hey buddy I'm new here just wanna know what is mtow of Tejas I was arguing with a guy it's 14.3 tons now they say it's 13.5 tons..
And Tejas mk1 weight 7070kg whereas Tejas mk1a is reduced to 6560kg now so it's mtow will increase ?

I think the MTOW is 13.5 ton for both versions once the GE-404 was confirmed (Kaveri is bit higher weight and had thrust objectives slightly higher than the 404, so some so some earlier higher MTOW numbers exist).

Empty weight reduction will have no effect on MTOW as long as the aircraft physical geometry stays the same and powerplant stays the same. Just the useful payload range increases....and the T/W slightly for each payload amount.
 

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Three Mk1A sales prospects have surfaced recently...

Argentina, which selected used F-16 for its next fighter, appears to have revived its interest in Tejas Mk1A (according to idrw.com). If true - idrw.com reports often prove to be untrue - there is a very outside chance of Argentina ordering. The problem is that British content (ejection seat, refuelling probe, radar radome) will need to be replaced and the cost and delay in doing so makes the proposition look impractical and uneconomic to me.

Philippines ordered the Brahmos missile and is keen on buying it for use by the air force for the marine strike role. Given that it is integrated on Tejas Mk1A, Mk1A is of interest. Whether the PAF would accept the set up, training and infrastructure costs to support a sub-fleet of dozen Mk1A simply to obtain access to air-launched Brahmos is questionable.

Armenia is looking to boost its defences and is reported to be interested in Tejas Mk1A.


Could Armenia rely on HAL delivering Mk1A on time?
 
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