India HAL Tejas Program

E

ekemenirtu

Guest
Yes it does
Infact now it is setting up new unit for manufacturing,designing of more advanced one's

Although the instruction set is open source and of foreign origin, it is still better than complete reliance on imports.

However, these microprocessors are a few generations behind the most modern microprocessors and may not be suited for aviation or aerospace projects.

SCL, at Chandigarh, India also does not offer the most advanced technology nodes for logic chips, for understandable reasons, to its customers. Its yield is not expected to be of acceptable standards either.

An improvement from the past, certainly, but inadequate for modern consumers and possibly, also for aerospace applications.
 

Raptor

Contributor
Messages
534
Reactions
646
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
India lacks manufacturing
Although the instruction set is open source and of foreign origin, it is still better than complete reliance on imports.

However, these microprocessors are a few generations behind the most modern microprocessors and may not be suited for aviation or aerospace projects.

SCL, at Chandigarh, India also does not offer the most advanced technology nodes for logic chips, for understandable reasons, to its customers. Its yield is not expected to be of acceptable standards either.

An improvement from the past, certainly, but inadequate for modern consumers and possibly, also for aerospace applications.
The news is old though
India designs some good chips but can't mass produce them due to lack of investments
Anyways we're derailing the thread
 
E

ekemenirtu

Guest
India lacks manufacturing

The news is old though
India designs some good chips but can't mass produce them due to lack of investments
Anyways we're derailing the thread

Discussions on microprocessors, other ICs or other components that go into a fighter aircraft are relevant.

There is not probably an adequate number of high quality, well trained, highly skilled individuals in wafer fabrication within the territory of India. That might be the bottleneck.

Of course, India also lags behind in semiconductor equipment industry and as you might notice, in such industries as Hard disk drives, aerospace industry, precision engineering, medical technologies, oil and gas equipment industries and many other knowledge intensive sectors, but they are indeed worth discussing in other threads.

The article does not explain well why the author considers Indian chip design capabilities as "good".

Is there any reason to believe that Indian chip design capabilities are "good"?

The only convincing reason for the lack of semiconductor IC foundries in India is lack of an adequate number of highly trained, highly skilled individuals able to manufacture them.

Size is not a constraint. India has more people than any other country outside China and any other continent outside Asia.

Cost is not a constraint as Indian land and labour costs are considerably lower than even the ubiquitous "cheap labour" that China is associated with. Hence, Indian land and labour costs are lower than their Japanese, American, Taiwanese or Korean counterparts by an even greater degree.

The only logical explanation is lack of well trained, highly skilled workforce in this sector.

As I have explained before, many countries purchase commercial off the shelf (COTS) components and pass them off as 'indigenous'. India is not likely to be an exception.

The deficiency, contrary to a popular myth, is certainly not limited 'only' to aeroengines.
 

Raptor

Contributor
Messages
534
Reactions
646
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
Discussions on microprocessors, other ICs or other components that go into a fighter aircraft are relevant.

There is not probably an adequate number of high quality, well trained, highly skilled individuals in wafer fabrication within the territory of India. That might be the bottleneck.

Of course, India also lags behind in semiconductor equipment industry and as you might notice, in such industries as Hard disk drives, aerospace industry, precision engineering, medical technologies, oil and gas equipment industries and many other knowledge intensive sectors, but they are indeed worth discussing in other threads.

The article does not explain well why the author considers Indian chip design capabilities as "good".

Is there any reason to believe that Indian chip design capabilities are "good"?

The only convincing reason for the lack of semiconductor IC foundries in India is lack of an adequate number of highly trained, highly skilled individuals able to manufacture them.

Size is not a constraint. India has more people than any other country outside China and any other continent outside Asia.

Cost is not a constraint as Indian land and labour costs are considerably lower than even the ubiquitous "cheap labour" that China is associated with. Hence, Indian land and labour costs are lower than their Japanese, American, Taiwanese or Korean counterparts by an even greater degree.

The only logical explanation is lack of well trained, highly skilled workforce in this sector.

As I have explained before, many countries purchase commercial off the shelf (COTS) components and pass them off as 'indigenous'. India is not likely to be an exception.

The deficiency, contrary to a popular myth, is certainly not limited 'only' to aeroengines.
Eh?
In tejas aircraft the SC won't be that powerful but still would be Indian made,designed and developed in India.
So we can make conclusions that India is definitely an exclusion.
The onboard microprocessors in tejas aircrafts are definitely indigenous.
 

Raptor

Contributor
Messages
534
Reactions
646
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
"The cockpit has two 76mm × 76mm colour liquid crystal multifunction displays developed by Bharat Electronics, a head-up display developed by the government-owned Central Scientific Instruments Organisation (CSIO) in Chandigarh, and a liquid crystal return-to-home-base panel and keyboard."
Tejas has MFDs also developed in India
 

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,771
Reactions
119 19,804
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
Following posts and tweet chains etc may be relevant to read (116 - 118):

 
E

ekemenirtu

Guest
"The cockpit has two 76mm × 76mm colour liquid crystal multifunction displays developed by Bharat Electronics, a head-up display developed by the government-owned Central Scientific Instruments Organisation (CSIO) in Chandigarh, and a liquid crystal return-to-home-base panel and keyboard."
Tejas has MFDs also developed in India

Does BEL or CSIO operate any display fab?

If not, they join the ranks of the great countries of Nigeria, Kenya, Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Algeria, Morocco, Egypt, Iran, Turkey, South Africa and Romania with the ability to "develop" displays that are fabricated elsewhere.

It is the industrial "minnows" of China, Japan, Korea and Taiwan - primarily - that fabricate those displays used in all sorts of consumer devices such as mobile phones, tablet computers, desktop and laptop computers or for use in industrial or defence applications.

An example from Nigeria

An example from Kenya

Multiple similar examples could be provided for each of the listed countries and for many others not listed above.

In the absence of a commercial wafer fab or a commercial display fab, the only conclusion that can be made is that semiconductor IC products or displays or other avionics used in this aircraft were sourced from abroad. Out of necessity.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
E

ekemenirtu

Guest
Eh?
In tejas aircraft the SC won't be that powerful but still would be Indian made,designed and developed in India.
So we can make conclusions that India is definitely an exclusion.
The onboard microprocessors in tejas aircrafts are definitely indigenous.

If the instruction set architecture (RISC-V) is open source and of foreign origin, it would be incorrect to call the designed microprocessor Indian.

If the fabrication process is outdated by multiple generations, or on the order of decades, it would be incorrect to assume the microprocessor is suitable for defence or other applications.

If the fab yield remains subpar and the IC not rated for aerospace or military applications, then the problems would only be compounded further.

ICs in aerospace or military applications would require certifications from relevant bodies to ensure they are able to withstand the required accelerations (high G's), temperatures, pressures and/or radiation (that might negatively impact the performance of the fabricated chip).

SCL is able to only generate pilot runs, which are extremely unlikely to meet domestic demands for commercial, defence or industrial purposes.

SCL, for example, has a 6-inch wafer fabrication facility, capable of processing wafers in 0.8-micron technology. These facilities are primarily used by these companies for pilot production runs of chips they design.

Although the article is rather old (from 2004) and expressed undue optimism, when we look at reality, fabrication for commercial purposes or mass production can hardly be compared to pilot runs (where lower quality, reliability and yields are of lesser concern and where aerospace/defence grade IC certification may not be considered the utmost priority).
 

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,771
Reactions
119 19,804
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
Does BEL or CSIO operate any display fab?

Sticking to production side purely, I dont know anything about CSIO. But BEL does.

There is lot of correct stuff you have said in your replies about the failure in India (give size and potential) regarding commercial scaling for VLSI and electronics in general.

That makes a large conversation to have, especially the lost decades of 1995 - 2015 roughly (and amends being made are still slow and early).

However this does not mean BEL and certain SOE/PSU did not acquire the capital involved over a number of decades partnering providers like Philips (for semicon side) and Thales/Thomson (display units and many other things). Lot of this dates back a long time but there has also been update as required here.

BEL (like ISRO) is very much making (outdated + uncompetitive for commercial sector side for sure) certain military/space grade semiconductor, processors, IC, PCB...all of it in house as far as I am aware. This is due to cost not being a bottom line here, rather in house security, control and assured reliability for specific application in these crucial areas for the Indian military and high end scientific research + application.

The story of why this has not been used to commercialise (past some very niche things so far) w.r.t the lost 2 decades (or at any big pace in the current span of recent 5 years or so) needs unpacking of the capital sink intensity China+East Asia complex has achieved there (and the RnD flow downroad achieved from the gestation) and the opportunity costs regarding this (w.r.t India in the same period of time and currently).

Having had uncle that worked at BEL (retired now) and my own dad making his career at Motorola (and been a guy that visited PRC in the early-mid 90s a number of times regarding that work, specifically Tianjin).... I could go into quite some detail. But maybe another time.

@Gautam and @Rajaraja Chola and @Joe Shearer among others may be able to add some more from their respective ends
 

Indos

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
1,219
Reactions
1,537
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
That's the AMCA but it's an airforce version. There's no N-AMCA as of now

Refer to this for more details on AMCA

Why dont just scrap the program and build N-AMCA ? Those are twin engine and China has also built their Naval variant of J 31. Isn't it redundant ?
 

Paro

Well-known member
Messages
368
Reactions
538
Nation of residence
India
I don’t get how they plan on managing so many programs. Tejas mark 1, mark 2, Orca, Tedbf, amca.
 

Raptor

Contributor
Messages
534
Reactions
646
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
Why dont just scrap the program and build N-AMCA ? Those are twin engine and China has also built their Naval variant of J 31. Isn't it redundant ?
Maintaining a naval AMCA would be costly and availability rate would be very less
IN wants a combat ready aircraft for operations and not an aircraft whose availability rate is very less which could be bad during real time war scenario
 

Zapper

Experienced member
India Correspondent
Messages
1,719
Reactions
10 943
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
India
Why dont just scrap the program and build N-AMCA ? Those are twin engine and China has also built their Naval variant of J 31. Isn't it redundant ?
IN wanted something with a really long range and endurance which is exactly why they didn't go for N-LCA.

IN was given the option of TEDBF (which is more like a larger twin engine variant of the MWF) which could be inducted in 10 years or wait for an N-AMCA in 15+ years. They ended up going for the former. AMCA requires time to mature given a ton of new tech is being developed while TEDBF will use tech developed as part of the LCA program.

Also, 4th gen fighters aren't going no where. Boeing just introduced their F-15EX and US is buying a ton of em despite having an active F-35 induction program

1611641370327.png
 

Zapper

Experienced member
India Correspondent
Messages
1,719
Reactions
10 943
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
India
I don’t get how they plan on managing so many programs. Tejas mark 1, mark 2, Orca, Tedbf, amca.
ORCA doesn't exist. It's just some unofficial render by HAL

If you see the recent ADA interview series by Ananth Krishnan, LCA-Mk1/Mk-1A, MWF and TEDBF have a lot of commonality not just in design but sub-systems as well which is why they're expecting to reduce the development time. AMCA is entirely different though
 

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,771
Reactions
119 19,804
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
Why dont just scrap the program and build N-AMCA ? Those are twin engine and China has also built their Naval variant of J 31. Isn't it redundant ?

Because of one big issue: Mig-29K. This is what was/is pushing the rafale-M and SH requirement (along with 2nd carrier need dawning) .

They (Migs) are not faring well in operational readiness (and this can hold up or compromise desired schedule/operation of the air craft carrier as a whole at times)...nowhere near what was projected/promised anyway.

This is long story that basically stems from what the original Mig-29s were designed for (and ad-hoc converted to navalised design in the 90s after USSR collapse).

Skipping to N-AMCA would not solve this crucial window that Mig -29 sortie rate ("Attrition" on its effective availability) will soon open up given time to develop such platform like that...unless they go say for foreign import and soon.

But they want to try use/scale the LCA developed technology as much as they can for this....since the original scale of production run for just strict Mig-21 replacement by way of one mass produced variant (many 100's) will not happen...so there is goal to spread laterally to achieve the economy of scale for the current ecosystem generation in the interim anyway...and the argument is it can be done expediently too given you don't have to reinvent the wheel on lot of things like say with starting a program from zero.

I don’t get how they plan on managing so many programs. Tejas mark 1, mark 2, Orca, Tedbf, amca.

Let us treat mark 1 and mark1A as one category.....and mark 2 and tedbf as another category.

Skip ORCA, I think thats just going to be subsumed by the 2nd category now.

AMCA is 3rd category but generation higher and still needs lot of development, so lets ignore that for the immediate production planning.

So lets argue effectively two variant streams for purposes of this production analysis. (Mark 1/A) and (Mark 2/TEDBF)

It will definitely be quite difficult (especially considering Indian defence industry problems with project mgmt. and production lines in PSU's to begin with).

But putting that aside (for sake of argument to get into it further), they will have to map out and organise (time wise and then cost wise) all the critical components, regular components, testing + cert schedules for these, and the larger different jig assemblies for both (and other things that will vary).

Some of this can overlap and double dip etc...others will be fully segregated (w.r.t capacity, resources and time use)...they will need to map out, organise, rationalise and discipline the work flow for all of this.

Some good news is lot of suppliers are outside of HAL, so I would imagine they (defence MSME etc) already know how and what they need to do/invest to scale production quickly once the numbers + overall HAL production line demand are confirmed. i.e lets simplify that they just need the commitment +funds to do their end.

But I think HAL would definitely have to acquire at least twice or maybe 3 times the jig assembly spaces, tooling and requisite capital machinery needed for that along with commensurate workforce hiring and training...given what I have seen in aerospace production runs (early on ramping) w.r.t critical backlog pressures (so you have enough spread laterally to do other stuff while those teeth out). Maybe about twice the number of testing capacity too.

All of these have to be modelled w.r.t the most critical time sensitive elements in each system...and also run a discrete math pathway modelling (essentially an optimised algorithm) to stress test this (beforehand) to find both optimal and also the highest sensitivitities in the process flow (and put extra redundancy+capacity in those places).

I'm unsure how the handoff formalities are done w.r.t IAF if there is any potential for further gumming up there.

This is why we need to get past HAL ASAP as the only assembler for these aircraft projects.

A Large private conglomerate (or better yet 2 set to compete with each other) will simply hire consultants (and project management specialists) as required to do this fast (and keep on retainer for any mid course correction issues that arise).

That stands in stark contrast to a PSU engineer (like my dad saw firsthand) having to always wonder which PSU "we get paid more if we use up more time" babu toes are going to be trod upon by pushing boldly for rationalised streamlining and optimisation.

Maybe HAL has gotten better now (some fresh blood and pragmatic dynamism etc), I guess fingers crossed and lets see?

If same ole same ole instead, then its something like getting a sedentary couch potato to go run a marathon all of a sudden....that artery clogging is not gonna be good.

Natasha is generally forlorn from all of this these days, but Faye or Amy will be quick to work their proven charms to fill in the inability of India to ramp things its put in time and effort for...as always because of that PSU assembly addiction.

Part of me definitely wants to see some notable S-400 based sanctions from Amy arrive...it puts that much more whipping pressure (like china border tensions kind of did) to get this all more ship-shape...and there is promising economy of scale already offered on the table from Faye if we have to choose that instead...and skip to AMCA straight (hopefully with private companies introduced into assembling for both of these routes).

i.e with Amy out of picture (due to grampa Biden fake drama with Natasha), it gives less scope for babus to dither and waste time hmm-hawwing and paper recycling (of the most disturbing useless kind) as usual (the scope will still be there, it will just be less). I'm all for that as silver lining (for what will befall other things I thought looked promising).

But let's see.

@Vergennes @Kartal1 @Madokafc @#comcom @Milspec @anmdt @Sinan @Cabatli_53 @Webslave @T-123456 @Gautam @Milspec @Test7 @Saithan et al.
 
Last edited:

Saithan

Experienced member
Denmark Correspondent
Messages
8,641
Reactions
37 19,752
Nation of residence
Denmark
Nation of origin
Turkey
Sounds like us educational books, paid per page written/printed, luckily we got compendiums.

But if you got peoblems with HAL wouldn’t overhauling it bot solve the problem, of course you’d have to swap out the entire management if they’re all of the old mentality.
 

Paro

Well-known member
Messages
368
Reactions
538
Nation of residence
India
But if you got peoblems with HAL wouldn’t overhauling it bot solve the problem, of course you’d have to swap out the entire management if they’re all of the old mentality.
I prefer Gov getting in a private consultant to cut the loose ends and straighten the process. BAH does similar work for the US military industrial complex.
 
Last edited:

Saithan

Experienced member
Denmark Correspondent
Messages
8,641
Reactions
37 19,752
Nation of residence
Denmark
Nation of origin
Turkey
I prefer Gov getting in a private consulting to cut the loose ends and straighten the process. BAH does similar work for the US military industrial complex.

That is also an option, but you’d need a decent consulting group to wring efficiency out of existing culture.
 

Zapper

Experienced member
India Correspondent
Messages
1,719
Reactions
10 943
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
India
I prefer Gov getting in a private consulting to cut the loose ends and straighten the process. BAH does similar work for the US military industrial complex.
If you ever worked or interned in a PSU, you wouldn't be saying that since you'd know that's just not possible. These PSU sloths have god complex. No wonder they're protesting against privatization since they'd end up working their arse off or their incompetency would be exposed...no more chai-biscut culture
 

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,771
Reactions
119 19,804
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
.

"Next year august LCA mk2 will roll out"...lot of other details in this video.

Will archive/organise ~early feb... into two broad threads (mk1/A and mk2/tedbf)...will have dedicated AMCA thread too (and I will split off the stealth drones to larger drone thread I think)

Any input on this organisation for subforum will be welcome.
 

Follow us on social media

Top Bottom