How A Poor Child With A Dead Rooster Exposes The Centers Of Power

VCheng

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
488
Reactions
535
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
Pakistan
FUNDS!! that is the word and WILL. We need these two things and the situation can still be salvaged but it wont. Its far easier to blame India or Afghanistan or US or Israel than to accept that we are incompetent and dont care if people die of thirst.

Can I blame you of cruelty now? :D

Edit:

On a serious note, we can all point the blame at our favorite targets, but whose responsibility is it to begin solving the problem? Right now?
 
Last edited:

VCheng

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
488
Reactions
535
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
Pakistan
Mmm at the point of sounding facetious may I suggest your indulging in "whataboutery"?

Not anymore than @T-123456 actually, and only because he did it first in this thread (see above) and only as a joke. The rest of my post has a serious question in it.
 

TR_123456

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
4,771
Reactions
11,704
Nation of residence
Nethelands
Nation of origin
Turkey
Mmm at the point of sounding facetious may I suggest your indulging in "whataboutery"?
You both see it as it is,realisticly.
Both have a way of putting it,VCheng with dry humor and you with positive/negative.
I use both on occasian but all three of us see reality.
@Saiyan0321 is the only one trying to make the best of it.
 

VCheng

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
488
Reactions
535
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
Pakistan
You both see it as it is,realisticly.
Both have a way of putting it,VCheng with dry humor and you with positive/negative.
I use both on occasian but all three of us see reality.
@Saiyan0321 is the only one trying to make the best of it.

It will be interesting to see how many will try to deflect blame compared to those who would look at the responsibility of implementing a meaningful solution to the problem. Quite telling in fact.


(I do know my people! :D )
 

TR_123456

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
4,771
Reactions
11,704
Nation of residence
Nethelands
Nation of origin
Turkey
It will be interesting to see how many will try to deflect blame compared to those who would look at the responsibility of implementing a meaningful solution to the problem. Quite telling in fact.


(I do know my people! :D )
None of them are here yet but they will come.
They dont trust it yet. ;) ;) ;)
 

Kaptaan

Experienced member
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
1,734
Reactions
4,071
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Pakistan
The structural reason underlying everything in Pakistan is the catastrophic failure of the idea of Islam as a identity. It might have sounded great back in British Raj to curry support amongst the masses but for such a facile idea to be then imprinted into the DNA of the newly indpendent Pakistan in 1950 as Objectives Resolution was nothing short of a crime to the peoples of the Indus Valley. For the Turks Anatolia is analogous to Turkey as Indus Valley is to Pakistan. Both geographies are the foundation on which these states are anchored.

That this idea was flawed and was exploded in war of 1971 when the Banglas left. They were Muslim. Why were they leaving other Muslims? That demonstrated the flawed idea of Muslim identity. I mean there are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world and over 40 nation states. If Muslim identity carried any pull worth building countries on surely there should only be one Muslim superstate or MUSLIMSTAN. But we know that is not the case as the idea is preposterous as one united Christiandom.

However within Pakistan itself a slow motion explosion is taking place with similiar underlying dynamic as the Bangla fiasco. To explain let me give the historical background. The British Raj was a vast array of peoples bundled in provinces, states etc. It included places as disparate as Burma, Trucial States [modern UAE], Aden [modern Yemen], Straits settlements [modern Singapore]. The only common denominator in this huge galaxy was they all had been conquered by the British at some time or other and banded into their "Raj" or rule. To begin with there is a assumption that what became known as India across the world existed as a entity. It did not anymore then Europe, Asia or Africa did. A map of South Asia at the dawn of British conquests exposes this fact. The region on north west [on the map the strip on the left covered by then what was the Durrani Empire], Nawab of Sindh and various khanates on the west of Sindh today is Pakistan. In fact you can see the outline of Pakistan there. The various states and kingdoms in the middle portion are India today with portion of Nawab of Bengal being modern Bangladesh


1600983430705.png


In 1843 the British attacked Sindh and conquered it making it part of British India. By 1849 the British conquered Punjab which had in the past been part of the Durrani Emipre [Afghan]. Thus by 1849 what is now Pakistan was enslaved by the British and banded into 'India'. Point to note here is India was made by British firepower. Sindh and Punjab were conquerd and forced into British India in late 1840s. By 1860 this is what British India looked like with it's hotch potch of provinces and peoples which includes todays [from east] Myanmar [Burma], Bangladesh, India and Pakistan first ran from Calcutta [today Kolkata] but power was moved to new city built by British called NEW Delhi in 1920s.

1600983390712.png


By 1930s it was obvious that British would leave the sub-continent. The Muslim population in the British Raj was not evenly spread. Majority of the Pakhtuns, Punjabis, Sindhi's, Baloch, Kashmiri [these ethnic groups would to to form the acronym PAKSTAN] of the north west strip were Muslim and make the solid green on the left of the map below. The green blob with Muslim majority on the right today is Bangladesh.


1600984824258.png



However in the vast region in the middle with population greater than all of Europe [which today is India] was dominated by Hindu religion. But within this region which itself was made of differant ethnic groups there was significant Muslim minority which today numbers 150 million out of the 1.4 billion population of India. This minority was made of ethnic group intrinsic to India. That is majority were native Indian ethnic groups who had converted to Islam.


1600985310837.png



So far example majority of ethnic Bihari's from Bihar were Hindu but there was Bihari Muslim minority also. They were same ethnic group, spoke same languages, same culture but differantiated by religion. Ditto for other parts of India like Madras, Mysore etc. These elites in these minority Muslim provinces of India were alarmed at prospect of British leaving as that would leave them at mercy of majority Hindu state. It is bizzare that it was this minority that voted strongly for Muslim League whereas the ethnic groups that form Pakistan today [the strong green strip on left] kept a very relaxed attitude until just before the Britrish left.

The question was how to protect the minority Muslims in what is now India is what drove ML. They could not have a country as they were spread thinly across the vast scape of India. The solution ML went for was have constitutional protection in what would be loose confederation of three regions. This was being disacussed as late as 1946. The British supported this idea. Jinnah agreed to what was called the Cabinet Mission Plan. However Congress under Nehru refused.

This left the only option which was to let the majority Muslim provinces set up their own federation called Pakistan. All this happened in the run to 1947 within a very short time frame. However this would leave vast number of Muslims within India. As 14th August approached millions of refugees began to move, This had not been part of any plan and the authorities were caught off guard. There was lot of killing which created waves of refugees.

This brings us back to events of 104 years earlier when Sindh had been conquered and it's ruling Mirs [royalEmirs] wiped out by British. It then had been annexed into British India as Province of Sindh with Karachi as it's capital. By 1940 Sindh elected assembly had voted to federate into Pakistan. Please see Sindh [red on map] within British India.


1600986763902.png



In 1947 Karachi became capital of Pakistan. However unexpectedly millions of refugees [migrants or Mohajirs] arrived from India. Most were Indian ethnic groups such as Biharis, Utter Pradeshi's, Gujrati's, Bangalis etc etc. They made home in a province that was Sindhi. The Sindhi's spoke Sindhi language and have a history going back 1,000s of years. Within a year capital of Sindh went from a Sindhi city to being Indian Muslim migrant [Mohajir majority].

This would be like Turkey recieving so many Arabs migrants [albeit Muslim] that Istanbul becomes Arab majority and Turks become a tiny minority. Map of Sindh with Karachi. Majority of rural Sindh remained Sindhi dominant however the largest citiy Karachi became Indian Muslim migrant [Mohajir] dominant.


1600987323899.png


In theory all of Sindh was Muslim [or nearly 97%] so if Muslim identity really was potent then everything should have worked out nicely. But no that was not the case. The Mohajirs from India did NOT fuse with the native Sindhi's to form a amalgam. As decades passed in fact both groups gravitated toward distinct ethnic poles. One Mohajir mostly living in urban Karachi city and other native Sindhi living in rural districts. The Indian Mohajirs dominated Karachi but in Sindh as a whole the native Sindhi's still were dominant. This would be like Arabs migrants dominating Istanbul and Izmir but rest of Turkey is still Turk dominant.

Over time these two distinct groups [native Sindhi Muslim as opposed to Indian Muslim migrants] would cluster around two differant political parties. The Mohajirs formed their own Mohajir Quami Movement [Migrant Nation Movement] whereas native Sindhi's formed around the Pakistan Peoples Party [PPP] of the Bhutto dynasty who are ethnic Sindhi's.

The rivalry and at times near civil war between these two groups in Sindh [MQM versus PPP] has destroyed Sindh and turned Karachi into a city with global notoriety. As a sideline Karachi recieved millions of illegal refugees from Afghanistan, Myanmar [Rohingya] and almost every troubled country with 2,000 miles.

The city turned into ethnic ghettos with civil war conditions. With each ghetto voting according to ethnic affiliation. This has laid threadbare the notion of Muslim identity. And is cause of most of the problems of Karachi and Sindh. There simply is no solution that the Pakistani state can implement given the realities and resources it has available. It be noted that Karach is like the front door to the world for all of Pakistan. It is the natural geographic outlet of the entire Indus Basin. The chaos in Karachi cripples all of Pakistan. Imagine what effect Istabul's demise would have on Turkey?

In part 2, I will develop on this. This is abstract of a thread I will write when I get time. This allows me space to refine and develop ideas.


1600988359228.png
 

VCheng

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
488
Reactions
535
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
Pakistan
It then had been annexed into British India as Province of Sindh with Karachi as it's capital.

Incorrect. Sindh was part of the Bombay Presidency (taken over by the Crown as part of the East India Company Act of 1784) from its annexation in 1843 till 1935. It was the Government of India Act of 1935 that created a separate province of SIndh with Karachi as its capital only from 1936 till 1947.
 

Saithan

Experienced member
Denmark Correspondent
Messages
8,161
Reactions
21 18,782
Nation of residence
Denmark
Nation of origin
Turkey

I think perhaps given turks free reign to solve the clean water issue would be best option. Considering we've had our GAP project. We got the organization in place for this.


I am sure with the current mindset of the turkish government many pakistani may have to move, but the water would reach all corners of Pakistan.
 

VCheng

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
488
Reactions
535
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
Pakistan
I think perhaps given turks free reign to solve the clean water issue would be best option. Considering we've had our GAP project. We got the organization in place for this.

Four plants each producing about 2,000 liters per hour are going to serve one million people. At what cost can this be scaled up to provide water to the tens upon tens of millions of people?
 
Last edited:

Saithan

Experienced member
Denmark Correspondent
Messages
8,161
Reactions
21 18,782
Nation of residence
Denmark
Nation of origin
Turkey
Four plants each producing about 2,000 liters per hour are going to serve one million people. At what cost can this be scaled up to provide water to the tens upon tens of millions of people?

My impression of the article was that it was an emergency solution to help alleviate the immediate water problem in that area.

Such stopgap solutions are needed until a massive project like GAP is been being implemented.

It's not going to be easy as Pakistan is quite a large nation, but it is necessary to crawl towards that lasting solution.
 

VCheng

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
488
Reactions
535
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
Pakistan
My impression of the article was that it was an emergency solution to help alleviate the immediate water problem in that area.

Such stopgap solutions are needed until a massive project like GAP is been being implemented.

It's not going to be easy as Pakistan is quite a large nation, but it is necessary to crawl towards that lasting solution.

Such stopgap measures stop soon after the media blitz fades and there are no ongoing funds to keep the projects running. Soon the situation is back to its usual deteriorating trends. This will likely not be any different.
 

Saithan

Experienced member
Denmark Correspondent
Messages
8,161
Reactions
21 18,782
Nation of residence
Denmark
Nation of origin
Turkey
Such stopgap measures stop soon after the media blitz fades and there are no ongoing funds to keep the projects running. Soon the situation is back to its usual deteriorating trends. This will likely not be any different.

Well I hope you are wrong. But it is an undeniable truth that until a lasting solution is found media coverage is necessary to keep focus on the problem.

Downside is that Pakistan has too many problems to be able to deal with it by it self. And not enough money to go around.

However I hope that Turkey and the right organizations will continue working towards a lasting solution even if there are no media coverage.



But I think dam projects, water reservoir projects and such are necessary to truly make a difference on national level. When it rain, it pours and Pakistan has floods, but when it's dry, it's really dry, and the waters flowing aren't utilized properly.

Hell making a watermill to scoop up some of the water that's carried by aquaducts to an artificial lake could probably work too.
 

VCheng

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
488
Reactions
535
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
Pakistan
Well I hope you are wrong. But it is an undeniable truth that until a lasting solution is found media coverage is necessary to keep focus on the problem.

Downside is that Pakistan has too many problems to be able to deal with it by it self. And not enough money to go around.

However I hope that Turkey and the right organizations will continue working towards a lasting solution even if there are no media coverage.



But I think dam projects, water reservoir projects and such are necessary to truly make a difference on national level. When it rain, it pours and Pakistan has floods, but when it's dry, it's really dry, and the waters flowing aren't utilized properly.

Hell making a watermill to scoop up some of the water that's carried by aquaducts to an artificial lake could probably work too.

Much of Pakistan's problems are solvable, no doubt. What is lacking is the will and the resources. In other words, Pakistan can make a great knife, if somebody gives it a blade and a handle.
 

Kaptaan

Experienced member
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
1,734
Reactions
4,071
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Pakistan
Incorrect. Sindh was part of the Bombay Presidency (taken over by the Crown as part of the East India Company Act of 1784) from its annexation in 1843 till 1935. It was the Government of India Act of 1935 that created a separate province of SIndh with Karachi as its capital only from 1936 till 1947.
Read below what I said about "abstract". Which means I excluded loads of events of no import to the over all dynamic. The important thing to note is -

  • Before British arrived with their "Make India" project and press ganged Sindh into the Raj, in this case Bombay Presidency] this area was a independant emirate.
  • the Sindhi's have their own history, their own language, their own culture.
This is abstract of a thread I will write when I get time. This allows me space to refine and develop ideas.

solutions
The point of my long post was to give the structural cause behind which you see such issues in Pakistan and particulary Sindh provice of which Karachi is capital. For any solution requires political will, leadership and mobilization of society who have to play their part. Nation building is a collective process. The problem in Sindh we have had near ethnic civil war. The native Sindhi's have dug in behind their PPP [party] headed by Bhutto family. The Indian migrant Mohajirs have rallied around the MQM [party]. There are other smaller groups but lets leave that for now and just look at the big players.

Sindh province has a elected provincial government. Most of rural seats are won by PPP [native Sindhi's] and most of the urban seats in Karachi by MQM [migrant Indians]. As the Sindh's despite massive migration by other groups still make up about 60% of the population mostly in rural Sindh. The Indian migrants make about 20% but almost all are in urban Karachi. This creates incredible instability. PPP typically win the provincial elections and make the government that rules from Karachi. But all the Karachi districts are won by Indian migrant MQM party.

This is recipe for chaos. The PPP rule is marked by neoptism, corruption and incompetence. I have spoken to Sindhi's to see why they keep voting for PPP. There are many reasons they mention but one of the major one is the Sindhi's feel threat to their identity and culture from the massive migration from India. Faced with this and seeing that they are a minority in their own capital [Karachi] they have developed a laager mentality and drawn back into the PPP camp. Good or bad they keep voting PPP as it is seen as 'their own'. Thus the Bhutto family keep coming back again and again.

Karachi city itself is dominated by Indian migrants and the MQM party. MQM was and still is a criminal gangster party that uses murder, extortion as policy. Karachi effectively was until recently held hostage by MQM mafia. Just like the mafia in USA nothing could move in Karachi without a slice or what they called "bhatta" being paid to MQM. Shops, taxis to shopping malls, industry was all held hostage and owners paid protection money. Imagine Istanbul be hostage to a Mafia party?

The leader of the MQM Altaf Hussain [which originaly stood for Migrant [Indian] Nation Party] had ran away [from murder charges] and was living in London. Despite facing criminal charges he ran MQM from London and would give speaches to his voters in Karachi via telephone. His mafia MQM have been winning Karachi elections for over 30 years. Just like Sindhi's have drawn around PPP the Indian migrants have drawn around the MQM mafia. Such was hold of MQM they could shut a city of 16 million with one instruction. Any shop owner that dare not listen would be at mercy of being murdered. When in 2014 UK police arrested Altaf Karachi went into lockdown.

1601038537322.png

Female supporters of Pakistan's Muttahida Quami Movement (MQM) political party, chant slogans to show solidarity with their leader Altaf Hussain in Karachi, Pakistan, June 4, 2014.

KARACHI, PAKISTAN - Pakistan's largest city was on lockdown for a second day on Wednesday, with shops and markets closed and people staying home for fear of violence following the arrest in London of one of the country's most feared men.



Because of Pakistan's elongated geography Karachi Port is the mouth of the "funnel" and a nation of 200 million exports and imports must go through it. There is no other option. The effect of a mafia party ruling Karachi has been disasterous. A good example is the 2012 Baldia factory fire where when the owners refused to pay $2.5 million in protection money to MQM it was burnt down with over 220 workers locked inside. When police began the investigationthe the city government was ran by MQM party and they effectively muzzled any police investigation. Only recently under the auspices of the paramilitary police have some of the culprits been imprisoned although the big fish are still free and indeed are in positions of power.

The don of the MQM mafia ~ Altaf Hussain.

1601039185203.png




This is a simplified rendition of the socio-political landscape of Sindh. Given these realities solutions are hard to find. The issue is NOT technical. Indeed Turkey could easily provide the technical, engineering solution but with the enivironmeny being as it is I can't see any such solution taking shape. As I said these are abstracts of a larger piece I will do on issues facing Pakistan. It's all well giving one liners. But we need to look at the "why" and what is behind that "why" and behind "that why" until you reach the underlyting dynamic informing the chaos you see.

But I do find it amusing when Pakistani's croak on about "Muslims" when the reality is few ethnic groups can't co-exist in Sindh.
 

Kaptaan

Experienced member
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
1,734
Reactions
4,071
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Pakistan
What can PM Imran Khan do? Not much. Under Pakistani constitution the federal government in Islamabad has limited powers to adress development issues. Most of these are with remit of provincial governments. Imran Khan's PTI holds federal government, Khyber Pakhtunwa Province and Punjab province. Sindh is held by PPP with MQM dominating Karachi.

Something to note here. Most parties in Pakistan are clustered around ethnic/provinces. So -

  • Imran Khans PTI was until recently mostly Pakhtun centred around Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province
  • Nawaz Sharif's PML mostly Punjabi centred
  • Bhuttos PPP mostly Sindhi centred
  • Altaf's MQM mostly Indian migrant centred in Karachi
Imran Khan won at the federal elections because he managed to win Punjab also in addition to his power centre in Khyber Pakhtunkwa.
 

VCheng

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
488
Reactions
535
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
Pakistan
Read below what I said about "abstract". Which means I excluded loads of events of no import to the over all dynamic. The important thing to note is -

  • Before British arrived with their "Make India" project and press ganged Sindh into the Raj, in this case Bombay Presidency] this area was a independant emirate.
  • the Sindhi's have their own history, their own language, their own culture.

Well, all the mental gymnastics being deployed to deny that India is the historical and geographical land between the Sind in the West, Himalayas in the North, the Irrawaddy to the East, and Sri Lanka to the South all come to naught inevitably, given the facts in evidence.

Please carry on as you wish with your farcical fantasy that somehow the Indus Valley civilization underpins modern day Pakistan.

It simply does not.
 

VCheng

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
488
Reactions
535
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
Pakistan
What facts?

Let's take it to a dedicated thread if you'd like to discuss it further.

For this thread, let us put the responsibility for implementing solutions where it belongs: the Prime Minister. What is he doing to fulfill his clear responsibility, regardless of how we got here.
 

Saithan

Experienced member
Denmark Correspondent
Messages
8,161
Reactions
21 18,782
Nation of residence
Denmark
Nation of origin
Turkey
What can PM Imran Khan do? Not much. Under Pakistani constitution the federal government in Islamabad has limited powers to adress development issues. Most of these are with remit of provincial governments. Imran Khan's PTI holds federal government, Khyber Pakhtunwa Province and Punjab province. Sindh is held by PPP with MQM dominating Karachi.

Something to note here. Most parties in Pakistan are clustered around ethnic/provinces. So -

  • Imran Khans PTI was until recently mostly Pakhtun centred around Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province
  • Nawaz Sharif's PML mostly Punjabi centred
  • Bhuttos PPP mostly Sindhi centred
  • Altaf's MQM mostly Indian migrant centred in Karachi
Imran Khan won at the federal elections because he managed to win Punjab also in addition to his power centre in Khyber Pakhtunkwa.

Aren't there any intelligence agencies that would work behind the scenes and dispose of such criminal gangs ? I would imagine even the military has it's own intelligence unit.

Corruption one after another an evil circle that can only be brought down if the military works as a single state guardian entity to clean up politics.

I imagine if the military waltzes into Karachi the corrupt officials find holes to hide in.
 

Follow us on social media

Top Bottom